Hi, everyone. I am new here, at least as a registered user. I've lurked around a bit in the past, though, and gained some valuable insight in the process.

I'm finally registering and posting because I need some experience and guidance to help me navigate this IQ test craziness. I finally gave in and got my son (now 8) IQ tested. I'd resisted because, well, I knew he was brilliant, but he's also twice-exceptional. He has some serious ADHD-type issues. I say ADHD-type because our psychologist (who did the testing) isn't convinced he has true ADHD per se, only that he has clinical inattention/impulsivity issues. I was worried he wouldn't be tested to his potential, so I never got it done. But I started feeling recently that my reluctance was doing him a disservice. So I got recommendations from other parents and found a local psychologist who works with gifted kids.

Well, she tested him on the WISC-IV, and today DH and I met with her to get the results. He topped out on the VCI in two subtests (vocab and similarities) and scored only slightly lower on the comprehension subtest (a 99.6 percentile with scaled score of 18, rather than >99.9 as on the other two). His overall perceptual reasoning scores were not as high, though he topped out the Matrix Reasoning subtest.

However, his Working Memory score was really out-of-whack. She said seeing WMI lower in gifted kids isn't unusual, but his was three standard deviations below his VCI and two SD's below his PRI. She said this was more than notable, and advised us not to really pay attention to the FSIQ because of this discrepancy. (His Processing Speed tests were lower than VCI and PRI, too, but only one or two SD's lower, which she said was notable but not totally unexpected, and she doesn't give a lot of credence to that metric with gifted kids, because they're actually somewhat penalized for deep thinking.)

I came home and did some research on all of this, and I'm not really sure what to make of all these scores. She was particularly concerned because the discrepancy in the WM score resulted in a FSIQ of only 135, but she feels like he needs to be in programs for profoundly gifted kids, and she knows those often start qualifying at 140. She said some programs will accept his composite scores from VCI and PRI as evidence of extreme giftedness...but of course, I'm looking at these thinking that those scores are too low because he topped out on several of the subtests.

So, I guess what I want to know is what you all would do in my situation? Should we try to find someone else to test him using the Stanford-Binet? I know there are "extended norm" scores for the WISC-IV -- is this a better solution? We of course paid out-of-pocket for this testing, so that is a consideration. I am not unhappy -- I feel like we got really valuable information from the testing: basically, that his working memory deficits -- compared to the VCI and PRI, anyway -- are substantial even in the gifted community. (His Digit Span subtest was a real issue -- he was in the 25th percentile for that one. With letter-number sequencing, he at least popped up to 63rd percentile, though his WMI was actually below average at 97.)

Has anyone else encountered discrepancies this severe? Do you have advice for what I should take away from this in terms of his overall abilities? The psychologist was adamant that I should really look at the PRI and VCI to measure his actual intellectual ability, but when he topped out there...what does that mean?

I'm kind of in a tizzy about all this...I would deeply appreciate any guidance from the more seasoned navigators of this tricky testing field.

***Editing after initial posting to add another question***
I just found the WISC-IV Test Report 4 that shows how to calculate the GAI. His GAI score is 153. Should I just chill out and go with that?

Thanks so much!

Alyson

Alyson,

Absolutely go with GAI scores. Apply to Young Scholar's Program. I find it so interesting that they are only looking for subscale scores not full scale scores.

I'm reading Dee Lovecky's 'Different Minds' right now and she teases out Gifteness with ADD and AS. Very interesting.

In a way I think it's a great idea to learn more about workinig memory and do some informal working memory testing/training at home. We play a word game where one person chooses a few letters, and the other people have to come up with a word that has all those letters in it. It's interesting to watch what happens in my brain when it gets up to 4 letters. I keep watching my 'average' working memory fall apart. DH can do 4 letters without a problem, and I'll bet he could do more if asked. DS is more comfortable with 3, but can do 4 if he's relaxed. I think these games are good to help see 'what is working memory/why is it important' and also practice always helps, or you can give him some paper and pencil and show him how much easier the game is if he can write down the numbers.

There is also the possiblity that you will find a slender area where your son's WM is pretty strong, and then you can teach him to use that approach when he reaches his edge.

For example, if I put things to a tune, then I suddently have tons of working memory.

