Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC-IV -- topping out & crazy score deviations

Hi, everyone. I am new here, at least as a registered user. I've lurked around a bit in the past, though, and gained some valuable insight in the process.

I'm finally registering and posting because I need some experience and guidance to help me navigate this IQ test craziness. I finally gave in and got my son (now 8) IQ tested. I'd resisted because, well, I knew he was brilliant, but he's also twice-exceptional. He has some serious ADHD-type issues. I say ADHD-type because our psychologist (who did the testing) isn't convinced he has true ADHD per se, only that he has clinical inattention/impulsivity issues. I was worried he wouldn't be tested to his potential, so I never got it done. But I started feeling recently that my reluctance was doing him a disservice. So I got recommendations from other parents and found a local psychologist who works with gifted kids.

Well, she tested him on the WISC-IV, and today DH and I met with her to get the results. He topped out on the VCI in two subtests (vocab and similarities) and scored only slightly lower on the comprehension subtest (a 99.6 percentile with scaled score of 18, rather than >99.9 as on the other two). His overall perceptual reasoning scores were not as high, though he topped out the Matrix Reasoning subtest.

However, his Working Memory score was really out-of-whack. She said seeing WMI lower in gifted kids isn't unusual, but his was three standard deviations below his VCI and two SD's below his PRI. She said this was more than notable, and advised us not to really pay attention to the FSIQ because of this discrepancy. (His Processing Speed tests were lower than VCI and PRI, too, but only one or two SD's lower, which she said was notable but not totally unexpected, and she doesn't give a lot of credence to that metric with gifted kids, because they're actually somewhat penalized for deep thinking.)

I came home and did some research on all of this, and I'm not really sure what to make of all these scores. She was particularly concerned because the discrepancy in the WM score resulted in a FSIQ of only 135, but she feels like he needs to be in programs for profoundly gifted kids, and she knows those often start qualifying at 140. She said some programs will accept his composite scores from VCI and PRI as evidence of extreme giftedness...but of course, I'm looking at these thinking that those scores are too low because he topped out on several of the subtests.

So, I guess what I want to know is what you all would do in my situation? Should we try to find someone else to test him using the Stanford-Binet? I know there are "extended norm" scores for the WISC-IV -- is this a better solution? We of course paid out-of-pocket for this testing, so that is a consideration. I am not unhappy -- I feel like we got really valuable information from the testing: basically, that his working memory deficits -- compared to the VCI and PRI, anyway -- are substantial even in the gifted community. (His Digit Span subtest was a real issue -- he was in the 25th percentile for that one. With letter-number sequencing, he at least popped up to 63rd percentile, though his WMI was actually below average at 97.)

Has anyone else encountered discrepancies this severe? Do you have advice for what I should take away from this in terms of his overall abilities? The psychologist was adamant that I should really look at the PRI and VCI to measure his actual intellectual ability, but when he topped out there...what does that mean?

I'm kind of in a tizzy about all this...I would deeply appreciate any guidance from the more seasoned navigators of this tricky testing field.

***Editing after initial posting to add another question***
I just found the WISC-IV Test Report 4 that shows how to calculate the GAI. His GAI score is 153. Should I just chill out and go with that?

Thanks so much!

Alyson

Alyson,

Absolutely go with GAI scores. Apply to Young Scholar's Program. I find it so interesting that they are only looking for subscale scores not full scale scores.

I'm reading Dee Lovecky's 'Different Minds' right now and she teases out Gifteness with ADD and AS. Very interesting.

In a way I think it's a great idea to learn more about workinig memory and do some informal working memory testing/training at home. We play a word game where one person chooses a few letters, and the other people have to come up with a word that has all those letters in it. It's interesting to watch what happens in my brain when it gets up to 4 letters. I keep watching my 'average' working memory fall apart. DH can do 4 letters without a problem, and I'll bet he could do more if asked. DS is more comfortable with 3, but can do 4 if he's relaxed. I think these games are good to help see 'what is working memory/why is it important' and also practice always helps, or you can give him some paper and pencil and show him how much easier the game is if he can write down the numbers.

