Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy preschool vs kindergarten choice for a 4 yr old

I'm new here. I have been reading your posts for over a year now and have enjoyed and greatly benefited from your stories and wisdom. I decided to join because I'm facing an issue that I think some of you would be able to sympathize with and hopefully offer some advice. My DS3 will be turning 4 in Feb. We toured a couple of preschools this week and have found a school we all like. The issue is, my DS is extremely introverted and also inflexible about his likes and dislikes. He loves intellectually stimulating exercises that he can do alone like workbooks and puzzles (his reading and math are at 2nd grade level), but shuts down when there are group activities like singing and dancing. If such activities go on long enough, he can get disruptive out of boredom (e.g., screaming, throwing things, I'm embarrassed to admit). Or if, God forbid, somebody were to try to get him involved, he could get even more unpleasant. He is a gentle soul and has never hurt anyone in his life (he really is very sweet), but when other children get into his private space or take his things away, he gets extremely outraged and takes forever to calm down. He has never shown much interest in other children and seems to prefer to play alone. I used to worry about the possibility of Asperger's, but I don't think so now. At least, I don't think he is necessarily delayed socially. I think that's just the way he is. He is just an extreme introvert with interests that his age peers usually don't share. And he is fine with that, at least at this age.

I had a conversation with the principal of the preschool we like about the possibility of skipping preschool and enrolling him in kindergarten at age 4, considering his interest in more academic things and disinterest in social/group activities. She had never had anyone do that in her 30 years of experience (which really surprised me), but is willing to make an exception in my DS's case as long as he gets evaluated and the tester recommends placing him in kindergarten. I don't know if it's a good idea but I think I owe it to my son to give it a full consideration. I just want him to be happy and have an enjoyable first experience with school. My husband thinks we should put him in preschool. His argument is, we should encourage him to learn to get along with children his age even if they're different from him and learn to tolerate activities that he is initially not interested in; that it is probably the most important lesson to learn in school at this age. Also, it's not like he is going to be with his intellectual peers in kindergarten anyway; afterall, in kindergarten they are covering materials that he had mastered before he even turned two. Of course I agree with him, but I'm not convinced it's the best thing for my son. I feel really ambivalent.

Do any of you have experience with placing your child in kindergarten at age 4? If so, can you share your experience? What kinds of thoughts and facts were influential in your final decision? What kind of testing did you obtain? Is your child happy now?

Sorry for writing a novel here. I'm sure my future posts won't be as lengthy! OK, I'm ready for your advice!

Junior, I am happy to share our experience but I'm not sure how helpful it will be. My DS is not as introverted as your son sounds (from your description) although he is reserved around children his age. He is gregarious with adults. He is not disruptive, in fact, he is extrememly unassertive.

When DS had just turned four his preK teacher recommended that he join the Kindergarten class at his private Preschool/Kindergarten. I readily agreed hoping that DS would find playmates among the older children. Unfortunately, the Kindergarten teacher was not happy about the idea (I was not aware of this until much later) and set about systematically excluding my son from activities in her class. She even told him he was "not really in Kindergarten" because he wasn't 5 yet. DS did not receive the support and encouragement he needed to join the social circle of the Kindergarten. The teacher did not want to bother with him in any way. If he had trouble with any task she just told him to skip it because it was "too hard" for him. The damage she did in just a few months has taken at least as long to undo.

My DS is now attending Kindergarten for a second time in public school because of a state law preventing him from early entrance to first grade due to a November birthday. He is much happier this year and feels like a true member of the class although the academics are far below his level.

So my advice to you is to make sure that the teacher is absolutely willing to work with your son and include him as a full member of the class before you commit to the early entrance plan.

My guess is that your son will have plenty of opportunities to learn to get along with other children and tolerate uninteresting activities in either setting.

Cathy

Hi Junior,
It sounds like your boy is a wonderful kid, what a good thing it is that he exists! Thanks for sharing him with us. ((welcoming smile))

I'm glad you decided to post. I'm guessing you are on the shy side as well? If so, I'm glad he has a Mom who really understands him.

