Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Gifted or Aspergers/ASD?

Hi there,

I am nervous to even ask...but I have been on the fence with my almost 5 year old son for quite some time. While I have generally never felt compelled to get him tested, I do always notice certain behaviors that aren't typical. Without posting his entire history, I'll just say he is very bright, has a great facility with numbers, math, memory, reading since age 2-3, has been learning French for a year and is quite talented with accent and vocabulary and sentence structure, has a facility with music (playing simple songs on a piano). Has strong fine motor skills, excellent handwriting, capacity for art (but not high interest)...etc.

Socially I think most people might not notice any quirks, but I sometimes do. He is very friendly and social, everyone remarks on how social and sweet and friendly he is saying hi and hugging his friends etc. But he does act overly "silly" sometimes and I feel like I do a lot of coaching about social rules and feelings and how not to laugh TOO loudly/long, hard to explain but that stuff doesn't come as easily.

His teacher last year I think suspected he might have HFA (because her son does) -- never came out and said it but I felt she did. But his teacher this year gave me a detailed eval of how he does everything so well, behavior wise, social, everything. She thinks he should skip Kindergarten, but of course I disagree.

A couple of my concerns are that he effortlessly memorized all his preschool classmates' birthdays, spellings of first and last names, addresses and phone numbers (the class worked on these as a group) and always notices license plates and remembers them, dates etc.

Is it possible that this falls under the gifted category? I'm nervous for the answer, so please be gentle

Thank you!

Thanks Dottie. I definitely see what you mean -- and I also think he has asynchronous development. I do expect a lot from him and tend to go overboard nipping any "strange" behaviors in the bud before they get out of control.

But then there are certain things that are clearly not normal like when he had a friend over I guess she was saying she doesn't like dogs (he thought she did and should like dogs) and he went and got his library book and showed her about how friends shouldn't tease. I think he totally misunderstood the situation. He thought she was teasing him or something. And he'll say "You're joking" sometimes, misusing this terminology. Subtle things. I'm never sure if there is something wrong in his brain or if I am expecting him to understand things that he shouldn't yet.

Add'l info: He writes and spells quite well. Phonetically sometimes and memorization sometimes with the letter order slightly wrong. He keeps a journal (I make him) and writes a few sentences about his day almost every day since almost 4 to now.

The whole number memorization thing though? Is that possible under a sole gifted label?

Hi Surfbaby,

First off, you're not alone in having these concerns about your DS. When my DS was 2-5, I really thought that there was something to be concerned about. Now I understand that what I saw is just part of his quirky GT personality.

As far as the silliness goes, I would suggest you not worry about that at all. In DS's SECOND grade (so 7-8 year olds), there are still boys who are not yet able to control their silliness/laughing. And many gifted kids develop asynchronously, so their emotional maturity level may not match their highly-mature academic level.

On the other point of your DS's ability to effortlessly memorize things, IMHO I would see that as a sign of potential giftedness but not a concern unless there were red flags of a problem. Some of those beautiful brains are just wired so differently from those of their agemates. But that's what we're all doing at this forum, right?

FYI -- my DS8 (who we took to a psychologist when he was 5 because we were concerned and we were told he was just fine) still has odd ways of reacting to what people say. Sometimes it seems like his over-sensitivity to fairness or right/wrong kick in. Other times, he just seems to analyze the meaning of things more than most. Bottom line is that he thinks very differently from other people, but we've come to understand that's just who he is and it's nothing to worry about.

I'm sure others will chime in. Hang in there!

Is this a teacher you would generally trust, aside from her recommendation that he skip K? If it is, then I would be inclined to believe that this teacher, having been exposed to a large number of children over her time teaching, might have a better perspective on what's normal for a 4 or 5 year old than you do. It can be hard for us parents to have a realistic expectation for behavior when 1) our children are not average and 2) we ourselves are most likely not average. I like Grinity's term "outer-directed perfectionism." (I hope I'm quoting this correctly!)

From what you describe, your DS does seem to have some awareness of getting along socially, even if he hasn't yet mastered the nuances of it. I think it sounds normal for him to ocassionally misunderstand social interactions since he's only been on this planet for a few short years and social interactions are quite complicated. When you read books together, is he able to discuss with you what different characters might be feeling? When you talk to him as you carry on with your daily activities, does he express how he feels or how other people might feel? If so, then I think he shows some behaviors uncharacteristic of HFA. But I'm not an expert. If you continue to have nagging feelings, watch him, since it is important to listen to your mommy-gut. But, in the mean-time, try to watch other kids his age and how they interact to see if your DS is really acting much differently.

