Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments School Choices HELP!

I am new at the posting, but have been looking around on the site for the past few months. I have spent the summer in distress about my DS4 (5 in 2 months), who was starting the Pre-K at Public school. He started last Thursday and it was worse than anticipated. Tried again Friday and aren't sending him back Monday. He spoke 3 inaudible words on Thursday and said nothing on Friday, but when I pick him up it is nonstop talking. He ask me about the Gazebo outside, because he had been looking at it out the window of his class. On Friday he locked me out of the car and begged for me not to make him go in there. The night before he told me he would runaway from school and he was never going back. There are more examples to list, but I will spare you. Needless to say, this is not my son!!! He was distant on the first day and started lashing out more on the following.

Before starting school I called the GT teacher and emailed, with no replies. Spoke to the counselor, who says oh he will be fine and testing is unneccessary, because if you test this young they almost always test gifted. Along with a book recommendation that pales in comparision to anything else I have read. I guess it is fine if you want more opinion than research, cartoon illustrations throughout, and dumbed down writing. I guess I take offense to underestimating my son's abilities and mine as well.

School teacher just says it's okay and he'll get along with the program. What program I ask myself? He tells me they are having snacks, playing on the playground, group bathroom trips, and singing nursery songs. Head, shoulders, knees, and toes anyone? What is he suppose to do? At home he is labeling parts of the skeletal system and organs, why would he point to his head while singing along. He has mastered all the skills for Pre-K and almost all of K. We struggle with some fine motor, but what is in his head and what thoughts he conveys, I don't understand how I or they can expect him to assimilate to his age peers.

After my ramblings, my questions are:

1. Is it right to not send him back? (I guess I'm seeking validation.)

2. We are strongly considering Montessori, becuase of individual pace and flexibility of learning. This school goes up to 8th grade and then off to find another option for high school. Comments?

3. GT school?

4. Other private?

I worry about him because he is so self-directed. Montessori is basically how we naturally function at home, so it seems like a good fit, but getting in can prove challenging because of size limitations. I just want more info on long term adjustment from Montessori. I just feel like right now with Public we are getting the response of we will just keep smashing away until your round son fits into our square hole. I do not want to lose my son!!! What is wrong with being a square?

Ok only since you asked but this is just my opinion.

I would send him back. To do otherwise says - if you don't like something you just don't show up. Plus with so little time spent, you probably aren't 100% on what his issue is. It is possible that once some of the kids in class get into a groove he'll find his place. Now mind you, I view sending him to another school an option but I would switch schools. Not "quit" one and then find one and then start. You know. Might just be me.

I think the "all kids test high" is a pile of crap. our all gt charter school struggled to get enough kids in the door because at least half of the kids would miss the cut off. yes, i think a lot of kids score high at that age -- because the testing is parent directed - we are seeking it. ug, that was a silly thing to tell you.

If you are turning 5 in oct - have you thought about early entrance - albeit I know not as popular with the boys as the girls. or private K?

No matter how fabulous our kids are they still need to follow the rules. I'd give it a college try for a week while looking into openings in other programs... and if it doesn't shape up - move to another program.

Just one opinion.

How 'bout Private testing? If he's legal in your state to enter K, then he's legal to skip to 1st grade, but without test results, I don't know if it would fly. If you can afford the Montessori or private GT school, I would at least investigate their programs to see if they're much different for K age (most school settings have playground, bathroom trips, songs, etc...I don't care much for it myself).
My youngest DS was tested shortly before he turned 5 and I brought the results into the principal. His skills were developed, which is always a concern with teachers/admin. He could read, write short sentences, basic math. Based on IQ and Achievement (skills), the principal let him go right into 1st grade (Note--none of my advocacy has ever gone that smoothely before or since). It has to be easy for them. Maybe pleasantly asking if they'd let him try two weeks in the 1st grade? Every school is different and maybe that's not at all possible at your school.