There is also the possiblity that you will find a slender area where your son's WM is pretty strong, and then you can teach him to use that approach when he reaches his edge.

For example, if I put things to a tune, then I suddently have tons of working memory.

I think evaluating ADD in PG kids is a very tricky thing, and if there is such a thing as 'a special kind of ADD that only PG and near PG kids have' what is the point of calling it ADD? Any yet, it really helps to realize that your child is 2E and reaching his potential is going to be a bumpier road than a child who is just plain gifted.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Yes, that's almost exactly what my dd#2's WISC-IV results looked like when she was 7.5. She had four scores at 18 btwn the PRI and VCI if I recall correctly. Her PRI total was at the 99th and VCI total was at the 99.7th, so not quite as high as your ds's. Her WMI and PSI were both avg (btwn the 50th to 60-something). I, obviously, don't have the scores in front of me. I do recall, though, that the tester was unfamiliar with the GAI and just gave us a FSIQ of 130. When I pulled the GAI off the technical report #4, it came out at 148. I really should take a look at technical report #7 & see if those 18s would go up with extended norms, though. If her EXPLORE scores come out really high, I may give more thought to this. The reason I haven't is that we got a really unofficial looking report that I doubt would work for Davidson b/c it's not even on letterhead! I do have the WISC forms with all of the raw scores as well, though.

We had dd retested almost exactly a year later b/c she is very, very erratic and we just don't know what is going on with her. I was concerned about a 2E issue. The psych who tested her didn't seem concerned with her PRI dropping from the 99th to the 75th percentile and chalked it up to "fluctuation" in abilities. Her PRI went from the 99.7th to the 99th, so probably not as big of a drop. Her WMI and PSI were, again, fairly avg. The psych said that she didn't have any learning disabilities b/c her WIAT scores were all in the 98t & 99th percentile but then she also gave me identical WIAT scores using age norms & grade norms which I can't imagine is correct since she is quite young for grade. So, I figure that her true age norms are actually higher or her true grade norms are actually lower. I just don't know which one it is.

eta: her GAI the second time was 20 points lower -- at the 97th percentile rather than the 99.9th from the first testing. The kiddo makes my head spin. My biggest concern with her is that she is convinced that she isn't very bright

Long story short, my other dd is low on PSI in comparison to the other three indices, but nothing like this. Despite being assured that dd doesn't have anything else going on, having both of those two indices that much lower is a red flag for me. My gut tells me that there is something else going on in my dd's case. I wouldn't rule out twice exceptionality.

Have you had any achievement testing done such that you can see if there is a big ability/achievement discrepancy?

Our experience was very similar with my DS, then 11. He had straight 19s on the VCI subtests so had an "extended norms" VCI, with a WMI almost 3 SDs lower and a PSI that was nearly 5 SDs lower (71 spread from highest to lowest scores). It meant a difference of 21 points between FSIQ and GAI.

We have taken him for a vision evaluation and are trying out vision therapy (he tested below average on a lot of the vision tests), but overall he is fine and we are not worrying about it. His processing speed issue doesn't seem to be negatively affecting his schoolwork or timed tests (he took the SAT, for example, and did just fine without any accommodations). So we are keeping keeping an open mind about hidden LDs but at the heart of it I suspect it's just one of those testing things.

First, thank you all SO much for being so willing to share your stories and insight. And Dottie, you're quite right. I totally hadn't looked at it that way, but you're spot-on. It's such a variable, complex meter -- certainly this helped us get a diagnostic snapshot, but it isn't the last word on his WM ability. In fact, the psychologist was very encouraging about the WM. She said that we know you can't "improve" raw intelligence, but that working memory is something that you really can practice on and grow. She wants to work with him on that, as well as his anxiety issues.

And his PRI was 133. (Nice work figuring that from the score info!) With the subtests, His BD and PC were 13 and 14, respectively, but his MR was 19. I figured he topped out on the MR subtest, but I was figuring that if that score were higher with extended norms, the overall PRI might be higher, though I'm not super concerned with that since he's within thresholds to qualify for most gifted programs.