Thank you SO much for responding you guys! I am so thankful bc I don't feel alone on this.

Yes, I agree I see this silliness with boys a LOT and then think..well he's not THAT bad. AND usually when I tell him to stop, or call attention to it he says "Okay" with a reluctant smile. I think he gets caught up in the fun of it all which I guess is somewhat normal, I just wish he was out of that phase already

mnmom23, thank you for asking questions:

When we read books together, yes he totally understands all the characters' feelings, motives etc. When I ask him about daily things...last year it was quite a struggle to get info out of him. This year he is more facile with this but he does sometimes/often struggle with putting his sentences together. How do I explain this? He can answer questions but doesn't go on and on about anything. Like it's kind of too much effort if we ask too many questions. And when we have to have "talks" about behavior or something he agonizes that I'm talking to much! Also with the talking, when he asks us questions out of the blue, he will often have to ask it a second or third time until I can understand what he is talking about. Something about giving context to the question and/or just getting the words out. But overall I wouldn't really suspect and speech issues, but that's just me.

He does sympathize with everyone, not concerned with that. Always seeking emotional and physical affection, giving it too. Always wants friends over but in the past often has trouble sharing toys once they get here. I am always reminding him to play WITH the other kid if you want them over so badly. But it's coming along.

That's the thing, I coach him a lot but he really learns quite well from my coaching.

Doesn't have any strong interests that isolate him - just really interested in numbers, always notices them. Shapes too and colors. He is quite advanced in math for his age too and understands new math concepts quite easily. Computations come easily but so do larger math concepts. He used to be "overly fascinated" with counting numbers, digital clocks, countdowns but is largely over it. I never considered it obsessive, just very fascinated if that makes sense.

Sorry if too much info, this is such a complicated thing though

Oh, and yes I do trust this teacher. She is very calm, observant and experienced. It is her 12th year teaching this class. After his teacher's concerns (which were never overtly discussed) last year I told myself that if his new teacher had concerns I'd get him tested. But she did not relay any concerns. Hard to explain but my gut tells me she is attuned to the kids really well.

Okay also. As long as I'm going on and on.

He did early intervention from ages 18 months to 24 months. He was delayed with speech and walking until age 16-17 months about. So they started with developmental play therapy. At 18 months he exploded with everything, talking, numbers, letters, letter sounds, shapes, colors and everything. SHe stayed on for those six months, concerned about his perseveration on numbers and letters. We eliminated them from his life and focused on everything else. Didn't "let" him read and learn math until 3rd bday. He used to have little intonation in speech, more of a flat expression and not overly social. Now he is just about normal I'd say with all that.

My other son is 18 months now and is CLEARLY different. SO social, engaged etc. So funny, always bringing us things, pointing.
Older son did not do these things but also I dont' think I encouraged it nearly as much as I should have (first time mom, clueless).

Hope this helps color the picture...

I agree with Nan. Don't totally rule out skipping. It has worked well for many of our kids. But it does lead me to ask another question: Does your DS have the opportunity to interact with kids older than he is? If so, do you see any differences in how he relates to the older children? Perhaps the difficulty you're seeing in your DS interacting with other kids is that the kids are his chronological age rather than closer to his mental age and he just has much less in common with his agemates.

As far as the late speech and walking and then an explosion of ability, is your DS a perfectionist? I think some of our kiddos who tend toward perfectionistic sometimes wait to show their abilities in things until they are certain they can do it well enough. Then there is also that whole Einstein theory/late-talker theory that these kids brains are so focused on more analytical and mathmatical tasks that their verbal and/or physical development can take a back seat for a while.

Thank you NanRos and mnmom23. To answer your question, he has some opportunity to interact with kids older than he (and I am aware that this can be a distinguishing behavoir) - really mostly his cousins and a couple neighbor boys. The neighbor friends are 5-6 years old and I would say he acts much better with older than younger boys. With the younger, he can regress and get very emotionally escalated if the younger boy doesn't share or hits him or something. The older boys are generally calmer and more dominant and he goes along with what they want to do. BUT I wouldn't say that his emotional or social or intellectual maturity "elevates" when around older kids...like he's in his element with them. No, he is still slightly immature and kind of tends to be focused on what he wants to do, sometimes tattles. And since his only strong interest is math, it's not something he can really bond with others about and I doubt he would. It's mostly for solitary enjoyment I think. Does that answer the question enough to help?

mnmom23 - I just saw your post about perfectionism - not sure how I missed it the first time.

