Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Further evaluation for DD?

Hello all,

So I got DD8 was tested with the WISC-IV. Results as follows:

VC 140 (composite)
Scaled Subtests:
S 17
V 18
C 15

PR 123 (composite)
B 14
P 13
M 14

WM 132 (composite)
D 15
L 16

PS 131 (composite)
C 15
S 16

FSIQ 140 (99.6%)

If I have calculated her GAI correctly, it is a 138. If I have done this wrong, someone please tell me!

I don't quite understand the large disparity in Verbal Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning; I've read that the GAI is a more reliable indicator of giftedness, but then I look at her processing speed scores, they seem very high, what does that mean?

More context: DD was born in Thailand and lived there till she was 18 months, making a complete switch from Thai to English (as well as all cultural factors) at that time. When she was 18 months old, she knew the alphabet in English and Thai - that's 46 letters in a tonal language. Could that early exposure to two very disparate languages help account for the high processing scores?

Her mother has learned to speak English fairly fluently since we've gotten here, but still speaks mainly in Thai, as well as all the cultural stuff that goes with that. Her mother is also not formally educated past high school, although I'm pretty sure she's smarter than me ... DD does not speak Thai very well, and hasn't learned to read or write it, but the last time we were back there for a month when she was still 6, she was yammering on near-fluently (although not colloquially) by the end of that time.

My point in bringing this up is that DD has had some pretty unique forces at work shaping her intelligence (to the extent that environment is a factor). Maybe this doesn't matter?

Further, we live in a very rural area and in the local school district there is zero, zilch, nada for GT. We are strongly considering relocating to an area that does have such programs, as well as other related resources. She is extremely bored in school, most of the time, as you'd expect, although I think the local teachers have done their best - they just don't know how to handle someone like her.

But, man. Uprooting our whole lives on the basis of a single test? (Although as I say, I've known she's GT her whole life.) I guess I want more information ... I'd like her to be in the DYS program, mainly because I feel like the Family Consulting they offer would be of enormous help to us in making such decisions. But I realize these scores don't hit the minimum qualifications for DYS.

So I've read that some kids when they take the Stanford-Binet end up scoring much higher than on the WISC (we just used the WISC because that was what the school pyschologist we could find to administer it uses - we had to go out of district as the SPED in our district flatly refused to administer one), and that also that test provides a more nuanced picture of a child's intellect.

So my question is, should we seek out further testing? Or is the WISC-IV sufficient? Is it enough to know that she's highly gifted (just probably not profoundly), and seek out a better school district on that basis?

Yes, that GAI is correct, based on the scores you've provided.

Generally speaking, GAI is a more reliable measure of giftedness, as the indices that go into it are more heavily loaded for abstract thinking and problem solving skills, and less closely associated with rote efficiency. This doesn't mean that there is no value in having a high PSI; actually, having MG reasoning in combination with MG PSI may be more functional for most people than having HG reasoning and, say, Average or below PSI.

VCI is notably higher than PRI, which does suggest that she may have a verbal preference. In a much lower-functioning child, this difference might present as learning challenges, possibly in mathematics or writing, but where she has no index scores below the Superior range, there is no obvious reason to believe that this would be the case for her (unless you have other data that suggests there is).

Her early experiences viz diverse cultural and linguistic experiences are unlikely to have any relationship to her high PSI. They are more likely to have affected her VCI. Given the speed with which she appears to have picked up English, her youth when she entered an immersive English environment, and the number of years she has since spent in and English-speaking society, I doubt that she has any lingering second-language effects of the deleterious sort. There is research on fully bilingual (oral expressive and receptive) individuals that finds that their metalinguistic skills are superior to cognitively-matched monolingual learners, and that they tend to have better-developed executive functions (due to having to suppress the other language when processing one language, and from constant code-switching).

I do not recommend shopping IQ scores by searching for additional instruments, although I can see how it's a little tempting, where she misses the DYS cutoff by only 5 points. I also don't find that the SB can be accurately described as providing a more nuanced picture of a child's intellect, as a generalization. Actually, my experience has sometimes been the reverse, both in terms of nuance, and in terms of higher scores.

More importantly, this score doesn't change any of the things you already knew to be the case about her as a child and a learner. Nor is the difference between service needs for a child scoring just above the cutoff, and one scoring just below, all that significant. If she appears to be happy, growing (as an all around person, not only academically), and engaged in her current educational placement, then it may not be that critical to move on the basis of a single score. And if she is not, moving to another district may or may not resolve that.

