Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Too good to be true? Plans for next year....

I just spoke with the principal at our school about next fall. I called him to get the ball rolling, as they said they wanted to test son next fall and see where he is for placement/planning. I was sure that they would try to blow me off, forget about it or whatever. But, surprise!

Principal said that they just had a discussion about my son at the primary grade staff meeting this week. The second grade teacher is already aware of the needs. The first grade teacher apparently reported "substantial gains" in reading. They agreed that son needs to be tested BEFORE school starts so they can plan for resources to meet his needs. I almost fell off my chair!

They want the school psychologist to test him using a standardized achievement test, in early August. Then get together BEFORE school starts to discuss placement for both reading AND math. The principal said that they need to know what son needs so they can "plan for what resources the second grade teacher will need."

OMG! I feel like I hit the lottery, but I'm reminding myself that I haven't turned in the winning ticket yet! This just sounds too good to be true. I'm hoping that they will be able to accomodate him. Although the home schooling in math is moving along, it's been difficult to juggle our schedules and my husband is really compromising his own work by spending every morning at home. We will continue to do what we need to do for our son, but it would be so great if he could just be in school all day next year. Keep your fingers crossed for us!

oh I totally understand. If you can get it in writing go for it. what I do anytime someone says something to me in a conversation (ie the principal or someone on Mite's IEP team) is zip am email summarizing the information shared and asking a question. For example, I would summarize the above and then ask, "Where will the testing take place and are there any special preparations I need DS to do" or something to that effect.

The person has to respond to questions and by doing so is confirming the conversation in writing.

It has worked every time for me.

congrats!

I am amazed at all the progress the people on here have made this year and I think it is due in part to the wonderful information and support we give to each other. I also feel we are wonderful advocates for our kids!

Debbie,
that sounds good. I would be cautiously optimistic, as schools often say things that sound a lot like we want to hear, but mean very different things. That's probably true of any negotiation, I guess.

Is he in school for part of the day now, and homeschooling just Math?

The timetable sounds much better than the alternative of testing in the Fall. But be aware, that they maybe going through the motions in order to have ammo to say, "see we tested him, he doesn't have any special needs." Sad to say, but it did happen to me. I hope it doesn't happen to you.

I do echo all that Willa Gayles says - very well put!

Good luck,
Trinity

Well, here's a little update along with a question.

The principal spoke with my husband the other day and let him know that the psychologist doesn't want to use the WIAT or other similar achievement tests. Makes sense that what we need to test him with is some out-of-level test to see just what he knows and is ready to learn. The principal is checking around to see just what the best assessment might be. Any suggestions? Our main concern is that he be assessed for readiness to start 3rd grade math in the fall. The principal wants to test for reading as well.

My concern about using some standardized assessment is that the results won't be processed and back before school starts if they don't test him until early August. They are considering using some "broad based curriculum assessment" that they typically give to a child coming in from another school district.

Anyone have ideas or suggestions for a particular assessment(s)?

Hi Debbie,
I do agree that the achievement tests don't seem to offer much by way of placement. If you had the time, I love the idea of NWEA's MAP test, which is used for NCLB testing but is taken on computers so that as the child tests correctly, it "levels up" and attempts to spend a majority of the childs time answering questions that are "just right." How cool does that sound? Problem is that it can't be done over the internet, only at testing centers. They were very nice when I called them, and maybe if you hurry, you can find a "local" school that is giving them this time of year, and your son can "sit in" - the results are availible with days, and the information booklet you get is very very specific. The tests were designed to be an aid to teachers to know how to reach each individual child. It tests Math and Reading.

http://www.nwea.org/assessments/

If that doesnt' pan out, I would look into a "portfolio" approach. That means getting access to the schools "scope and sequence" for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade math, and basically submiting samples of his work that demonstrate that he can do what your district requires teachers to teach in 2nd grade. That way if 3rd grade isn't enough, you'll know it before the school year starts.

Does your district use State tests? If so, see if you can have him attend your 3rd grade and 4th grade testing days. they may want him to take the 2nd grade test also, which is fine if they don't start with that, he would be so insulted/dissapointed you may loose his cooperation. You will have to explain to your son that there will be plenty of items he hasn't got a clue about, and to the school that he may well score worse on the 2nd grade material than the 3rd or 4th grade material. If the material fails to engage the child, the child may not be able to muster the energy to check vigilantly at this age. This is normal for the maturity level.