I think getting him tested is a great idea. Do you have a tester in mind. I'm going to repeat myself - LOL - "If he is a III or higher Ruf Level Estimated Giftedness, be sure to travel for your Assesment, as these kids are rare enough that even a well meaning and creative local tester isn't going to much use to you. We parents really need guidance from experienced folks. Introversion of the Unusually Gifted is particularly easy to confuse other adults - school folks and testers alike.

The last thing you want is to send him to anyplace that believes that there is something wrong with the way he currently is and see themselves as the person to change it. ((shake)) My own son spent 2nd grade in that situation and I regret that I didn't have policy that prompted me to act. That was hard on him, and he started to believe the teachers attitude. Perhaps ND (normally developing) kids can avoid noticing when a teacher sees them as deficient and in need of fixing and has the agenda to fix them, but few Gifted Kids can avoid noticing.

More questions -
Do you have other children, older or younger?

Does he ever get to play with children who are his "mental age" - how does that go?

Does he have any adults besides you that enjoy that activities he enjoys and when this happens, how does he interact socially?

Does he wear you out? Does he like to work independently for reasonable chunks of time? Do people accuse you of being "overclose?" My DS11 was like this. None of it made sense until I mentally compared him to a child with special needs. Would a hard of hearing child who's mom had figured out how to speak in ways he could understand, when no one else did, fight and cling and scheme to keep Mom close and focused on his? You bet he would. In a way my son had a communication problem, in that the many interesting snippets of adult communication were hard for him to decode, so he wanted me by his side to "explain" and do simultanious translations what felt like 24/7. He had the reasoning ability but not the knowledge bank as a preschooler.

You didn't mention the possibility of keeping him home for another year, and going straight to 1st grade next year - are go getting pressure to "send him to school" and "make him act like a real kid?" Is he showing signs that he 'needs' to spread his wings, or are you hoping that if he goes to school, the wings will appear.

In summary, an assesment can be an invaluable tool. Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual (about 20$ from Amazon) is a wonderful guide to early enterance. Roger's Reforming Gifted Education is a useful guide to the many choices one has.

Personally, I believe that 90% of the time should be spent enjoying the child in their area of strenghts and about 10% should be spent on gentle, thoughtful nudges in the challenge areas. In this situation, hireing a bright high school boy to "tutor/babysit" him may be the level of gentle thoughtful nudge in the social direction that he's ready for now.

Best Wishes whatever you choose, it's the choosing that matters more than the outcome. ;-)
Trinity

Thank you all for your helpful response. Cathy, I was sad to hear about your child's initial experience in kindergarten. It makes me so mad to hear about insensitive teachers like that. I will definitely have a talk with the K teachers before making the final decision. I'm sure you can all relate, but DS is often misunderstood, even by well-meaning adults. If people don't go out of their way to listen to him, he just sounds very odd or intimidating. A year ago when he was just starting to get interested the solar system, his babysitter said, "do you know which planet man has ever landed on?" (eager to teach him something new) DS: "...no, you tell me." babysitter: "the moon!" DS: "The moon is a planet???" The babysitter was confused and embarrassed. That's when he was only two!

Dottie, at the end of my conversation with the principal, I said, if his testing indicates he is ready for K, we will try that first and if it does not work out, we will move him down to pre-K. It would be wonderful if DS adjusts as yours did. Your kid's personality probably has a lot to do with his success.

Trinity, yes, I'm an introvert myself and I believe I understand DS better than anyone else. DS takes after me in almost every way, except he is more extreme: he is smarter and more socially oblivious. Maybe it's because he is a boy. He seems perfectly comfortable with being so different.

I'm willing to travel to get him tested. Do you have recommendations? We live in Chicago, not far from Northwestern. Their Center for Talent Development offers testing, but it doesn't sound comprehensive. They only do achievement testing, no IQ testing and no assessment of psychosocial adjustment. Will it be enough?