Did the examiner give you any feedback or recommendations for instructional settings or modifications?

Thanks very much for your insights. I think she very definitely has a verbal preference, although I do wonder, too, how much that has to do with what she's been exposed to. She's been very quick with math and related areas - piano, chess - since she was quite young but has not received much in the way of enrichment / speeding up in any formal math instruction, for instance.

Thanks, also, for your insights on whether to seek out more testing. The pysch that performed the testing has a good deal of exprience working with gifted kids, so there's no reason to think his assessment is inaccurate. He did give some recommendations for DD's instruction - that she be allowed to move ahead at her own pace, and to be placed for some core academic subjects with kids in 4th or even 5th grade (she's a 3rd grader). As he is not in-district, his recommendations didn't get any more specific than that.

We have met with DD's principal and classroom teacher, and they are willing to have her walk to 4th or even 5th grade math classes, but the trouble is in the scheduling - doing that might mean her missing recess and lunch with her friends, or PE/Art/Music. Frankly, those are the only things she really likes about school and I don't much like the thought of her missing those things. What she really needs, I think, is to be with her age-level AND intellectual peers. Which is simply not going to happen in our local school district.

But you're right; that doesn't necessarily mean that it will improve elsewhere, even in a full-blooded GT program. I'm reluctant to uproot; however I also I need to what's best for DD, and surely any sort of GT program would be better than nothing and the years of boredom she faces if we stay where we are?

(I can see why folks homeschool; but this is not an option for us.)

There is the potential for online stuff, maybe through Redbird or through the state's virtual academy, but just not sure how that would work, and, there wouldn't be much in the way of instruction (she'd be doing it all on her own).

Overall she doesn't *mind* school, but does complain of boredom a good deal.

I wouldn't be able to go personally to teach her, no, unfortunately.

I also worry a bit about this going forward - it's not just math, she's obviously very high on verbal and could be doing all kinds of much higher work, to say nothing of science, social studies, and so on - but the options locally seem to be either she does them on her own online (while possibly still being physically in the classroom), or waiting. I don't think she should wait and frankly based on my own experiences teaching online (albeit to college kids), I'm a bit skeptical of online work as the basis for fundamental learning for DD. I think it's great for extension and enrichment, but for core learning, I'm not sure how well it would suit DD.

Reading over this, it looks like I may be trying to talk myself into relocating. Maybe I am ...?

If she could be doing all kinds of higher work and she is currently bored have you considered full grade rather than single subject acceleration? I know it's a big idea but we actually found it more successful than SSA as it avoided the issues of juggling timetable clashes and missing fun subjects. It might be worth considering if your school is already being flexible enough to consider SSA. A trial for a few weeks would give everyone the opportunity to see if it might work?
It certainly easier than relocating, which still may happen, but might give you breathing space and a better idea of what works for your DD and what her needs are.

She did skip kindergarten, so she's already quite young in her class ... I think the school would go for it but when I talked to DD about it, she really doesn't want to do that. She's that lucky kind of gifted kid that is able to relate to kids her age (well, just a touch older than her) and she has really good friends and she doesn't want to be with the big kids (her words). Despite how precocious she is, she's not especially gregarious or outgoing and remains shy in group situations until she's really sure of the ground upon which she's standing.

So obviously all that would play into a move, too.

Our DD was very similar in her nature so I understand your concerns. Fortunately our experience with acceleration was very positive so I wouldn't rule it out particularly if you change school districts and leaving friends is going to happen regardless. If you or she have concerns then SSA with an opt out clause might work as a trial. If her third grade class is going to be doing something fun then maybe she can do that and go up for maths at other times.

Your other option is differentiated work in the classroom and allowing her to do higher grade material. We found a few challenges with that option. Our DD likes to work and learn with others so even though she works well alone it isn't as much fun for her. It can also be hard if the third grade teacher doesn't fully support it or lacks the time to provide adequate instruction.

The other issue is that it sounds like your daughter is not just bored in math. Maybe yo can explore all possible options with the school before you consider moving. A flexible school that is willing to work with you is often hard to find and can be more valuable than one touting GT options. Flexibility is key with our kids.

Those are really good points.

Can I ask you, with grade-skipping, what's the end game? I mean, at this IQ range I think DD could potentially be one of those kids who finishes high school 3 or 4 years early. Then what? Off to college?

