Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Does this sound like 2e?

This is a bit long, but here goes:

My 11 yo daughter has just finished 5th grade & has had trouble with spelling since 2nd. I began to notice last year that her reading was not as fluent as my other 2 kids (8 & 13) & this year she has had increasing difficulty with higher order thinking skills (very hard to draw conclusions, etc., & put those thoughts on paper--to the point of tears). She has never been identified as having particular problems as she makes A's & B's with the occasional C & scores high on the FCAT (Florida Competency Assessment Test). She is also a very sweet child who the teachers always seem to fall in love with. I finally managed to get through to a school counselor at the end of this school year & they did an assessment of sorts. I was wondering if anyone could help me understand some of the results.

She was given parts of the NEPSY:

Language
Phonological Processing: Very low
Speeded Naming: Very low
Verbal Fluency: High

Visuospatial Processing
Arrows: Average

Visual-Motor Processing (Beery VMI)
Dev. Age: 11-2; Standard Score: 101; Skill Level: Avg

She was also evaluated by the school speech therapist (not sure what test was used--sounds somewhat like the PPVT from my daughter's description except she was given phrases instead of single words to id the pictures). Anyway, I was told her results were very "glitchy"; meaning that nothing particular was identified but there was something "off".

Lastly, she had the normal hearing/vision screening which were fine except for that she read all the letters backward (right-to-left).

The school psychologist wants to give her a verbal IQ test next year. She has been screened for gifted (SAGES Reasoning) but didn't pass. There is a question of her being gifted with a learning disability, which may have helped her to cope so well up until this point.

As of the beginning of next year, there will be some interventions in place (allow extra time for verbal responses, cue before calling on her, color coding/highlighting, chunking, repeat directions, etc.). After 4 weeks there will be another meeting to check on her progress. The problem is, how do you measure progress when she already makes good grades?

Thanks for any insight any of you might have.

You might want to check out "The Mislabeled Child" by Brock and Fernette Eide.
http://mislabeledchild.com/
It talks about different learning challenges and twice exceptional kids. Some of the things you mention sound consistent with their "stealth dyslexia" characteristics. They say that in gifted kids, a dyslexic processing style often manifests in problems with writing, including spelling challenges, but not necessarily in their reading. Phonological deficits also fit. I don't know about the other stuff. It may be worth checking it out of the library over the summer.

It could be 2e, or it could be an average child, or it could be something else. I can't recall from your other posts, but are your other two gifted? If so, I'd lean more toward wondering about 2e in your 11 y/o given those scores. It will be interesting to see where the IQ test falls out.

What test are they planning to use? With them saying "verbal IQ test," I'm thinking maybe the Slossen. In looking briefly at what the SAGES measures, it wouldn't be surprising that it didn't work for her if she has a LD since it appears that achievement is one component of that test.

Given that her siblings are both in the gifted program, I think it is quite likely that she is either bright or gifted with either an actual learning disability, or at least a bottleneck, where her challenge areas prevent her from showing her full intelligence. It's also possible that the test your school uses to determine elegibility for giftedness is a group test, or a 'screener' that missed giftedness that a private individual IQ test would have picked up.

I don't really know how to show improvement, that is tricky, but I'm wondering about how this issue reflects on your other thread - Is you DH trying to protect DD11's ego by keeping your son at the local school? You say that all the teacher's love DD11 - so I'm wondering if she has DH around her finger a bit? Does she remind him of himself, or one of his siblings?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Yes, DD13 & DS8 are both gifted. DD11 had not been screened before because she does not show many characteristics of giftedness. I guess those may be different if she has a learning disability. The SAGES reasoning test is a screener for gifted; the counselor did modify it a bit in that she let DD11 circle the answers on the actual page instead of transferring them to an answer sheet. But it was still a picture analogy test. I don't know which test the psychologist will use to assess her verbal IQ.

I don't think DH is trying to protect DD11 by wanting to keep DS at the same school. (Maybe he's protecting his mom & sister's egos?) DD11 actually is a lot like me--middle child, moody, sensitive.

Another question: Dyslexia is a medical diagnosis in Florida; would any of you suggest taking her to the pediatrician with the school psychologist's report? I am leaning toward doing that, but I am not sure...

Pediatrician seems like a good step. Perhaps then insurance would pay for an individuiQ test...worth a try.

Pediatrician seems like a good step. Perhaps then insurance would pay for an individuiQ test...worth a try.