But YES! You hit the nail on the head with that. I totally remember just knowing that he didn't want to walk until he KNEW he could do it right. Same with almost all the gross motor stuff. He didn't want to try, too hard, blah blah but then once he set his mind to it, voila! Easy, I want to do it... etc. And with the talking, once he started, he had perfect articulation. My younger son does "baby talk" which is so adorable, first time experiencing it!

I think he is somewhat a perfectionist in that he resists trying things if they are not pretty easy for him. I have bought gifted workbooks and while I know he can do some of the problems, and he DOES do them, he prefers not to challenge himself. Although maybe this is not gifted behavior at all! He challenges himself in some ways but not others but almost exclusively LEARNS independently. He isn't obsessive compulsive in any ways, perfectionism wise.

He is complicated I think!!!

Also interesting is that my second son crawled (9.5-10mo) and walked(16-18mo) at exactly the same age as first did and I already talked about how different they are.

Surfbaby -- your DS sounds much like one of mine who got EI, talked and walked late and then just exploded. He's also into rules, can memorize anything, and can be a little intense for age peers at times. Yet he is social overall, well-liked overall by adults and children, and he does not have any ASD.

For him, I think he's an introvert and so can get overwhelmed by too much social stuff. He has high expectations for his own behavior, but this takes effort and it's hard for him to maintain that forever. He needs breaks to be silly at times.

In terms of memorizing, he was into counting and memorizing stuff as a preschooler. Now that he's been tested, he's just got a WMI >99.9 and he effortlessly takes in huge amounts of info and holds onto it. It doesn't make him Aspie, just really good at memorizing.

FWIW, based on board posts and from a position of never having met your kiddo, nothing you've said raises any red flags. He just sounds smart to me.

Surfbaby - you DS sounds a lot like my DS5 in a bunch of ways. He really sounds like a gifted quirky kid. That's definitely how my guy is. He is quite extroverted and always has been great at memorizing everything (license plates, phone numbers, etc). It just comes easy to him. He has always been into numbers, letters, etc. He is socially much better with adults than kids his age. He acts "silly" (for lack of a better word because I really can't describe it) with peers his age, or mostly when there is a lot going on and seems overstimulated (that is my guess at this point). My theory with the behaviors with kids his age as he isn't quite sure how to relate with them because he sees how different they are. They have completely different interests then him for the most part. I think he interprets them as much different. He also can act immature and "silly" with older kids and adults too, but it is not at much at all. He does experiment sometimes. Like he will wonder what will happen and then will try something out to see. He pushes limits more with people that don't have clear limits becaue he wants to know and understand what they are. I think it is hard too because he is such a little man and always has been. I constantly say to myself "okay, he is 5 and it's okay if he wants to act goofy a bit...even though it doesn't makes sense at all to me" He is just a little goofy sometimes, and that's okay. It is nice sometimes because it reminds me that he is a kid.

My DS enjoys challenging himself, but isn't used to not getting something right away. He can be very patient and work hard, but having to work at something for a long time and not get it is quite foreign to him.

Oh, and we skipped K with DS5 and it seems to be working well. He is a HG+ kid and I don't think K would have been a good fit for him at all. He gets a ton of differentiation in first now.

Good luck, glad to see you on here and learn more about your DS.

Okay I'm learning a lot. I really appreciate everyone's comments!

So it sounds like we're not alone and there are others like DS. For those with similar boys, did you feel like you had to do a lot of social teaching/coaching in those preschool years to make up for the asynchronous development? I know I put a lot more effort into this area of parenting than I expected. Examples:
- Since he loved numbers, I had to teach him when it's appropriate to include numbers in discussion and how to eliminate most of the number chit chat. Like don't ask adults how old they are, what year they were born!! He often wanted to (still sometimes) add in extraneous info about what time things happened, the start and end times of his nap etc. He is learning though. He tells me he just loves numbers! Well duh, but I don't need all that info!
- We had about a year (age 2-3) where we would have to put post its over microwaves and digital clocks so he could focus on other things besides number countdowns Thankfully he is over this.
- Recently I've had to explain that it's not appropriate to think or say another kid is "mean" just because they accidentally bumped into you! After I explain it he gets it, but his instinct is wrong.
- I do have to remind him about eye contact and responding right away when someone says his name. It doesn't come very naturally but he does it when reminded.

