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I am sorry, just a short vent. I am just so sick and tired of having to spend so much time and energy to get what any parent wants for their child. You would think in a county as advanced as we are supposed to be that we could do a lot better than this with our children! I am just so worn out and practically in tears again because it can be so wearring on a person. We are still fighting with the school, trying to get services for my daughter. We are also trying to come up with the $20-$30/hr to have her tutored in written expression because the school district won't do anything to help because she is "so smart anyway". I am just amazed at our stupidity as a nation when it comes to education. Better stop now, her advocate said I'm having an emotional day, what an understatement! Good thing today isn't a school day, the teacher is having a break down, kidding but definately not my day to try and teach anything. Best wishes to everyone in the new year, may we see what we need to see happen for our children.

Oh! So sorry for your bad day! {{{Hugs}}}

Are there other options that might cost less? How about partial homeschooling? Or afterschooling?

There are more reasonably priced home education writing programs available. www.bravewriter.com comes to mind immediately. It's a bit too touchy-feely for my tastes as a former teacher of argument, but if you want a creative writing program, it's excellent. Other distance learning programs might also be possibilities.

I could probably find some resources for you if you want them. Since writing is my strong suit, I haven't investigated much. But I could ask in a couple of places and come up with other options for you, I'm sure.

My point is that there may be other ways to solve your problem, if you're interested.

Either way, hang in there.

It sounds like a good cry may be in order and I'll join you

Now that's out of the way, so we can move on to resolutions. Let's resolve to channel our emotional energy into a powerful driving force for the new year!

I don't know if you made MelMI smile, but your "I'll join you" made me smile, Inky! Nice!

Thank you! I knew someone would understand.

I would LOVE any suggestions for writing programs. My daughter is testing below grade level in writing. I am at a loss as to how to teach writing. We pulled our kids this school year and I haven't begun writing much with my younger kids so any kind of writing programs would be great. (My younger daughter may very well be an aspie like her older sister.) My older daughter tests at mid 3rd grade writing abillity and my younger dd's would just be starting out.

Wait, so how old are they? I always forget the ages of kids.

(Just call me Spock, the insensitive... I forget birthdays and names, too, I'm afraid!)

Sorry, we must have crossed in posting...

No, I'm just confused. (What else is new, right? LOL!)

So you mean K by "just starting out"? She's in K as well as performing at a K level? And your 3rd grade performer is in 3rd grade?

I'd just like to try to find a program appropriate both for age AND ability, if possible. So I like to know both.

Of course, at that level, you might be able to handle it yourself for free. I'd be happy to help you here. But at that age, it's pretty low stress.

It's a free option, at least, though you won't hurt my feelings at all if you refuse. Many people really need a curriculum to feel confident, and I appreciate that. But for most elementary school-aged kids, just writing every day is pretty much what they need. Talk about main ideas. Talk about sentence structure. Have them draft something one day, revise their writing the next, then polish spelling and grammar on the third day.

Dinner is ready, so I need to go, but I can write more later if you want more. Or I can just hunt for stuff. Let me know what you'd prefer.

Do you know the Ralph Fletcher books, Mel? They are very inexpensive ($4.99-$5.99 each when I got them), designed for young-ish kids (says 8-12 on the cover), and have a very appealing (to me, anyway) tone--Fletcher treats children as serious, capable young writers--they're very un-patronizing.

The books are called:

-"How Writers Work: Finding a Process that Works for You" (some chapter titles: Brainstorming, Breaking the Ice: Getting Started, Going with the Flow, Rereading, Revision: Radical Surgery, etc.)

-"Live Writing: Breathing Life into Your Words (strategies, ideas, and tips to fuel you for a lifetime of writing)" (some chapter titles: The Writer's Toolbox, Reading Like a Writer, Building Character, Voice: Connecting with the Reader, etc.)

-"A Writer's Notebook: Unlocking the Writer Within You" (some chapter titles: What is a Writer's Notebook Anyway? Seed Ideas, Mind Pictures, Snatches of Talk, Lists, Memories, etc.)

-"Poetry Matters: Writing a Poem from the Inside Out" (some chapter titles: Image, Poem Sparks: What to Write About, Wordplay, A Few Words About Form)

I don't know if this is anything like what you're looking for (and I'm sure Kriston will have lots of ideas!), but maybe this might be a place to have a quick look.

He has a website, let's see if I can find the address...

Aahh, it's an easy one-- www.ralphfletcher.com
On his site, he has a page of tips for young writers, some teacher handouts (things like lists of recommended books, quotes about writing, etc.), and also an invitation to young writers to e-mail him questions about their writing (sounds like a nice guy!).

Anyway, hope that helps a bit.

peace
minnie

A lot of people swear by Handwriting Without Tears ... might be one to check out.

I feel your pain!