The results DO seem to harbor signs of a twice-exceptionality. My results were similar, yet different:

Language

Phonological Processing: average

Analogies: High

Vocabulary (or something like that): Very high


Visuospatial processing

Blocks: Low

Some sort of "which shape goes where?" test" Very low

Visual Connections/analogies: High (Although I came up with some pretty weird ones, like sun is to plants as height is to person, and fire is to water as me is to ground.)



I had two IQ scores: 130 and 97 for the overall IQ. I scored high on verbal IQ the most, along with visual connections, but low on most spacial-orientation things. I also struggled with specific answers (I was vague and cryptic) and "social skills". (eg; I liked to hug people I knew, I was shy around people, books were mostly my friends when I was in her grade...) I also struggled with organization, and I wasn't very athletic...


You can measure her progress by what she does well! When dealing with a twice-exceptional person, base her on her STRENGTHS! Don't make the same mistakes as my teachers did! Please!

I thought I would update this thread on the progress made this school year:
We have been back in school for nearly a month & I met with dd11's teachers as well as her counselor & the speech therapist today. Bottom line is that she is not eligible for an IEP & that I will need to pursue a medical diagnosis (dysgraphia, dyslexia?) in order for her to have a 504 plan. The school is going to do a full language & an IQ evaluation. And, until we have a written plan her teachers agreed to limiting her homework time, allowing her to do her assignments on the computer, backing down from 20 to 15 spelling words, etc. Hopefully, it won't take too long to get her diagnosis/evaluations done & have the 504 plan put in place. I am going to the pediatrician's office tomorrow to get some paperwork to take to the school.

knute: Thanks for pointing me to the info about "stealth dyslexia". I shared it with the school counselor & she found it very informative (as did I).

Violet: I *so* agree with you about measuring progress based on strengths! Thanks for sharing your experience. Thankfully, my daughter has a team of understanding teachers this year.

Grinity: Thanks, as always, for your support.

Ginger -

If the school won't test your daughter in a timely manner and there is any way you can swing it privately, I'd highly recommend taking her to a private psychologist who is experienced in testing kids with special needs and giftedness. The school said my son did not meet the requirements for school testing or services when I asked to have him screened (because he was only 1 year behind and not 2), so we had him tested privately. He was diagnosed with dysgraphia and placed in speech therapy, remedial special ed services for reading and writing at school, and in Occupational Therapy to master difficult tasks through a series of compensation skills.

Yesterday we had his IEP, and because of the intervention, he's gone from reading a year behind grade level to reading 3 years above grade level. His writing proficiency scores on his IQ test increased 22 points in 2 years' time. And he is performing at grade level in all academic areas. We are keeping the IEP in place as a cushion for his move next year into mid-school, but finding the right diagnosis was what put us on the track to finally getting the services and remediation he needed to succeed.

I feel for you; your post resonated with me, because this was the same kind of feedback I was getting when I first began this process with the schools two years ago: he's a bright kid, I can tell, but it just doesn't show in his work ... well, he scored in the normal range, but something is obviously going on that makes it difficult for him...

Listen to your instincts and keep pushing. It's worth it.

Ginger, until they've done a FULL evaluation in ALL areas of suspected disability, they are not legally allowed to say she doesn't qualify for an IEP! If you think she needs any services at all from the school (any kind of remediation at all), then you should try hard to get the IEP. A 504 will provide accommodations (like reduced spelling list) but not any services to remediate the difficulties.

Right away, before they do their eval, you should send them a letter asking them to evaluate for "disorder of written expression" (dysgraphia does not always exist for schools) as well as language issues and anything else you think is affecting her schoolwork or participation.

You may want to do some reading at wrightslaw.com or get their book From Emotions to Advocacy-- this details your child's rights.

DeeDee

Thanks, DeeDee, I will check into that... So many things to consider. I feel like I could use a lawyer sometimes.

Wow ! Sounds like the school is more than meeting you half way. I love that they are providing 'temporary accomidations' while they get the testing done. My hunch is that even without an IEP to 'make' the school help her, the school may give her services because it is their mission to help children. 'getting your legal rights' may not be as important as figuring out what your dd's needs are, and meeting them, one way or another.

I'm a terrible speller, and it's sort of like other bodily functions - it is embarassing to be caught in public, but it's rare that any real harm is done. The difficulty with higher order thinking skills worries me more.