We haven't done any achievement testing, actually. He will be taking a standardized achievement test later this year (Alabama tests 3rd graders). When I picked him up today, I talked to his teacher for a moment (we're going to have a longer meeting about the scores in early March) and gave her an overview. It was funny because I was telling her about the WMI scores and she said that when she reads aloud to the class, he doesn't seem to have trouble recalling things, etc. Then she paused for a second and said, "Wait. Did they use numbers?" I laughed and said yep, that was the lowest score. She said that made more sense, and noted that he is a lot better at complex word problems in math than he is with much more basic number-only arithmetic. She also was concerned that when they take the test in March, he might perform lower than is accurate because the tests are timed. I think he'll probably do fine, but it's a valid concern.

And @Grinity, that's funny about music -- I'm the same way! I used to make up songs for math equations and Spanish vocab in high school to help me cram for tests! I will try some of those WM games with him -- it would probably help me, too!

@Cricket2, I hear you. Like I said, I waited much longer than I maybe should have to get him tested because I was worried about the tester having a good rapport with him and understanding his processes. Because there is a certain subjective element to the scoring, I'd wonder if the 2nd tester just didn't "get" her, and that affected his test administration. When DS was 3, I took him to the local public school testing offices to get him tested for a gifted Pre-K program they had. The tester basically asked him a lot about numbers and never once asked him anything about letters or words. He wasn't (and isn't) a math genius, but he was reading books at 2 years old. She came out of the testing and said basically that he was a sweet kid, but not exceptionally intelligent. The look on my face must have been priceless, because she got immediately defensive. I asked her if she'd even asked him to read or do letters and she looked at me like I was crazy and said, "Of course not. Kids this age aren't supposed to be able to do that." I could have punched her...and she's probably the reason I never got him adequately evaluated until now. But my point is that the testers own expectations and biases can affect results, even with widely-accepted IQ tests. I'm surprised they didn't think the score discrepancies were more notable than they did.

Overall, I think my main concern was that he have a number that accurately reflected his intellectual abilities. And that's not for me or for him, but for schools, etc., that want to assess/place him based on the testing. I wasn't comfortable with 135 because of the extreme deviation issues, but I think 153 is much more in line with his abilities. That's not to say, however, that I want to just forget about that WMI number, of course -- it does give us a really good look at his attention control issues. It's scary to test a 2E kid...well, it was for me, at least. But wow...I feel so much better after posting here and getting your thoughts. Thank you SO much for being both helpful and welcoming!

My oldest, who we are fairly certain isn't 2e had scores that ranged from 8 on BD to 19+ (would have been a 20 with extended scoring) on MR. She is just really stressed by time pressures & BD is timed.

My same slower, oldest kiddo is 11 now. She was in the 90s on all of the WISC subtests (btwn 95th to 98th) except WMI on which she came out at the 42nd percentile. She does quite well on the state tests as well as talent search testing. Even with being slower, the material isn't so hard that she can't get it done in time. The SAT was probably hard enough that she could have used a little extra time, but her scores at 11 won't be in her permanent record .

My verbal memory is very bad, but my visual is very good. When I need to recall something, I keep a visual palette in my mind and array symbols or other objects there. I then modify the objects or symbols as I get more info.

For instance, to remember a shopping list I just place those items on the palette. Or pretty much any list.

For directions, I draw a map in my mind and label it, then drive it.

Since his matrix scores are very high, I would imagine he could learn to use this trick.

That's another great tip! I know I'm much more visual than auditory -- I'm one of those people who asks everyone to email dates, times, plans, etc., because if they tell me, I won't remember, but if I see it, I can visualize it in my head and recall. I never really considered that these might be coping mechanisms I developed to compensate for a poor auditory memory and he just hasn't grasped them yet. I'm going to have to come up with a cool game to work on visual recall -- it will be good for both of us!

Thanks so much for these excellent ideas!

Is there a special kind of ADD that only PG kids have? Is there information out there regarding this topic?

Thank you so much!

It is not like it is a different kind, but that some issues might be more HG++ related and others more ADD related. Then, since HG++ compensate, some symptoms might be more hidden.

A great book to begin with is "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children..." by Dr. James Webb.