Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC V vs. WRAT-5

I finally took my now 7 year-old son to get tested at a psychologist and I am wondering if there can be large differences between his WISC V and the WRAT-5 scores. I know one is IQ and one is acheivement but should his achievement be that much higher than his IQ? His FSIQ was 137 (99%) but his WRAT scores were all above 145 (99.9%). His reading scored at a 9.5 grade level. I am just wondering if this is common or did we somehow nurture him extremely well so his achievement exceeds his abilities? Maybe he just pushes himself hard? I felt a little concerned about the psychologist after she told me dyslexia is not genetic...

There are two main considerations relevant to your concerns about comparing the WISC-V and WRAT-5:

1. regression to the mean: there is some expected variation when you compare two instruments. An eight-point difference is not all that huge, when you consider standard error and regression to the mean.

2. screening vs comprehensive assessment: the WRAT-5 is considered an academic screener only, as it samples only a few academic skills, all of which are mechanical, rather than problem solving in nature. For reading, it samples word calling (reading a list of words), for writing, spelling in isolation, and for math, computations. No data on higher-level comprehension, expression, or reasoning is obtained. It is also not timed, so any fluency issues would not necessarily show up.

What concerns drove you to pursue evaluation?

ETA: Checked back on your previous post. Was this eval just to clarify the GT questions, or did you have other concerns, such as dyslexia?

Oh, and I'd be concerned about an evaluator claiming that dyslexia is not genetic, too. Although your DC doesn't appear to have indications of reading disabilities, at the moment.

Hi aeh! Thank you so much for always responding. I decided to get him tested because he's been struggling with tummy pain for over a year and he's so unhappy to go to school every day. We've exhausted most of the medical options--the last one being doing an endoscopy, which makes me nervous because I don't want him put under anesthesia. I'm thinking his tummy problems might be anxiety brought on by schooling but we feel like we have exhausted the options in front of us. This morning he cried and doubled up in pain and I pushed him out the van door anyway.

I read somewhere that kids with IQs between 130-145 can usually do OK in a normal classroom with GT accomodations and since I didn't know where on the spectrum he fell, I thought getting him tested would help me realize what interventions he needed. I thought I would have my answers by getting a FSIQ and I still just don't know. I thought having an IQ of 137 would mean he would be ok in a GT classroom that follows the grade curriculum (with the exception of a few different projects) but then I look at his WRAT and see that he is operating in between a 5th grade and 9th grade level on some topics and it's no wonder he doesn't want to go to 1st grade. I'm just so confused on what he needs and how to supply it for him. I just don't understand what I need to do for him based on the scores he received.

Hi again aeh! I had my daugher tested through the schools. Her father and grandmother are dyslexic and I think my oldest son is too. Anyway, I showed the psychologist my daughter's scores on the WISC (done through the school) and asked her to help me interpret them because the school wouldn't say anything except my daugher didn't qualify for special services. One of my teacher friends told me they can't say anything or they may be held accountable legally to provide services. Anyway her Crystallized Intelligence was 127 but her Rapid Symbolic naming was only a 90.

I was hoping the psychologist could give me insight on why there seemed to be a huge gap between her verbal intelligence and her ability to name letters and read. She also took the Woodcock Johnson and her reading fluency is 92. I asked the psychologist what this might mean and told her that my husband and his mom were dyslexic and she told me that I didn't need to worry because dyslexia wasn't genetic. My third son--the one who tested into the gifted program--doesn't seem to have signs of dyslexia but my first son does. He was still reading 4 grade levels higher than his grade.

Anyway, my older children are happy at school so I guess it doesn't matter although I am curious about them. However, my third child has been in so much pain and I'm just trying to fix it:(.

I appreciate your knowledge so much!

Two more thoughts came to mind this afternoon. The reason I thought that the difference between 137 and 145 would be bigger is because I read somewhere that as you move farther away from the norm the difference between the scale points becomes greater. Does that make sense? So the difference between someone who scored 107 and 115 wouldn't be as great as two children who score 137 and 145. Is that right?

Also, after reading your response I am wondering if perhaps the test results show that my son is more academically-gifted (i.e. book learning; he can learn rules, memorize, etc.) instead of creatively-gifted? He did take the CogAT through the schools and scored in the 99% on both Verbal and Quantitative but in the 95% for Nonverbal, which I've heard measure creativity better. I've heard that the Verbal and Quantitative sections are more indicative of academic success. What do you think?

Just because a student doesn't score above 145 on a cognitive assessment doesn't necessarily mean they will be able to be accommodated in a regular GT classroom. Some will, and some won't. I would probably have put the range of can-manage-okay as more like 120-135, with the upper end depending a lot on their personal strength areas and temperament. I would agree, though, that a GT classroom, even one without accelerated curriculum, may bring school within the just-tolerable range for some of those 130-140 range learners. That's a far cry from being an actively good learning environment, though. And it won't be enough for some even to tolerate going to school.