HWT is a great program, but it isn't for composition. That is just strictly the act of handwriting.

Nope! I was just going to ask around. As I say, I can't see paying for a writing curriculum for a 7yo when I designed more than one for college students! It really seems like I can handle a 7yo on my own!

Those sound good, Minnie.

Here is the link to www.bravewriter.com online classes. http://www.bravewriter.com/program/online-classes/class-list/one-thing-freewriting/ Look at the freewriting course.


I don't know if this applies to you but might be worth an email to Julie Bogart. She is EXTREMELY helpful.

hugs!

I liked the writing program my DD started last year in K and I hope the school continues it. Here's a link but it may be too pricey. There are some sample sessions on the web site though.

http://www.unitsofstudy.com/

I read a wonderful book about the '6+1 writing traits.' Here's a link to more info: http://www.nwrel.org/assessment/definitions.php?odelay=0&d=1

but there doesn't seem to be any 'approved' 6+1 website that I can find. There are plenty out there. What I like about 6+1 is that it indroduces a vocabulary about writing that you can look at the works of professional writers, and have a good conversation about them, or use it to talk reasonably about a child's writing sample.

When I was a kid, my feedback about writing consisted of 'copy editing' type of stuff. This is important, but has almost nothing to do with improving communication on paper.

Just having a vocabulary help tremendously.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I completely agree, Grin!

Teaching a child the different betweeen drafting, revising (fine-tuning ideas) and editing (fine-tuning grammar and spelling) is REALLY helpful, and it puts the focus solidly on the child's ideas without neglecting mechanics.

Thanks to Dottie's input, I am beginning to see that she isn't so much behind, as just on track for her age in that particular area. I guess we just aren't used to seeing that since she is advanced in science and math.

I will definately have to look into some of these. I feel so inept in teaching writing. My oldest just turned nine. She would have been in fourth grade, they were hoping to move her to at least fifth grade if she stayed in public school. She is home and her WJ puts her at 8-10 in writing samples. So she's not as behind for her actual age, just for the grades she was grouped in for overall classes. Now that she is homeschooling it should be easier to meet her needs, I just don't where to begin. Hence the writing tutor, who is one of her past public teachers that she adored who will at least give me a starting point; definately not something I could afford long term.

I really appreciate the input. I am going to spend a more time looking at the Voyages in English to see if maybe I'm using it wrong and look into others that you guys suggested.

Oh, and the twins just turned six. Normally I wouldn't worry about writing with them just yet and one is a struggling reader and the other reads very well but struggles with handwriting. (Fine motor problems.) I was told by the teacher consultant that the school is now teaching writing starting in K?

Pretty much anything that has her writing every day and thinking/talking about how to make her writing better is going to be a good program.

I have a couple of strategies I use with DS7. The one I use most frequently is to have him write down words he doesn't know from his reading and then use them to write anything he likes. Usually they wind up being really silly, but that's okay at his age. I just want 3 lines of writing every day. (Last year I required 2 lines and next year I'll require 4 or 5.) Then we discuss what he wrote. I try not to come at this conversation as a judge but as someone asking questions to encourage him to think critically about his own writing.

Other days I'll let him write absolutely anything he wants. Last year he wrote a book about Transformers. He would often write for an hour without stopping because he was so excited by his story. On these days, I don't require much critical thinking about his work. I just let him enjoy the process.

One other strategy I have rarely used with DS7 yet (he's still pretty young!) but often used with my college students was directed freewriting. It might be good for your older DD. It's a kind of brainstorming exercise. I think Bravewriter uses a form of this a lot, too, though her version may be more polished and less brainstorm. I'm not sure.

Anyway, freewriting involves asking a question and then having the student write as fast as possible about it for a short time--5 minutes, tops!--without stopping. Something along the lines of "What things scare you and why?" or "If you could solve one problem in the world, what would you pick and why?" The idea is to choose something meaty!

If the student runs out of ideas while freewriting, then s/he writes "I don't know what to say" or something like that, but the pencil doesn't stop moving until time is up! The student shouldn't worry AT ALL about spelling or grammar. S/he doesn't even have to write in complete sentences. This is a great way to generate ideas at the start of a larger project. It's not so much writing as it is thinking on paper.

From the freewrite, the student can then cull ideas for a more polished paper, taking time to think as needed. Multiple freewrites can be used to focus on various parts of the project. Ultimately, the goal is to move to a more organized arrangement of ideas. You should pay no attention to spelling or grammar, and you should discourage the student from worrying about them as well. (A good exercise for perfectionists! )

Revising the work to be sure the ideas are arranged logically and explained as fully and clearly as desired is next. Still, focus is on the ideas and the organization, not on mechanics.