I think evaluating ADD in PG kids is a very tricky thing, and if there is such a thing as 'a special kind of ADD that only PG and near PG kids have' what is the point of calling it ADD? Any yet, it really helps to realize that your child is 2E and reaching his potential is going to be a bumpier road than a child who is just plain gifted.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Yes, that's almost exactly what my dd#2's WISC-IV results looked like when she was 7.5. She had four scores at 18 btwn the PRI and VCI if I recall correctly. Her PRI total was at the 99th and VCI total was at the 99.7th, so not quite as high as your ds's. Her WMI and PSI were both avg (btwn the 50th to 60-something). I, obviously, don't have the scores in front of me. I do recall, though, that the tester was unfamiliar with the GAI and just gave us a FSIQ of 130. When I pulled the GAI off the technical report #4, it came out at 148. I really should take a look at technical report #7 & see if those 18s would go up with extended norms, though. If her EXPLORE scores come out really high, I may give more thought to this. The reason I haven't is that we got a really unofficial looking report that I doubt would work for Davidson b/c it's not even on letterhead! I do have the WISC forms with all of the raw scores as well, though.

We had dd retested almost exactly a year later b/c she is very, very erratic and we just don't know what is going on with her. I was concerned about a 2E issue. The psych who tested her didn't seem concerned with her PRI dropping from the 99th to the 75th percentile and chalked it up to "fluctuation" in abilities. Her PRI went from the 99.7th to the 99th, so probably not as big of a drop. Her WMI and PSI were, again, fairly avg. The psych said that she didn't have any learning disabilities b/c her WIAT scores were all in the 98t & 99th percentile but then she also gave me identical WIAT scores using age norms & grade norms which I can't imagine is correct since she is quite young for grade. So, I figure that her true age norms are actually higher or her true grade norms are actually lower. I just don't know which one it is.

eta: her GAI the second time was 20 points lower -- at the 97th percentile rather than the 99.9th from the first testing. The kiddo makes my head spin. My biggest concern with her is that she is convinced that she isn't very bright

Long story short, my other dd is low on PSI in comparison to the other three indices, but nothing like this. Despite being assured that dd doesn't have anything else going on, having both of those two indices that much lower is a red flag for me. My gut tells me that there is something else going on in my dd's case. I wouldn't rule out twice exceptionality.

Have you had any achievement testing done such that you can see if there is a big ability/achievement discrepancy?

Our experience was very similar with my DS, then 11. He had straight 19s on the VCI subtests so had an "extended norms" VCI, with a WMI almost 3 SDs lower and a PSI that was nearly 5 SDs lower (71 spread from highest to lowest scores). It meant a difference of 21 points between FSIQ and GAI.

We have taken him for a vision evaluation and are trying out vision therapy (he tested below average on a lot of the vision tests), but overall he is fine and we are not worrying about it. His processing speed issue doesn't seem to be negatively affecting his schoolwork or timed tests (he took the SAT, for example, and did just fine without any accommodations). So we are keeping keeping an open mind about hidden LDs but at the heart of it I suspect it's just one of those testing things.

First, thank you all SO much for being so willing to share your stories and insight. And Dottie, you're quite right. I totally hadn't looked at it that way, but you're spot-on. It's such a variable, complex meter -- certainly this helped us get a diagnostic snapshot, but it isn't the last word on his WM ability. In fact, the psychologist was very encouraging about the WM. She said that we know you can't "improve" raw intelligence, but that working memory is something that you really can practice on and grow. She wants to work with him on that, as well as his anxiety issues.

And his PRI was 133. (Nice work figuring that from the score info!) With the subtests, His BD and PC were 13 and 14, respectively, but his MR was 19. I figured he topped out on the MR subtest, but I was figuring that if that score were higher with extended norms, the overall PRI might be higher, though I'm not super concerned with that since he's within thresholds to qualify for most gifted programs.

We haven't done any achievement testing, actually. He will be taking a standardized achievement test later this year (Alabama tests 3rd graders). When I picked him up today, I talked to his teacher for a moment (we're going to have a longer meeting about the scores in early March) and gave her an overview. It was funny because I was telling her about the WMI scores and she said that when she reads aloud to the class, he doesn't seem to have trouble recalling things, etc. Then she paused for a second and said, "Wait. Did they use numbers?" I laughed and said yep, that was the lowest score. She said that made more sense, and noted that he is a lot better at complex word problems in math than he is with much more basic number-only arithmetic. She also was concerned that when they take the test in March, he might perform lower than is accurate because the tests are timed. I think he'll probably do fine, but it's a valid concern.