On your DD, low rapid naming is definitely a red flag for word-level reading disabilities. Her rapid naming and reading fluency are not normatively low, but they are certainly a whole lot lower than her verbal cognition appears to be. How that plays into qualifying for special education depends on your state and district regs. How is her actual word-level reading, especially of nonsense words (including tests with names like word attack or pseudoword decoding)?

And since you suspect some kind of reading difference in your DS1 as well...you note that he reads well above his grade level; what are the signs of reading challenge that you see? What does he do well/poorly with when reading? Happy at school is excellent, and more important than most other educational indicators, in my book. But if reading or writing are at all aversive to him, despite his high levels, it may affect his educational and career choices.

On your 3rd: I think we discussed some of the options for addressing social needs in homeschooling settings. If he is in intense distress right now in school, and you don't appear to have options for changing anything for the remaining month of school, it may be worthwhile to consider the homeschooling option. Clearly, he won't miss any necessary instruction (he wouldn't even if he weren't above grade level academically; it's the last month of elementary school--the traditional domain of field trips, field day, and popcorn/pizza parties), and it appears to be causing undue psychic pain to continue attending school.

My first two had recurrent ear infections. DS1 getting ear tubes at 11 mos., 3, and 5 years. DD didn't get tubes until she was 2 because the doctor wanted to keep putting it off to see if she could get through the season. DD had speech and reading intervention in pre-k through 1st grade. Both DS1 and DD have terrible spelling. We would study for hours and they'd only get a few right just to forget the spelling the next time--even simple words. Both love stories, but became very proficient at a young age at downloading audiobooks from the library. They still choose to listen instead of read because reading makes them "work too hard." I was reading a book on dyslexia this year and it talked about different ways it can present itself. I read to DS1 that some people say the words shake and mix and he said, "That's me! That's what happens to me." DS1 was put in a GT pull-out class in Kindergarten without testing. It was just the teacher's call. Honestly, I don't see that he has any real difficulty reading now, although DD's reading is still halting (not fluent.) Spelling for him is still difficult and handwriting is terrible. He is in all Pre-AP classes in 6th grade which also double as GT classes for the school and he does really well. He enjoys the academics and teachers don't take off points for his spelling or handwriting which I was surprised about.

Just looked at DDs "word attack" on the Woodcock Johnson. It was 98. From what I understand, where we live, nothing above 90 receives special services even if there is a large gap between verbal and written performance.

I have insecurities about homeschooling. I tried to homeschool DS3 for a month and I loved working with him, but I fear that I wont do well enough. He also misses kids a lot and I am an introvert. The thought of orchestrating social interaction causes me extreme stress. We might have no other option though. The doctor gave him pain medication to take before school in the morning and he says it does help.

I really truly appreciate the conversation. Thank you for talking me through this.

A history of recurrent ear infections in early childhood can certainly be associated with relative weaknesses in phonemic awareness, because of vulnerabilities in speech sound discrimination, which then cause them to have a much poorer sound-symbol correspondence (the sounds they perceive aren't the same ones NT learners perceive, so it's hard to associate those perceptions with our writing system). And yes, in high-functioning learners, often the only place you really notice it is in spelling.

Whether your schools would qualify either of your older kids for special education, you still have options for focused remediation. Although you probably would have difficulty working purely on reading remediation with someone who reads as well as your DS1 does, it may be worthwhile to try an Orton-Gillingham-based spelling intervention on your DS1 and DD. (I used All About Spelling https://www.allaboutlearningpress.com/all-about-spelling, starting right from Level 1, Lesson 1, fast-tracking through the known skills, and slowing down for the gaps--and there were gaps, sometimes in quite unexpected places. There are other home curricula, such as Barton and Logic of English, but All About Spelling separates spelling from reading, which makes it feel a little less babyish for some learners.) I found that it had ancillary benefits for reading as well, since it's the same intervention, just from the spelling/encoding angle, rather than the reading/decoding angle.

If phonetic decoding (sounding out unknown words) is actually intact, you could also try a fluency intervention. I usually recommend HELPS http://www.helpsprogram.org/materials.php, which is a free download/low-cost printed curriculum. It's evidence-based and targeted at fluency. Both AAS and HELPS are designed to be implemented in short, frequent sessions (20 minutes apiece, 3-5 sessions a week). Both are scripted, and can be used effectively by a reasonably responsible college student or a parent.

And on homeschooling your DS3, if you loved it, and he was less distressed than when in school, then on balance, it may be that the missing of kids is not as critical as the need for a seven-year-old to be on pain medication just to make it into school. He can still participate in extracurriculars with other kids. Many public schools will even allow home schoolers to bring kids in for afterschool activities and sports, or possibly for specials (art, music, gym).