To answer your questions: no, he doesn't have any friends who are his mental age. I am always on the lookout but have not found anyone similar to my child in intelligence and temperament. I have a friend whose daughter is two years older and profoundly gifted. They had some interactions that were very encouraging to me. They would talk about the solar system, skip count together, tell each other stories. I almost wanted to cry watching my kid appear so "normal" in interacting with another child. Unfortunately, she does not live here and also she is an extreme extrovert, which can stress out DS if together with her too long. Probably, the kids he gets along best with are his 2 year old brother and cousins who are much older (7-11 yrs). He enjoys adults who really listen to him and engage him in conversations that are stimulating. You know, adults usually don't snatch his toys away, scribble on his paper, or beat him with a stick pretending to be Superman, etc. Is there a way to meet other gifted children in my area, perhaps through this forum? Do you happen to know of anyone in the Chicago area who might be a good fit for DS? Do I sound as desperate as I feel?

The reason for wanting to enroll him in preschool is rather selfish. DS is very demanding and is hard to bring along on errands, etc. I'm pregnant now and the thought of three small children at home is overwhelming. If he would enjoy going to preschool a couple hours a day, I would certainly enjoy having a break from him. However, if school does not work out at this point, I am more than willing to keep him at home another year. Like you mentioned though, I'm sure some people (like my in-laws) will assume it's my own "seperation anxiety" that's holding him back. They all have wonderfully outgoing, normally developing kids who can't wait to go to school. Oh, well... I'll just have to deal with it if it comes to that.

Thank you for your thoughts. Please feel free to share more of your experiences and resources, like testing opportunities you like and the type of schools that worked well for your kids, and local support groups for kids like mine.

JR

Yeah, what she said!

A half-day K with a teacher excited to differentiate work for DS worked great for us. He mostly got time with other kids, but he still had the energy and time to do his own thing when he got home. A full day of undifferentiated work in 1st grade was a disaster, and we pulled DS6 out for home schooling. That has been a great success!

My thing is that so much depends on 1) the teacher and, 2) how much time the child will have to do his/her own thing after school. A non-academic, half-day preschool with a fired-up teacher is going to be better than an academically focused, inappropriately low-level, full-day K class with a rigid "This is what we do here" teacher. (Well, in your case, provided the preschool doesn't do a lot of singing...) But most preschools allow a lot of "free time" for playing with blocks and riding tricycles and drawing. These things are good for pretty much all kids at that age. The HG+ ones just do their chemistry and novel-writing when they get home. And if tricycles and blocks aren't your son's thing, you could probably find a preschool program that would let you bring in projects that *were* his thing. In my experience, preschools tend to be more flexible about such things than public schools.

One other thought: preschools do tend to be more likely to "expel" kids who can't behave as the school wishes them to. It happens with surprising regularity. I have one friend whose HG+ son was asked to leave three different preschool programs! And the kid is NOT a holy terror or anything! Be prepared to work closely with the teachers on behavioral issues if there are problems. I'd plan to be in the class A LOT to help out. you're not going to get to be one of those parents who drops her kid off and has the day to herself...(Not that you planned to be...)

JR -
Yes we have BTDT!
Excersise great caution in exposing a boy like this to the school system. IF you think you are worn out now, just imagine if you had to nurse him back to health after a bad school experience.Boys like this can be seriously targeted in a school environment.

I would say to see if you can structure some regular DH-DS-DS time so you get a break ASAP.

A casual "drop off Mommies Day off" that consentrates on babysitting might be best. Can you hire a substitute Grandmother or Grandfather to show him how to rake the leaves or garden or build something?

I'm thinking that a phone call to Northwestern to look for possible playmates might help. It is so touching when they can finally be themselves. It isn't "only" Introversion. I'll ask around for testers.

Best Wishes,
Trinity

Hi Junior:
We didn't do early K but actually skipped K and went to first grade with our now 2nd grade son. I am very happy that we did this when we did, before he got established with the K class and then had to skip a grade later. For him, we knew that bonding with one group and then moving to another might be a problem and after testing we agreed that if not now then sometime soon he would need a grade skip. He is now 2nd grade but with 3rd grade math (he'll be 7 in March). He just recently told us that he wishes he could stay in 3rd grade all day!