And @Grinity, that's funny about music -- I'm the same way! I used to make up songs for math equations and Spanish vocab in high school to help me cram for tests! I will try some of those WM games with him -- it would probably help me, too!

@Cricket2, I hear you. Like I said, I waited much longer than I maybe should have to get him tested because I was worried about the tester having a good rapport with him and understanding his processes. Because there is a certain subjective element to the scoring, I'd wonder if the 2nd tester just didn't "get" her, and that affected his test administration. When DS was 3, I took him to the local public school testing offices to get him tested for a gifted Pre-K program they had. The tester basically asked him a lot about numbers and never once asked him anything about letters or words. He wasn't (and isn't) a math genius, but he was reading books at 2 years old. She came out of the testing and said basically that he was a sweet kid, but not exceptionally intelligent. The look on my face must have been priceless, because she got immediately defensive. I asked her if she'd even asked him to read or do letters and she looked at me like I was crazy and said, "Of course not. Kids this age aren't supposed to be able to do that." I could have punched her...and she's probably the reason I never got him adequately evaluated until now. But my point is that the testers own expectations and biases can affect results, even with widely-accepted IQ tests. I'm surprised they didn't think the score discrepancies were more notable than they did.

Overall, I think my main concern was that he have a number that accurately reflected his intellectual abilities. And that's not for me or for him, but for schools, etc., that want to assess/place him based on the testing. I wasn't comfortable with 135 because of the extreme deviation issues, but I think 153 is much more in line with his abilities. That's not to say, however, that I want to just forget about that WMI number, of course -- it does give us a really good look at his attention control issues. It's scary to test a 2E kid...well, it was for me, at least. But wow...I feel so much better after posting here and getting your thoughts. Thank you SO much for being both helpful and welcoming!

My oldest, who we are fairly certain isn't 2e had scores that ranged from 8 on BD to 19+ (would have been a 20 with extended scoring) on MR. She is just really stressed by time pressures & BD is timed.

My same slower, oldest kiddo is 11 now. She was in the 90s on all of the WISC subtests (btwn 95th to 98th) except WMI on which she came out at the 42nd percentile. She does quite well on the state tests as well as talent search testing. Even with being slower, the material isn't so hard that she can't get it done in time. The SAT was probably hard enough that she could have used a little extra time, but her scores at 11 won't be in her permanent record .

My verbal memory is very bad, but my visual is very good. When I need to recall something, I keep a visual palette in my mind and array symbols or other objects there. I then modify the objects or symbols as I get more info.

For instance, to remember a shopping list I just place those items on the palette. Or pretty much any list.

For directions, I draw a map in my mind and label it, then drive it.

Since his matrix scores are very high, I would imagine he could learn to use this trick.

That's another great tip! I know I'm much more visual than auditory -- I'm one of those people who asks everyone to email dates, times, plans, etc., because if they tell me, I won't remember, but if I see it, I can visualize it in my head and recall. I never really considered that these might be coping mechanisms I developed to compensate for a poor auditory memory and he just hasn't grasped them yet. I'm going to have to come up with a cool game to work on visual recall -- it will be good for both of us!

Thanks so much for these excellent ideas!

Is there a special kind of ADD that only PG kids have? Is there information out there regarding this topic?

Thank you so much!

It is not like it is a different kind, but that some issues might be more HG++ related and others more ADD related. Then, since HG++ compensate, some symptoms might be more hidden.

A great book to begin with is "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children..." by Dr. James Webb.

Hi Alyson, welcome.

I'm the same way as you and Austin. Tell me a name multiple times and I may forget but if it's emailed to me I am much more likely to remember. I think this was a factor in my elementary years as I did not stand out that much in the earliest grades when instructions etc are often verbal. Once things became print based I was able to take off more. Or maybe a coincidence, but it makes a nice story.