I'm not sure if this is relevent to your situation, but I was just reading an article by Deborah Ruf about boys in early entrance situations. http://www.educationaloptions.com/news_Apr_08.htm#one

Certainly, not all boys are going to have problems in an academic setting. But I found it validating in that it suggests that just because a kid is quite gifted, it doesn't mean that early school is best. But sometimes a year of hanging out at home and playing with parents and neighborhood kids can be good for a kid.

acs - I've read that article and I totally agree with it for some kids (not just boys). I think it definitely was true for my DS7. He went to kindergarten old for grade (turned 6 in Oct after he started K). I think he learned a lot more that year before K (and was a lot happier) by not going to school a year earlier. We did an all day, structured rigorous kindergarten. Just because a kid is HG+, doesn't mean he/she is emotionally and physically ready to sit and listen (and buy into) a teacher's agenda all day.

I know another MG boy who went to K the same year as my son. He turned 5 right before kindergarten started. He was very engaged in kindergarten, and his general behavior was considerably better than my DS's. He is a kid that likes structure and rules. It has a lot to do with personality and temperament.

I know there is a lot to consider and our brains are on fire with these scenerios. He is not one to do or demonstrate something simply because you ask him, referring to participation and skills. He is content to work quietly alone for long periods of time. He has never enjoyed or joined in despite exposure to birthday parties, storytimes, playgrounds, etc. He likes to make his niche and explore alone or with us. The exception is if adults or older children are accessible he will seek them out. However, this does not seem to be the case with his teacher. I should clarify a patronizing adult he will dismiss.

It is a public offering for all. It is NOT mandatory. It is part of the public school, not like head start. This demographic should be roughly the same for K and on.

Well, assuming the child doesn't overreact and act like this every time a situation isn't 100% perfect, I don't agree, kickball. The child LOCKED HIS MOM OUT OF THE CAR to avoid going to school! This does not seem to me to be a little thing!

Far from saying that the rules (???) don't apply, I think that pulling a miserable child out of school says, "I understand that you're really, severely unhappy and ill-placed, and I am on your side. You can count on me to safeguard your interests." That's important for a child to hear from a parent. If he were 12 and chose the program himself, then I can see making him tough it out. But the kid is 4!

A week is a huge amount of time for a miserable 4yo. And it doesn't sound like this school is even trying to help. They don't get him, and they don't sound like they intend to. What light is there at the end of that particular tunnel? I'm not seeing it.

I'm not saying that every mom should pull every child out of school at the first sign of trouble. But I firmly believe that if your mom-gut says "pull him" or "accelerate him" or "change programs," and *you're* not the sort to overreact any more than your child is, then I think that's what you do. Moms are usually right.

Pre-K is not a requirement, so if you don't think the situation is going to improve, if you don't think this is just part of the normal adjustment to being away from home, if you think he shouldn't be there anymore, then I think it's perfectly reasonable to pull him out, accelerate him or switch programs.

CFK-- I just wanted to say that I love your post! I think your experience with 2 kids with similar ability and different temperments really gives you great perspective.

I have a kid much like you 9 year old and sometimes that limits my ability to understand kids like your older boy. That's why I love this board--more perspectives!

I really appreciate the feedback. It is amazing, but when you consider statistic no so, that more people don't understand. I stopped working a year ago, to focus on facilitating his learning more. It had gotten to the point that I needed to stop to keep up and now a year later I feel I am drowning a bit again. I can't emphasis resources enough. I just keep finding more information and things to expose him to and it is amazing the overall growth. He just wants more, so that is why I think school is frustrating. I am sorry to hear about your son, because that is what I fear if I leave him in this situation. I can stretch myself and give more and he can stay home if needed. I was amazed the emotional change in him after just 2 days of school. It leads me to believe he would internalize and implode. The aspect of his academic gains is far outweighted in my mind by the need to raise a healthy, well adjusted person, who can hopefully cope and function in the world. The bitter true is it is so intertwined.