Our school seemed to have past year tests floating around that they used for various unknown purposes. They maybe able to test him individually and see what he is doing. In some ways, no matter how bad the test, if it's a test that they are familiar with then it's the right test.

Best Wishes,
You are in my prayers -
Trinity

I'm not sure if it helps, but by way of achievement test, our county's Highly Gifted program administered the Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement (KTEA), where the scoring also gives a grade equivalency.

I'm not sure if this applies to the KTEA or just other achievement test, but my understanding is that when you see a "grade equavalence" what is means is:

Your child in 2nd grade, scored as well as an average child in 8th grade did if that 8th grader had been given this 2nd grade test.

So it means that the child's needs aren't being met by giving 2nd material, but it doesn't mean that the child is ready for 8th grade level material. YWIM?

I do agree that there is a serious need for achievement tests that give specific information about placement, and also tells where the gaps actually are. The alternative is to give every end of year test in every subject until one reaches a grade level where the child finds material that they need to learn. Of course there must be some balance between these two extreames, yes?

Love and More Love,
Trinity

We've spoken more with the principal and he has decided to pretty much put together a sort of curriculum based assessment so that it will (hopefully) reflect my son's current level in relation to what they actually teach at this school.

The dilemma was that IQ tests are just going to show ability but not where he is knowledge base-wise and achievement tests just show how he compares to other kids (like what you are describing Trinity). So for right now the plan is that next week we will show the principal a portfolio of what we've been doing at home (which includes some of the curriculum based assessments that are part of the school based Saxon program) and then the teacher and/or the principal will be administering a more structured assessment in August before school starts.

We are still hopeful for 3rd grade math placement. I don't care how they decide on it, I just hope that's what they decide! He will be back in the same place as this past January, if he has to start out in second grade math.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll let you know how things work out!

Hi everyone.
I thought I would pull this old thread out and update you on how our advocacy is paying off! So far, so good - the year is off to a good start and school isn't even in session yet.

MrWiggly will be meeting with the principal tomorrow to start a math assessment. The principal had the 3rd grade teacher put together an assessment, so son will be doing an out-of-level test to determine what he's ready to learn! The principal reviewed his plan with me today: he will be administering the assessment, looking for accuracy/knowledge but also how son approaches the test and more subjective info to help with planning for the new school year. After the assessment is completed, we'll meet and look at options then decide what works best to meet MrWiggly's needs and are within the capabilities of staff/resources at school. Principal said he really wants to be able to meet son's needs, even though we were able to homeschool last year. He knows it wasn't the best option for us. We are definitely hoping they can meet his needs, too!

I'll let you know how things fall in place and whether they might just subject accelerate him into 3rd grade math. School starts on the 21st, so we should know by then! Wish us luck!

wow! sounds like an important turning point for everyone. I'll keep my fingers crossed, prayers up to date and positive vibes flowing MrWiggly's way!!!

Yippee!
This is sometimes a difference between what a child will do at home, and what they will do at school, on a test. Be sure to do some review before the test. ((Hothousing helps schools understand children.)) 3rd graders don't usually do "Finals" and that's what this is like.
Is third grade level what you've been doing at home, or going further?
Love and More Love,
Trin

Hey Debbie,

Good luck tomorrow! It seems as if your school (the principle anyway) is certainly coming around! I can�t wait to learn how it goes and what they offer.

I am anxious about tomorrow also. We have scheduled a parent/teacher conference with my son�s 6th grade teacher. He will be the first male teacher that DS has ever had. We will find out if they have arranged continued math acceleration for him. My husband and son are completely confident that they will accommodate him. I�m not as sure. If not, we may bump him up a grade or remove him from the school. Ania, maybe we will be exchanging home-schooling ideas soon!

This is nerve-racking. I prefer the easy conferences for my daughter where we all agree that she is a strong student and nice kid, and then we ask a few polite questions about the curriculum and schedule and move on!

MrWiggly got through a third of the assessment today. He said some things were easy, some were hard. The principal said he worked hard and was very cooperative and not frustrated. Yea!!!

The assessment is 3rd grade level but we only worked in 2nd grade curriculum. I was a little nervous that the 3rd grade stuff would be too hard. But son seems pretty okay so far.

We are already thinking along the lines of what some of you have said. Dottie: I agree and already have read (and re-read!) "Developing Math Talent". In fact, I copied the first chapter and gave it to the principal LAST year - the part with the myths about mathematically gifted students. I'm hoping he read it and maybe is using some of the info!