Polly

We've found dd#2 to be much more visual as well. She is also easily distractable and tends to visually wander around the room so she often isn't looking at what she needs to be learning. I know that she isn't learning anything if she isn't looking at it, but keeping her attention and vision on the topic at hand can be a challenge. She doesn't have that obvious ADHD physical movement thing going, though, so she doesn't appear as distracted as I've found she is over the years of dealing with her. If we can keep her focus and eyes on the topic, she learns and retains it much better, though.

I do wish that the WISC had both auditory and visual memory tests such that it didn't make the entire memory look poor if it is just poor auditory memory.

Alyson,
It's wonderful that your tester is someone who is willing to work with your son on anxiety (which can depress timed scores - when people are frightened, they react more inflexibly and score lower) and WM. I've never been privileged to work with a tester who is also willing to do any kind of 'talk therapy' or 'teaching/mentoring' with my son. I've gotten 'here's your number - schools won't get him - good bye and good luck.'

I'm not exactly encouraging you to actually go ahead with that offer - you know best about that - but I wanted to take a minute to celebrate the sanity.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Welcome Yoly - great question!

I totally believe that ADD in PG kids is (or can be) such a unique animal that it should qualify as a special kind of ADD. This is a great question, and I encourage you to start a topic about it in the twice exceptional forum, so we can collect whatever been 'dug out of the mist' all in one place.

currently I'm reading :

remember to click on Hoagiesgifted link first before making purchase through Amazon if you decide to buy the book.


Smiles,
Grinity

I think that WISC does test visual memory in the form of Coding. In order to score well on it, you have to memorize the digit-symbol associations and not look at the key all the time.

I found the tables in this Wrightslaw page to be very helpful -- they explain what types of skills each subtest tests. http://wrightslaw.com/advoc/articles/tests_measurements.html#16

From what I understand, some PG kids have personality traits that manifest like ADD. They can look inattentive for a number of reasons: in school, maybe it's because they already know what's being taught or because some element of a discussion caught their imagination and they're engaging in some sort of deep-thinking extension that would leave everyone else totally confused but makes perfect sense to them. Also, lots of PG kids have anxiety issues because of their asynchronous development. Basically, they understand things that they're not yet emotionally equipped to manage, or they have these crazy imaginations that lead them to catastrophize (this was a problem I had and have only as an adult learned to manage!)

The first night we met the psychologist, DS had forgotten his meds that morning. So he was bouncing all over the place, looking through her bookshelves, interrupting with questions, etc. I was so frustrated, but it didn't bother her a lot -- she said it was normal for PG kids because their brains were just constantly going and processing things. (She said this is also why my son has NEVER been a good sleeper.)

So is it a different kind of ADD? That's a tough question! I guess the way I look at it is sort of like this: You can get a headache from bonking your head or from your sinuses...but you still have a headache, and ibuprofen still generally takes care of the worst symptoms regardless. DS takes Vyvanse, and it does help him with his inattention and impulse control (though if you read my first post, you can see it definitely doesn't FIX it -- he took his meds the day he was tested!) The psych was kind of uncertain about how much he needed the Vyvanse until she tested him, and she saw his abilities in the actual intellectual areas and then saw the huge dip when they got to the attention-related activities. So I guess what I'm saying is that whether it's because he's PG or because of some other reason, he still benefits from traditional solutions -- changing diet to reduce preservatives and eliminate food colorings, getting plenty of exercise, working on cognitive-behavioral-based behavior modification and, yes, meds.

I don't know if that helps, but I guess that's how I see it.

Ooh, the psychologist strongly encouraged us to get this book, both for DS and for us. Both my husband and I were IQ tested as kids at 150+ (though this was SB, not WISC, of course). We both struggled with depression, which is not at all unusual for gifted, but I have had serious anxiety issues my whole life. She thinks maybe I could find more lasting relief if I better understood the real root of my symptoms, which she suspects may be more related to being HG than traditional anxiety. She said reading this book would help be better understand that as well as the ADHD-like whatever that DS has going on. So thanks for reminding me -- in my rush to better understand DS's scores, that suggestion had kind of gotten lost in the cluttered hallways of my mind!