Change the she to a he above and you have duplicated my son in his preschool/daycare program. Shortly after turning 4 he became such a behavior problem at school. He had become agressive towards his teachers and his peers. I should have listened to him when he told me that he hated going to daycare. Only a few short weeks after moving him to a new school the behaviors disappeared. I wish I hadn't waited so long to make the change. I endured 9 months of daily bad reports from my son's teachers. I will never do that again.

Once again I appreciate all the stories, because it is those perspectives that the majority of people around us do not seem to be aware of or understand. We are planning today what to do tommorrow and on down the road. Our decision for now is reaffirmed with what he said this morning. While eating breakfeast this morning he said, I'm sad today. I asked him if he knew what was making him sad. He said, because of Mrs. >>>(his teacher). He tells me that she is "cross" with him and yells about how it isn't playtime, but then she takes us to the playground (mixed message?). He continues to go on about all the things she tells the students not to do, and how he is sitting on a bench alone. I have heard her LOUDLY say "It isn't playtime get a book and sit down on the rug." Personally I read into this message, because what a way to start of killing a love of books. Some kids think of reading as play. However, or son sees most play and calls it his work, but is intense, focused, and perpetually seeking learning oppurtunities
We are trying, process started last week, to get into a group of psychologists and developmental ped, so we can approach it from that angle. We want to understand if there is anything else we are unaware of and how to help him the most. It is all about helping , understanding, and working with him.
We have had someone suggest that we might look into asperger's, OCD, and/or ADHD because of some behaviors. It just seems that there can be definite overlap in some of his behaviors with these disorders, however his behaviors can be strictly GT as well. It does not matter to me. My son is my son and he is who he is, you just want to understand.
One thought is the idea of going back for at least one more day for observation. I don't know the damage that could cause, if we would gain much, or if he would behave to differently. Obviously I would watch his behavior, the teachers, the other students, and the interactions between the individuals. Maybe I could see something that is not working for him, so we don't repeat our mistakes. I completly agree with Master Of None. We must keep looking, learning, and trying to understand.

Right there is perfectly good and reasonable comment to justify homeschooling. I also have a similar story with Pre-k and K as you and the others. I thought that I would be sending a bad message by pulling her out repetetively. And that she had to learn to adjust to a situation that was not perfect or totally optimum. I still feel that way, but have learned that a full day at school was an innapropriate environment to have her learn this. I should have pulled her earlier and provided these opportunites in other venues. Whatever you decide, good luck.
Even with the damage that was done to youngest over two years, she is in front of me right now acting like her total litte self and very happy. I don't see any long term negative effects, per se, I think the kids are so resillient at this age. A calm decision is always better than one made out of fear and panic.

Neato

Thanks. I think I am somewhat overwhelmed with the concept of homeschooling. Part of me believes he would thrive, but I know at a certain point I will need greater resources. I feel like you get things together and ah hah I've done it. I'm ahead for a minuter and then not so quick mom, and it is time to start digging again. It would allow catering to his style more, he seems very visual-spatial. He loves learning through manipulation, discovery, and investigation. It is like he is in a trance if something is new and it is on the TV or the computer. He tries to memorize and learning it as fast as possible, so he can repeat it all back to you. The computer is a majors tool in our home, since it works so well for him.
It seems the younger age group can be more difficult with options sometimes. When he is closer to 4th grade, so many more external options open up it seems. I'm sure some agree the library is a tremendous help. I know I suck everything out of it possible.

Hi AM,

When I was moved from an accelerated program in Montessori where I was with grades 4-7 back to public school in 2d grade, I was much the same way. The teacher told my mom I was "incorrigible.".

Things escalated on both sides. The final straw for everyone was when one day I was put in detention and instead of staying there, I walked out of school and walked home. Heh. The school went frantic looking for me.