We have one, maybe two, more sessions for MrWiggly to complete the assessment. Then we'll meet, get the results and discuss options. If they DO decide to put him in 3rd grade, that will be a two grade level acceleration in math. Anyone have experience with that? MrWiggly is pretty good with social stuff and seems to get along with pretty much everyone. I'm hoping that that much of an acceleration won't make him stand out or be subject to teasing, bullying or whatever. But he won't be 7 until March - much younger than the average 3rd grader. Advice or cautions would be appreciated!

Hello,

We learned today at parent-teacher conference that the administrators and teachers worked out the math issue out for DS! It is a fabulous plan, actually, and better than I had hoped for. He won�t miss anything, although he will still have some make-up due to band pull-out. When the sixth grade teachers trade classes for math and science, DS will stay with his teacher for sixth grade science. Later, when his homeroom has science, he will attend pre-algebra with the eight grade students. His new teacher told us that he understood DS was also very strong in science and would give him extra projects if desired. He would have loved to gone on to junior high science also, but this should be fine. I don�t know that he would have ever bothered to learn about animal behavior and psychology on his own.

Debbie and Dottie,

I understand your age/grade concerns. DS will turn 11 this fall while many 8th grad students turn 14 sometime during the school year. It is only for one class though, so I�m not too worried. I�m also not expecting any B-day invites.

Best wishes all around!

Diana

Thanks for sharing stories and the words of encouragement. I was pretty surprised today when, after another hour of testing, the principal told me that he hadn't yet reached a stopping point! I was pretty sure that the content of the assessment would be getting too challenging by now - but he said son was still able to do questions, although some were definitely more challenging. I'm now just getting anxious for the testing to be completed and then hear what recommendations they come up with. And I'm so glad the principal is doing this himself - he is really getting to know MrWiggly which can only help in the future!

I'm glad to hear that the social thing is not an issue for your kids. MrWiggly has done great with the whole grade skip. No one really even suspects that he is skipped. He fits right in with the other kids, even physically. But we are in a small rural school with only one second grade (two 3rd grade classes though) so people are more likely to "find out" about him going up a grade level. The bottom line is that he will be standing out sooner or later if he continues at this pace much longer! I guess we just need to deal with it.

Dottie: That was reassuring to hear about how your son got cocky when the work was still too easy. My son has acted that way - pretty sure that he is the "smartest kid in the class" or even the school! He needs to be challenged so badly! Big fish in a little pond is NOT always a great place to be.

I'm so please to hear that the testing is going and going! 3 cheers for Mr. Principal - others have just given up when they get to that point!
Yes, the more Mr. Principal knows your son, the better the long term outlook.
AND yes - big fish in little ponds suffer - perhaps it's the increased Nitrogen?

Smiles ((foot stomping and hat waving))
Trinity

LOL! Trin, you are too funny!

I got some feedback later today about the testing. Mr. Principal said that he has noticed that MrWiggly either does the problem and gets it right, or doesn't attempt it. Yeah, that would be his perfectionism, I suppose. We definitely need to work on that effort and "give it a try" thing!

He also commented that MrWiggly pretty much aced the first 1/3 of the assessment which represented material covered in the first 1/3 of 3rd grade. Yikes. We will need to be differentiating pretty quickly even in 3rd grade. And I thought MrWiggly took the summer off from learning math! Hopefully by next Monday we'll know just how far into 3rd grade he seems to be.

Wow Debbie!
I'm so pleased to be hearing that he is being tested is so much depth! This way you can be confident that if they end up sending him to 4th grade, or offering "Art of Problem Solving" independent study during math for the first few months, that he won't be developing bad "Gaps."

((roll clip from Wizard of Oz:
Munchkin to Dorthy: "Are you a good Gap or a Bad Gap?"
"But Sir, I'm not a Gap at all!"
end clip))

What curriculum were you using at home? How far did you get with it? What about that famous "skill" stumbling block - the times tables? How old is your DS now?

BTW - I wouldn't actual worry about perfectionism yet. Perhaps he's just good at remembering what he's learned and what he hasn't and is trying to do his best. It will be key for him to get a brief "tutoring session" on the stuff he doesn't know to "see how fast he learns" and for the distinction to be made clearly and verbally and check to be sure he understands the difference. I think you would have gotten some hints if he was having issues with perfectionism. Do you see this at home? And of course, the hints of perfectionism, or it's full blown version is one of the key reasons for grade or subject acceleration. ((shrug)) It's the Nitrogen buildup thing.


