Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Does this sound like 2e?

This is a bit long, but here goes:

My 11 yo daughter has just finished 5th grade & has had trouble with spelling since 2nd. I began to notice last year that her reading was not as fluent as my other 2 kids (8 & 13) & this year she has had increasing difficulty with higher order thinking skills (very hard to draw conclusions, etc., & put those thoughts on paper--to the point of tears). She has never been identified as having particular problems as she makes A's & B's with the occasional C & scores high on the FCAT (Florida Competency Assessment Test). She is also a very sweet child who the teachers always seem to fall in love with. I finally managed to get through to a school counselor at the end of this school year & they did an assessment of sorts. I was wondering if anyone could help me understand some of the results.

She was given parts of the NEPSY:

Language
Phonological Processing: Very low
Speeded Naming: Very low
Verbal Fluency: High

Visuospatial Processing
Arrows: Average

Visual-Motor Processing (Beery VMI)
Dev. Age: 11-2; Standard Score: 101; Skill Level: Avg

She was also evaluated by the school speech therapist (not sure what test was used--sounds somewhat like the PPVT from my daughter's description except she was given phrases instead of single words to id the pictures). Anyway, I was told her results were very "glitchy"; meaning that nothing particular was identified but there was something "off".

Lastly, she had the normal hearing/vision screening which were fine except for that she read all the letters backward (right-to-left).

The school psychologist wants to give her a verbal IQ test next year. She has been screened for gifted (SAGES Reasoning) but didn't pass. There is a question of her being gifted with a learning disability, which may have helped her to cope so well up until this point.

As of the beginning of next year, there will be some interventions in place (allow extra time for verbal responses, cue before calling on her, color coding/highlighting, chunking, repeat directions, etc.). After 4 weeks there will be another meeting to check on her progress. The problem is, how do you measure progress when she already makes good grades?

Thanks for any insight any of you might have.

You might want to check out "The Mislabeled Child" by Brock and Fernette Eide.
http://mislabeledchild.com/
It talks about different learning challenges and twice exceptional kids. Some of the things you mention sound consistent with their "stealth dyslexia" characteristics. They say that in gifted kids, a dyslexic processing style often manifests in problems with writing, including spelling challenges, but not necessarily in their reading. Phonological deficits also fit. I don't know about the other stuff. It may be worth checking it out of the library over the summer.

It could be 2e, or it could be an average child, or it could be something else. I can't recall from your other posts, but are your other two gifted? If so, I'd lean more toward wondering about 2e in your 11 y/o given those scores. It will be interesting to see where the IQ test falls out.

What test are they planning to use? With them saying "verbal IQ test," I'm thinking maybe the Slossen. In looking briefly at what the SAGES measures, it wouldn't be surprising that it didn't work for her if she has a LD since it appears that achievement is one component of that test.

Given that her siblings are both in the gifted program, I think it is quite likely that she is either bright or gifted with either an actual learning disability, or at least a bottleneck, where her challenge areas prevent her from showing her full intelligence. It's also possible that the test your school uses to determine elegibility for giftedness is a group test, or a 'screener' that missed giftedness that a private individual IQ test would have picked up.

I don't really know how to show improvement, that is tricky, but I'm wondering about how this issue reflects on your other thread - Is you DH trying to protect DD11's ego by keeping your son at the local school? You say that all the teacher's love DD11 - so I'm wondering if she has DH around her finger a bit? Does she remind him of himself, or one of his siblings?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Yes, DD13 & DS8 are both gifted. DD11 had not been screened before because she does not show many characteristics of giftedness. I guess those may be different if she has a learning disability. The SAGES reasoning test is a screener for gifted; the counselor did modify it a bit in that she let DD11 circle the answers on the actual page instead of transferring them to an answer sheet. But it was still a picture analogy test. I don't know which test the psychologist will use to assess her verbal IQ.

I don't think DH is trying to protect DD11 by wanting to keep DS at the same school. (Maybe he's protecting his mom & sister's egos?) DD11 actually is a lot like me--middle child, moody, sensitive.

Another question: Dyslexia is a medical diagnosis in Florida; would any of you suggest taking her to the pediatrician with the school psychologist's report? I am leaning toward doing that, but I am not sure...

Pediatrician seems like a good step. Perhaps then insurance would pay for an individuiQ test...worth a try.

Pediatrician seems like a good step. Perhaps then insurance would pay for an individuiQ test...worth a try.

The results DO seem to harbor signs of a twice-exceptionality. My results were similar, yet different:

Language

Phonological Processing: average

Analogies: High

Vocabulary (or something like that): Very high


Visuospatial processing

Blocks: Low

Some sort of "which shape goes where?" test" Very low

Visual Connections/analogies: High (Although I came up with some pretty weird ones, like sun is to plants as height is to person, and fire is to water as me is to ground.)



I had two IQ scores: 130 and 97 for the overall IQ. I scored high on verbal IQ the most, along with visual connections, but low on most spacial-orientation things. I also struggled with specific answers (I was vague and cryptic) and "social skills". (eg; I liked to hug people I knew, I was shy around people, books were mostly my friends when I was in her grade...) I also struggled with organization, and I wasn't very athletic...


You can measure her progress by what she does well! When dealing with a twice-exceptional person, base her on her STRENGTHS! Don't make the same mistakes as my teachers did! Please!

I thought I would update this thread on the progress made this school year:
We have been back in school for nearly a month & I met with dd11's teachers as well as her counselor & the speech therapist today. Bottom line is that she is not eligible for an IEP & that I will need to pursue a medical diagnosis (dysgraphia, dyslexia?) in order for her to have a 504 plan. The school is going to do a full language & an IQ evaluation. And, until we have a written plan her teachers agreed to limiting her homework time, allowing her to do her assignments on the computer, backing down from 20 to 15 spelling words, etc. Hopefully, it won't take too long to get her diagnosis/evaluations done & have the 504 plan put in place. I am going to the pediatrician's office tomorrow to get some paperwork to take to the school.

knute: Thanks for pointing me to the info about "stealth dyslexia". I shared it with the school counselor & she found it very informative (as did I).

Violet: I *so* agree with you about measuring progress based on strengths! Thanks for sharing your experience. Thankfully, my daughter has a team of understanding teachers this year.

Grinity: Thanks, as always, for your support.

Ginger -

If the school won't test your daughter in a timely manner and there is any way you can swing it privately, I'd highly recommend taking her to a private psychologist who is experienced in testing kids with special needs and giftedness. The school said my son did not meet the requirements for school testing or services when I asked to have him screened (because he was only 1 year behind and not 2), so we had him tested privately. He was diagnosed with dysgraphia and placed in speech therapy, remedial special ed services for reading and writing at school, and in Occupational Therapy to master difficult tasks through a series of compensation skills.

Yesterday we had his IEP, and because of the intervention, he's gone from reading a year behind grade level to reading 3 years above grade level. His writing proficiency scores on his IQ test increased 22 points in 2 years' time. And he is performing at grade level in all academic areas. We are keeping the IEP in place as a cushion for his move next year into mid-school, but finding the right diagnosis was what put us on the track to finally getting the services and remediation he needed to succeed.

I feel for you; your post resonated with me, because this was the same kind of feedback I was getting when I first began this process with the schools two years ago: he's a bright kid, I can tell, but it just doesn't show in his work ... well, he scored in the normal range, but something is obviously going on that makes it difficult for him...

Listen to your instincts and keep pushing. It's worth it.