If you aren't familiar with this afterschooling company, I would take a look and see if you can intigrate this into your homelife:

http://www.criticalthinking.com/sea...;code2=p&catalog3=p&x=17&y=8

The Critical Thinking Co.

I used their graphic organizer book as a mega-bribe during the elementary years. The cool thing about Gifted Kids is that sometimes if you hothouse just a little bit, they leap forwards.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

That could happen. In our experience, though, it's unlikely. Actual services (such as PT, OT, speech, remediation of dyslexia by a reading specialist) are doled out minute by minute to those who qualify for them through testing and push for them in meetings. For children with IEPs, there is supposed to be federal and state money flowing into the school to fund those services. For children with no IEP, there is no extra money coming in: the school would be paying out of pocket. It happens, but not too frequently.

If you only need the accommodations (adjustments to assignments, that sort of thing), that's awesome, because they don't tend to cost the school any extra money and are much easier to get.

Wishing you luck,

DeeDee

I spoke with the reading specialist at the school yesterday as she was unable to attend the meeting. I asked about the IEP vs. 504. She has 2 (college-aged) children of her own with similar cases to my daughters who are under one of the older models so they have IEPs. Her advice was to make sure that the 504 accommodations (if that is all that my daughter needs) will be enforceable in college. Because her kids continue to need those.

I do get your point, DeeDee, about the services & her need to qualify for them. I will closely monitor that aspect of this process. Thanks for the heads-up. I have found this counselor & group of teachers extremely helpful & willing to work with my daughter. But it has taken a long time to get to this point & I want to make sure we get everything taken care of properly so we don't find ourselves back here again in the future.

Thanks for the resource, Grinity. I will check into it. I like the metaphor of hothousing; all 3 of my kids fall into that at times. Actually, so do I.

I just want to point out that if you request an evaluation in writing, they district has to do it within 60 days. If the district does an evaluation and you disagree with the results, you are legally entitled to a private evaluation at public expense. The schools often use people who are not licensed psychologists to do their evaluations, and for a child who may be 2e, you need the evaluation to be done by a real expert, not just someone trained to administer tests.

The difference in the comprehensiveness and quality of the professional evaluation that we obtained under this provision and the evaluation that the school had done its own did was shocking. It was definitely worth it to insist on the outside opinion.

I am basing this primarily on these:

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/300-independent-educational-evaluation-19759442

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/julqtr/34cfr300.301.htm

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/julqtr/34cfr300.304.htm

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/julqtr/34cfr300.305.htm

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/julqtr/34cfr300.502.htm


A brief summary of the relevant sections is provided here:

http://www.behavioralinstitute.org/...hoeducational%20evaluation_factsheet.pdf

The law here appears to be on the side of the parent and child. The school is, naturally, on their own side, and I believe that parents should never forget that.

Sorry about posting the wrong links - here are the current ones.

34 CFR 300 Subpart D, EVALUATIONS, ELIGIBILITY DETERMINATIONS, INDIVIDUALIZED EDUCATION PROGRAMS, AND EDUCATIONAL PLACEMENTS

34 CFR 300 Subpart D link

34 CFR 300 Section E, PROCEDURAL SAFEGUARDS DUE PROCESS PROCEDURES FOR PARENTS AND CHILDREN

34 CFR 300 Section E link

34 CFR 300.502 Independent Evaluations
34 CFR 300.502 link

I tried to reply to this thread quite some time ago but kept getting booted out.
@aculady: thank you so much for the link to the CFR site. Invaluable.

Newest update: school did RIAS IQ test, dd scored 131. Nonverbal reasoning skills were highest score. APAT (auditory processing) was all over the map. Her scores looked like a scatter plot. OWLS (oral & written lang. scale) given twice, 5 months apart: 1st time receptive score was 79, which is below average; 2nd time 113 which is high average.
I was referred by her pediatrician to have neuro-psych testing done & went to a psychologist who submitted a preliminary report to insurance. But all they would approve testing for was the same stuff the school had already done.
So I called the school counselor & she was able to get a Notice of Refusal to Take a Specific Action which I took back to the pediatrician yesterday. He was initially going to refer her to a pediatric psycho-neurologist, but then told me about a study being done at UF that she may qualify for which is being funded by a grant. I don't know yet if they are going to accept her case, but he seemed pretty sure that this was the kind of data they might be looking for.
And on it goes...

I have continued this thread here: new topic with results of dd's evaluation, 504, etc.