Well, DS5 likes me to give him algebra problems in the car for fun. Thankfully I find that he doesn't ask for this if I have classical music on (he loves classical) and he hums and sings away and that keeps his brain busy. When younger while driving he would count everything (mailboxes, street markers, etc.) I do probably do some extra social teaching, but ironically I am a school social worker so I do this all day at work. I probably don't even notice it when I do it. He seems to know when not to talk about certain stuff at all and if not, he at least gets when I am unable to talk about it. He usually doesn't go on and on about things, but occasionally does about contraptions and different things if he is really into it. He does misinterpret social situations at times. And he seems to think everything should be fair and that somehow fair is the same as equal, which is not always true. He has great eye contact at times, and other times he needs reminders because he if off focused on other things, or thoughts in his head. He is often thinking, he is like an absent minded professor. He doesn't always respond when he is humming songs. My DS5 is also extreme and will say things that clearly aren't true like "all you ever want to do is say no when I ask you things" (this said to me this morning when I didn't want him to bring his erector set to grandmas to play with after school, but asked him to bring a smaller toy that I could carry easier). When I clarify and say things like "do you really believe that I say no all the time, or do you mean that you are upset because I said no this time?" then he gets it. It's the asynchrony. He is trying to figure things out and can be emotional at times. Not all the time thankfully, but he will get emotional and somewhat unreasonable at times when he thinks things should be a certain way.

freaky memory plus a hearty dose of silliness describes my DD3.9. My DD is a little over the top too and I spend a lot of time trying to help tone her down in social situations. She is very young but appears to be gifted and may have very mild sensory seeking tendancies that cause her to be a bit more intense, but it could be good old fashioned "over-excitabilities." He sounds like a normal gifted kid to me.

My DS8 had a number of things in common with your DS around that age. He was a perfectionist and while not speaking or walking late - he did wait on those until he was sure and then things came in giant leaps. I asked numerous times about autism or similar disorders. At this point, everyone has said that he is PG mathmatically (with a very strong memory and verbal IQ), but does not have any form of autism. (He may have some amount of ADD - very disorganized and forgetful with things - I don't think your son has any signs of this. I am a bit undecided on whether I agree with that diagnosis or not - want to see if anything changes in fulltime GT program next year.)

He had the phase of always watching clocks and I remember several discussions about when it is okay to add numbers to a conversation. (By the way, his math has really taken off this year - second grade - they just started letting him work online at his own pace in school in place of regular math a couple of weeks ago and now he is more than 3/4 done with pre-algebra.)

Your child sounds wonderful, and as one who has experience with autism (more experience than I would like to have), and also experience with mathematicians, I think your child sounds more like a mathematician than someone with autism. Of course that is a little joke (and a silly one I admit), but truly your child sounds fine. I would not worry about having to do some social skills training now and then. Not everything comes naturally to everyone, and many young kids (especially boys) need a little social skills coaching now and then.

We had the 'exploded' thing too - aged 3 my DS now 7, couldn't ride a trike - within weeks of PT, he had accelerated faster in his gross motor skills than the therapist had ever seen and was riding without training wheels before 5. Again, aged 3, his coloring/pencil grip - nothing - now he has superb handwriting (self-taught cursive), and excellent drawing skills. It still is a 'perfectionist' issue though and he can drive us crazy with his 'I can'ts' that magically transform into accelerated stuff. Kind of getting used to it, but then there's the next new thing .... .
Anyway, to the point, your boy sounds very similar to mine in development, and I've really been there with the sleepless nights, researching etc, but yours really does sound gifted rather than ASD IMHO. My DS is totally a Math guy too, and as people on this site have re-assured me, Math excellence can be just that.
There is so much in the news at the moment about ASD (which is a good thing in many ways and many cases), that those of us with GT Math kids, almost feel that our kids are bound to be on the spectrum somewhere - as if it's a way of accounting for the ability.
Just a suggestion, maybe you could try looking at his behaviors physically/socially/emotionally without the 'blinkers' of knowing that he is so mathematical. I don't mean that to sound rude, and I find it hard to do, but taking out the 'numbers' you may see how he does socially in a different light.