Yippee!
Trin

Well.....MrWiggly completed his third one hour session with the principal today. And without even having to have a meeting the principal informed us that MrWiggly will start the school year in 3rd grade math! Mr. Principal also stated that they intend to meet MrWiggly's educational needs ALL school year and that they are already prepared for making changes as the year progresses. Apparently Mr. Principal did a little instruction as well and had the opportunity to see how MrWiggly catches on rather quickly!

I feel so elated!!! Like I have scored a major conquest in advocacy! This is the principal who, last year, insisted that we had to enroll son in K and they would do their own assessment as the year progressed. He was previously adamant about NOT accelerating!!! Oh, I so hope that this effort pays off not only for MrWiggly but for others at the school, even in the district.

Now for being sure that the social/peer aspect goes well. The big thing is that MrWiggly is excited too. He is thrilled to NOT have to do 2nd grade math! There is no hesitation on his part in going to 3rd grade for the math class. So that should help us a lot. Wish us all luck!

Debbie,

This is wonderful news. I�m so pleased for you all! Kudos to Mr. Principle too! He sounds like he has been keeping up with his continuing education also.

Your son and mine have a lot in common. Both are the youngest in the grade with additional subject acceleration in math. Mr. Wiggly is lucky to have been offered this in 2nd grade rather than having to wait until 5th like my son. As you may remember, we just turned down a (second?) skip. If it had been offered earlier during his 2nd -4th grade years, we would have snatched it. Perhaps that might be an option you could consider sooner (rather than later). Just my BTDT perspective.

My son was a little apprehensive about entering another class while the other students were already settled in. He also knew that his situation would not help him gain popularity with his base line grade. The desire for further challenge was stronger than his fears and he enjoyed �school math� for the first time. It sounds like Mr. Wiggly will also appreciate this opportunity.

You have done well advocating for your son!

Debbie:

You have really achieved success! Congrats! If you have time to reply, what do you think was the turning point? Was there any particular argument that finally moved Mr. Principal to decide on an evaluation and appropriate placement?

Oh Debbie!
((ticker tape parade down Broadway in New York City!!))
You made things work for your son, and converted a person in power to be a friend of Highly Gifted kids!
((Ermine Cape, Crown, and Jeweled Scepter placed on Debbie, beaming proudly))
I've just now imagined a Trinity Hall of Fame, and your story is in it! I'm so proud of you, and of all of us for being a small part of it.
Yessss!
You did an amazing thing. The odds were against you, but you persevered.
((For she's a jolly good fellow on bagpipes))
Wow - Wow - Wow
Trinity

Thank you all, for such supportive and understanding responses! I was at work when my husband told me the news and (as you all know) the couple of people I told at work were NOT as thrilled as we all are!

Trinity, I am honored by your kudos! I am glad to moving into the same arena as Dottie, where I can say that I've not only BTDT but had some success to share with others coming up in the "field of battle."

BK1: I think that this has been a slow process, turning the principal around. It involved us presenting the school with private testing last summer, then MrWiggly having a great 1st grade teacher who recognized a qualitative difference in his learning and then the fact that we had to homeschool math last spring (son was so bored in math class he was becoming disruptive and refusing to get on the bus in the morning!). Last year when we pulled him to homeschool we asked if they would consider the 3rd grade placement in the fall. Sometime, with all that going on, the principal really did a 180 degree turn around.

Delbows: When we talked about this last night, my son asked if anyone else from his class would be going to 3rd for math. He seemed disappointed to hear the answer was no and I worried that he might be feeling anxious about the new class. But then I told him how lucky he was to have TWO classes and that many more friends to have. He said it was okay, because "I want to do that math, not the kindergarten stuff!" So I am sure that this move will work out just fine.

I wonder if it's worth it to ask the Principal if there are a few other kids who could also be offered 3rd grade math? My DH did math and reading one year up all through elementary with a handful of other boys, who became this core friends. It would have to be very casual, as in, "Oh this funny idea came into my head, that I should ask if any other boys can be sent up with him, maybe it would encourage friendships?" ((sexism intentional))

I do think it's a pain, but worth doing, but yes - in a just world they would find a boy or two to go with him. There is no doubt in my mind that they have a few who could do the work.

Smiles,
Trin