Finally, proofreading should take care of grammatical and spelling errors. But there's no point in obsessing over how to phrase a sentence if the idea is crummy and is going to get cut from the paper! Sculptors don't polish until after they've cut away any stone they don't need. The writing process is very similar!

FWIW...

Oh, for the twins, a line or two a day is probably fine. Most composition programs do very little with kids that young. If they write something every day, it probably doesn't matter much what they write.

And yes, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the fact that your older DD has some asynchronous development, especially in the area of writing. That's very common. Nothing wrong with being ND for your age! Since you're homeschooling, it shouldn't matter a bit. The grade skip might have made things hairy for her, but at home, it is very easy to serve her needs.

No worries!

These all sound like fantastic ideas; I enjoyed reading this thread.
Here is my current out-of-left-field idea for injecting some enthusiasm for writing into my ds' life: I have signed him up for a once-a-week cartooning class; supposedly they will be working on character development, which I hope means some writing of words... if not, it should still be fun for him, he is really really excited about it. It starts in a week or so and goes for a couple of months.

I've found that having them organize their thoughts so they can build on them is to use index cards. First, they think of the main point they want to make. Then they can identify points (statements) to support the main idea. Each point is written on each card. Then their examples, perhaps real life experiences, to elaborate with can be written down. Then, all cards can be laid out on a table and arranged in a logical order in a way that builds. Working with these visuals can help make it all more concrete for them. Some things for writers to ask themselves: How can I begin with a strong sentence that incites curiosity in the reader? What adjectives can be stronger than my first choices? Verbs, etc. What creative similes can I use that entertain the reader and bring the point home? (I was as happy as a cat in a fishery.) What words can I eliminate to tighten it up? How can I wrap it up at the end in a creative, uncommon way? It helps for them to look at good examples of writing to learn from them. It helps, when reading a nonfiction storybook with them, to point out the creative sentences and the ways the writer builds.

Idea mapping is another good way to get organized. It sometimes works better for visual-spatial people. Here they call it a "mind map," but it's the same thing. It's a bit more free-association and more visual than a lot of organizational methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_map

I'll add that I think *no* writer should be required to use any particular method to get organized. The only thing that matters is what works. Some people need extensive organizational tools or crutches and some need a couple of hastily jotted notes and they're good to go. I was required to use index cards on a paper when I was in high school, and it very nearly made me nuts. It's a GREAT method, but it wasn't a good method at all for ME--I wrote all the cards after I wrote the paper.

Drafting is pretty much the only process that *everyone* should use, and even there, some people draft virtually finished work the first time out. That respect of a person's own needs has to be okay.

Offer possibilities to a student, but let the child play with them as s/he likes and see what works. Some things will and some things won't. The child will usually tend to gravitate toward what helps him/her. Follow that!

Sorry to keep chiming in. Everyone is posting such good stuff that I can't seem to help myself. Plus I am enjoying getting to use my writing/teaching stuff again!

This is a big relief Melmichigan! First gifted denial makes us think that our kids are 'average' - then gifted denial makes us think that there is something terribly wrong when our kids actually perform at an average level. ((shrug)) All part of our learning process!

I think that age 9 is a terrific age to start teaching 'keyboard skills' or 'touch typing' if you haven't already. Just pick up an instuctional program and figure out a way for her to spend 15 minutes a day, just like a musical instrument. I know that you are asking about 'Writing' and it might not look to some what being able to type comfortably has to do with creating an essay, or telling a story in words, but I wouldn't try to teach tennis to a kid who didn't know how to run, would any of you? Even if you could find a crawler who understood the rules or tennis, and could manage to hit a ball with a racket, what fun would it be without being able to run from one spot to another.

So - if I ever get to homeschool 'Language Arts' this is how I would approach the subject:

1) Break LA down into all the component skills and practice them seperatly and, at times, together.

spelling - pre tests and post tests, and teaching the child the knack of sitting down and rote memorizing on their own, if only for 90 seconds.

grammer - units and practice from a book.

Art of writing appreciation - use the 6+1 traits to analyse how wonderful storytelling makes us feel. How did the author do what she did?

Reading - what are the catagories of written material? Where are they found in a library? How might one sample a work and see if it's interesting? Which Genres does one like? How do two books compare and contrast?

Typing - learning the mechanical skill of keyboarding without looking at one's fingers.

Powerpoint presentations - teaches skills that used to be used in outlines

Using a video camera to record the child telling stories, or acting them out with dolls, etc.

Daily Journal writing.

Graphic Organizer practice: http://www.brightminds.us/getProduc...ction_to_display=product_sample_page.jsp

Some pre-research paper writing skills - Having a poster with 'fill in the blank' spaces about onself or a famous person, and filling in the blanks. Check out 'Big 6' as a cookbook approach to research.