The solution was to let me read by myself in class on whatever I wanted as long as I took the tests with everyone and was quiet. Not the best solution. But a solution. Now as I look back, I can see that my mom dreaded the school calling!!!

Your son is very strong willed, has initiative, and and is very inventive. No doubt he will come up with something similar to the above with the same kind of emotional impact on all involved. He sounds like a wonderful kid.

Good luck!!!

AM -

I hope that you can look into Montessori. When my son was 2.5 we pulled him out of an "academic" preschool/day care and put him in a Montessori. It has worked out really well the last year and a half.

The preschool/day care didn't get him. I would say, "he is having conversations with adults and his classmates don't use full sentences yet." They wouldn't put him with the threes because he wasn't potty trained. bah!

At the Montessori his best friends are the kids 6 -18 months older. He is thriving there being as verbal as he wants to be, going at his own pace.

good luck!

- EW

I won't get into the Montessori debate--we've had it here enough times that you can search for it and read what's been said in the past.

I'll just say that the usual conclusion that the majority comes to here is that the *individual* teacher and school and *whether they get your child or not* makes a lot more difference that having the label of any particular method, including Montessori. Some Montessori schools are fantastic! Some are just as rigid and difficult as the place you're at now, AM. The only way to tell if it will be a good fit for your child is to visit and ask questions. And even then, you can't always tell.

Definitely look at Montessori, but I'd say you should look at other programs, too, if you're intending to switch programs. A play-based half-day program at a church or other private provider can be a great fit, too...depending on the *individual* teacher and school and *whether they get your child or not*, of course! That's always what it comes down to!

As previous posters have said, it is very validating for a child - no matter what their age - to come to their parent(s) with concerns and be taken seriously.

Another personal story: Our DS8 endured public school until he just couldn't anymore - 2 days after returning from winter break he finally verbalized it. And he was right, absolutely right. As it happened, he only had one more day in the situation before we pulled him out - to homeschool/alternative public school. And our DS changed back to his loving, excited, enthusiastic, self-directed learning personality.

What a tough situation! I'm not sure I'd be pulling my ds after only a week ... but I can't say I *wouldn't* be either. If there's a clear mismatch and you know it right away, no point making the kid suffer.

I wanted to put a word in for Montessori. My ds6 entered Montessori Early Childhood when he was 4y3m (switch from normal "daycare") and absolutely thrived there. He entered reading fairly simple books (Dr. Seuss and the like) and 8 months later he was at a mid-third grade level. He was allowed to do higher place value in math (he was at 10,000s when he left at 5y1m) and start learning multiplication. So he certainly wasn't being held back, and being allowed to push forward at his own pace -- something that wouldn't have happened in a standard setting.

Obviously, this isn't all due to the school -- but it *was* in part due to the opportunity to explore during the day. It was play in his eyes, but directed, goal-setting play.

And my favorite part about it was that there was focus on self-help and independence; my ds is an only child and gets a *lot* of coddling at home. And there was a strong focus on interpersonal skills -- peer teaching, group problem solving, etc. So not only was he growing academically, but he was growing personally and learning to make connections with other kids.

Obviously, Montessori isn't the only way to go ... but it is a great philosophy to look in to with a young gifted kid. And obviously, what Kriston said. All Montessori schools, like all private schools and all public schools and *all* schools, are only as good as their teachers and administrators. Go on a few observation days.

You may also want to look at gifted schools in your area. We're switching to a private gifted school after a disastrous year in public K. At the new school, the kids are divided into groups of 3 or 4 for core subjects based on ability, but have age-appropriate, two-year homerooms for gym, art, music, and writing (ds will be in a 1st/2nd split room this year). I love that they separate reading and writing, so a kid who writes like a 5yo but reads like a 10yo is able to progress in *both* those skills independently. I know my ds's school has a preK program ... maybe there's something like that near you?

Good luck! I hope your poor ds isn't too traumatized.