Alyson,
I'm so glad you are here. I think that there is a good chance that your psychologist is correct. When I started posting on a different HG/PG forum, back when DS13 was first diagnosed (and before this one existed) there was a very unactive sections about 'Adult Giftedness.' I know that I've grown to be a much more calm and balanced person during this journey, because I can see that back then, about every 3 months, I make these long venting post about 'who did what to whom' and how miserable it made me. That was 4 years ago - not long on the 'major life change' scale, and about a year ago I realized that I never had that feeling that 'life is soooooo awfullllll' anymore to such a full degree.

Some of that is that I'm no longer under the exquisite stress of watching my son be so misplaced at school. Some of it might be a natural process of maturation. But I really think that getting to know myself as a 'rather unusually gifted person' (who can't spell) and having a place to share the 'small highs and lows' on a daily basis has made so much of the difference.

What is totally gone is the feeling that something mysterious and bad is wrong with me that I'm not like other people. I think a lot of HG women grow up this way, but I recently read Deirdre Lovecky's Different Minds, and she points out that the 'typical' Gifted/ADD girls is able to do well in school by being hypervigelient, and can never be relaxed and confident that she is actually prepared for any academic situation. As I read this I remembered that this was true once I got to Middle School and High School, because things seem to 'jump out of the ether' at me on a regular basis. I'm not sure that I could be clinically diagnosed as ADD, but I do have plenty of gifted +ADD traits, and was constantly teased about being a 'space cadet' as a girl. And things do jump out of nowhere on a regular basis - of course that might be perfectly normal, LOL, and I just mind it more because of my perfectionism (which, to me is more of a lack of having other people around who are comfortable discussing such things as peers - I call it 'lack of reference,' and it's one of our great confusions.

Anyway, I'm now wondering how much growing up a Spacey, Gifted Girl contributed to my being always on guard and worried. I think that teachers in particular were pretty good at communicating their disappointment that a 'bright girl like you doesn't care enough to write in neat handwriting and look up the words I don't know in a dictionary.' Of course to me the correctly spelled words looked as 'funny' as the incorrectly spelled ones. I must have some emotional block about -el words, such as 'modle' or 'model' because they both look terribly wrong to me.

Anyway Alyson - welcome! search 'perfectionism' and and enjoy our years of chewing over this interesting questions!



It's worth a try anyway...
Love and More Love,
Grinity

I just checked back in here after being away a couple of days on deadlines (one of the curses of the gifted adult who went through regular schools as a kid, I believe, is pathological procrastination, which I inconveniently pair with perfectionism), and my heart is pounding reading your message! I have never, ever seen my academic experience so clearly and succinctly crystallized as it is in the excerpt above: I was, and I still am, a "spacey, gifted girl." WOW! Thank you for that.

FWIW, my current psychologist actually did diagnose me as ADD. It was a roundabout way of getting to it, actually -- I've struggled with depression and anxiety my whole life, but I'd come to realize that what brought on my depression, more than anything else, was anxiety. I've always been pretty introspective about these matters, and once I realized that, I was sort of on a new mental journey to try and root out the main anxiety triggers. Eventually I realized my anxiety was often caused by situations I brought about through procrastination, poor planning, forgetfulness, and organizational problems -- you know, that pesky working memory/executive function stuff. I talked to my psychologist about this and we did a screening. She said I did come back as exhibiting clinical symptoms that did lean more toward the inattentive end of the ADHD scale (though she did point out I do have hyperactive problems like nervous behaviors -- twisting my ring all the time, shaking my leg up and down, etc.) She and I worked on medications for a while, and now I am off all SSRIs and SNRIs that I was on and I'm simply taking an ADHD med to control those issues. It's a work-in-progress, but it seems to be effective for now. (knock on wood)

Okay, so I apologize for thread-bumping an old topic, but I had to reply, because your message was so, so relevant to where I am right now...and how I'm managing my son's issues, as well.

Thank you all SO MUCH for your warm welcome -- I am so happy to have found a group of people I can talk openly around. Too often we have to hide our concerns and struggles because most people aren't open to hearing about the problems of parenting a PG kid -- to them, it's as inexcusable as a supermodel complaining about having too many admirers. To find a community of people I don't have to tiptoe around discussions of intelligence (and all the related baggage!) is such a huge relief. Thank you all!

alyson

((Hugs))
Alyson!!!

My newest fun is Lumosity.com
they have a 'training track' for ADD

and trying to figure out the 'Fish oil' question --- less fun!
I'll start a seperate post.
Grinity