There must be more, but I'm going through all this to show that there is a lot more to learning to write for a 9 year old than 'brainstorm-outline-rough draft-polish.'

I totally agree that writing daily is key. I'm not so sure that 'correcting' the daily writing is so important.

Here's the big exciting finish: I think that some students benifit from being taught to 'brainstorm-outline-rough draft-polish' and all children should at least be exposed to that method, BUT for some gifted children, like my DS12, it isn't what he needs or finds helpful.

He does much better 'automatic writing' then copy /paste/delete for the organizational step, then copy edit. To tell the truth, 90% of his copy edit goes on during his 'automatic writing' - which I know is against the rules, but the kid has a monster working memory and it doesn't slow him down.


Will my DS someday write a 100 page paper and need to make an outline and note cards? I would guess so, but until then, I'm not going to force him into it, just check that he knows how for when the time comes, KWIM?

I just miss the time that I wasted going, "If only he would use a graphic organizer! Notecard! Whatever!"

((shrugs))
Grinity

opps! got so carried away with my post that I missed Kriston's!

That's what I mean...

Thank you, thank you...I really appreciate the input from everyone. I was warned not to make to many decisions or buy to much my first year homeschooling and I'm so glad I listened. Everyone has such wonderful ideas for me to write down and organize.

Part of my initial problem was that when all the testing was done the results given to me compared my daughter to expectations for grades a year and two ahead of her age, where she was placed for school. Now I can understand how she tests against someone her own age. Thanks Dottie! Yes, it was a very big relief, instead of a grade or two behind, she's "normal" when it comes to writing.

The hard part for me with writing is that I'm like Grinity's son. If I'm writing a report I read the information I'm going to use, put it around in my brain, and write it-end draft. I may go back and check spelling and flow since I just write, but for the most part what I write is a finished product. It's always been that way. Frustrating as it was for my teachers and parents you couldn't change it. I wrote the outline after the paper was done.

I found a writers notebook at the Lakeshore learning online store that I ordered, real inexpensive that goes through the process of writing with a section for each point in the process. It allows you to brainstorm, then fill in a draft, etc. right in the notebook. I also like the idea of picking a topic and having her write for a given time.

I looked through a teachers guide for the Voyagers in English and that may help a lot. It divides the writing process into days with a specific goal for the day, covering different types of writting. I feel a little better now! You guys are great!

Happy to be part of the solution, Melmich!

I want to point out the damage that ND teachers and systems set up for ND kids do to young gifties.
A) they don't teach you
B) they almost force the child to internalize the idea that they are flawed in some way
C) We carry this idea that we are flawed into our interactions with our own children.

Melmich?
How old were you when you started writing this way?
Did you already know how to touchtype?
How did you feel about yourself as a writer in 5th grade? 7th grade? 11th grade? Beyond?

You're daughter may be one of those kids who can make use of the ND way of teaching writing: brainstorm/organize/draft/copy edit, or she may not. It wasn't that you didn't know those steps, it was that you felt wrong because you could never see the point of those steps, yes? It was that you had deep mixed feelings about the ND 'teach you to write' path, yes?

I think that this experience points out one of the key importances of this board. You had an old 'hot button' from your own school experiences. The school told you that your daughter was 'bad' at writing. You accepted what they said at face value. When you posted here, we had other perspectives on the whole issue, because our 'hot buttons' are in other areas. You quickly 'woke up' and adopted perspectives that were better suited to moving things forward. Wow! What a marvelous transformation! What a lucky chance that you are here and had the courage to post! Yippee!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I'll reiterate that I do think even GT people use that brainstorm/organize/draft/copy edit process, Grin. Really, they do! It's just that they do those steps in their heads, or they do them so fast that people on the outside don't recognize them, or they have such an innate sense of mechanics (or organization or whatever) that they don't appear to have to do much/anything in that step.

But I have NEVER seen a person whose writing doesn't go through the brainstorm/organize/draft/copy edit process in SOME fashion and come out better on the other side with the writer feeling better about the process.

By the time I sit down to write a paper, I have done the brainstorming and organizing in my head, but I've done it, so I don't have to revise much/at all. And I have a good sense of mechanics, so I rarely need to edit much. I used to write my 5-page argument papers for my philosophy classes in the 30-60 minutes before class and get A+s on them. And that was on an old electric typewriter, not a computer! So no editing that didn't involve white-out!

But as complexity increases--and it increased for me in graduate school--the process and time to use the process becomes more important.

I recommend against viewing a person's going through the process in an abbreviated way or in a less than typical manner as meaning that the brainstorm/organize/draft/copy edit process is "an ND way of teaching writing." I disagree with that characterization. I believe strongly that this series of steps is the way the writing process works. Period. You must start with ideas (or start with a specific example and use that to develop the ideas, but it amounts to the same thing) and move to the mechanics to be effective.