I've read that Dr. Ruf typically recommends that all kids attend K and then advocates a skip to 2nd grade if needed, but I'm not sure that you can make a blanket statement that all kids should attend a K program. Ours was in a highly structured preschool/daycare setting where he was basically doing K work. So for him, K would have been repeating a grade. Dr. Ruf's caveat is that many K teachers won't take a 4 year old seriously. I can see her point there.

I live outside the Chicago area and while we ultimately decided to drive west to Univ. of Iowa for our son's testing I did speak a couple of times with Elizabeth Mika in Gurnee. She seemed great and we almost took him there for testing prior to entering school. You could try her and see if you like what she has to offer: 847-543-9550 She is the only psychologist listed in IL on the Hoagie's page, for what that's worth.

Our son also attends the Northwestern CTD classes and just loves them. They start at the age of 4 and are offered as Saturday classes during the school year and then also have a summer program during the week. You might want to check it out as a way for your little guy to find some peers.
Hope that info helps. Good luck!

I think it depends alot on the teacher.
I started kindergarten at 4. I think it was mostly to solve a daycare problem for my mom.
It was a Catholic school. I don't think i had any kind of testing. I do remeber talking to the teacher before I started though. Maybe that was their test.
Sister took me very seriously. It was a good experience. but it was a loooong time ago. and it was only a half day. but it was pretty academic from what i remeber, reading and math, we did catepillars and butterflies in science class with a worksheet recording data and stuff.
I have fond memories of Sister. I had friends in the class. it was before the era of playdates, but i got invited to birthday parties etc. so i guess it was ok socially.

Gratified3, I think your post is brilliant. I totally agree. These kids learn so fast and so enthusiastically on their own, that I would be really hesitant to put a little boy in a formal school setting unless he was very excited about participating. I totally regret sending my son to all day kindergarten.

My only recommendation is to look at your long term plan for him. Is skipping K after next year a possibility? Are there any good gifted programs in the area you can shoot for? Good luck! I know these are really hard decisions.

"In retrospect, if I had it to do over, I'd delay any formal academics as long as possible. For a kid doing 2nd grade work, K isn't any better than preschool IMHO..."

Completely agreed. My ds5, in K now but starting first-grade pull-outs soon, would have been just as happy in play-based preschool as he is in kindergarten -- but his birthday is May, so early entry wasn't really an option for us. Instead of early entry K, what about putting your ds in play-based preschool for another year and "unschooling" him at home, and skip K into first grade the next year? Or what about Montessori? We had a great early childhood experience at Montessori, which gives a lot of independent work opportunities.

I guess the problem for your ds is that almost *any* early childhood program/kindergarten is going to involve some amount of singing/circle time. My ds just didn't participate in this stuff for a while, though once he figured out how much fun singing is, he was more willing.

And we have a lot of Chicago-area families here -- we should schedule a get together! We're just north of the city, and we did get our ds tested with Elizabeth Mika. She was fabulous, ds enjoyed it, and I'd highly recommend her. I also know of another guy in Skokie named Dr. Jerry Schecter; we spoke briefly with him, but Elizabeth Mika was able to get us in sooner.

We also tried the Northwestern CTD classes when ds was a bit younger, but he wasn't quite ready for them; he was in Montessori full day and not quite ready for a sixth day of school! We'll likely try them again in the next year or two if he seems interested; seems like a fabulous resource.

Good luck!

Mia

ETA: About the CTD testing -- no, it's not comprehensive. If you want a full picture, I'd do something else. We had the CTD evaluation done almost a year ago, and while it was helpful, it was certainly *not* a substitute for a full evaluation. They do PIAT-R, Raven's Progressive Matrices, and a Draw-a-Person; Elizabeth Mika did the WPPSI and the WISC. On the other hand, the CTD eval is far cheaper than private testing (we only paid $100 at CTD), so if you're just looking for a ball-park figure to see how your ds might function in K and want to put off a full formal eval, it might work for you.