I guess you could call this my meta-concern with grade-skipping. Shy as she is, I bet she could make the adjustment, and then run through 4th grade material, and then 5th, ... etc.

It's why, in the abstract at least, it seems to me like being with her peers in a GT program would be preferable. That way she gets the whole-school experience, at ages appropriate to her.

But then again I do some research and converse with folks like yourself that say acceleration worked very well for them. Which, to bring it full circle, is when I start worrying about the end game. I'd really appreciate any insights you have.

One of the big advantages of acceleration is that it gets you more time for a career, especially one of those careers that require substantial post baccalaureate time. A medical career, for example, requires undergraduate, medical school, residency, and even possibly fellowship time. That's a huge chunk of time across one's 20's spent delaying earnings, delaying education loan repayment, and because of the time commitments often delaying family. Other long paths like a PhD track, law school, or other professional schools seem similar. And some of the research with people who have gone through acceleration does show that as a group, accelerated individuals are more likely to pursue those advanced degrees.

I must admit that while the concept of the end game was not ignored in the decision to accelerate DD, it was never the focus. Each acceleration was based on providing an appropriate education and trying to prevent the negative consequences of not having challenge and a sense of achievement at school. That lack of challenge sends some really negative messages to our DD and makes her feel depressed and worthless. I think the latter comes from there being no point or value to how you are spending your day if you are not learning and not moving ahead. It was those immediate issues that drove acceleration.

However, DD 14 is now entering her last year of high school and the end game is upon us. First of all she is very happy with her school placement and the latest accleration saw her absolutely blossom, almost overnight. We had such worries about yet another year group change, the older kids getting their licenses, friendships and relationships etc etc. DD had no such concerns. She isn't worried about driving or not, she isn't concerned about relationships and she has friendships spanning every year group. The younger kids think she is a star and she has become a really positive role model for them which she is surprised and pleased by. It makes her feel as though she has a lot to offer from an informal mentorship position and it is really cool to see her grow into that. She might not have had that if she stayed with her year group as she is quiet and reserved and never sort attention of that kind or leadership even though she does have much to offer.

Academically she has taken off especially in STEM but she also takes the harder English classes even though her literal brain struggles more in this area. She doesn't like subjective works as she knows that the teachers have an expectation of sorts of what they think is the right answer and she is concerned about meeting that when she doesn't always agree. It is good for her to find ways to approach that problem and develop skills of critical analysis.

What next after school? In many states of Australia and the US there are laws about minors remaining in full time study or work until age 17 or 18. It is hard to know how that applies to someone who has completed high school as that is really what the law intends. DD has university courses in mind. She will apply and then we will see. It is complex as my husband has a job in the States for three years. If DD wants she may attend University there, or stay with relatives here or do online courses. She has so many interests that she is already planning more than one degree. Exactly as Mairaux points out, she has bought time to allow her to do that easily.

In many ways acceleration is particularly helpful to girls who can establish a career or complete many levels of education before having a family if that is what they choose. I have felt and seen the challenges that juggling both can have and any deconfliction that can reduce that stress is helpful.

Females are underrepresented in STEM for lots of reasons. Accelerating in those areas has given DD confidence that has inoculated her against some of the reasons girls drop out. The highest level math class has far more girls than boys, despite the year being 75% male because there are three accelerated girls in the class. It is a really powerful message for girls in the school generally and that is an outcome we did not anticipate.

Not everyone has a positive story of acceleration because it is a very individual process. It is often a battle for parents, it has been for us, there are unknowns that make it challenging, it can be seen negatively by other parents, teachers and students and it doesn't always work. We have battled teachers who just don't understand and have ranged from hostile to unhelpful. Other parents can be weirded out but generally they have seen the positive effect on DD and she is a nice normal kid to them so it's less of an issue.

The students haven't ever been a problem. They have been wonderful in fact and I give them all praise for being supportive and kind to DD. So much more than we could have hoped for. It is unlikely DD will be going to end of year parties with them but that isn't her scene and she is much more likely to celebrate in a low key way. That is her personality as much as anything.

At the end of the day our experience is just our experience. I simply say that it has been hard work but worth it. I have stood squarely in your shoes and I totally understand your concerns. DD was very hesitant about the last acceleration until it happened because she couldn't visualize how it would look and feel. She says how glad she is every week that she did it. So I encourage you to explore all options, continually monitor, realise that plans can be undone and can be changed if needed. Stay flexible in your thinking and your decision making. and be positive. As much as there is a lot that is hard and scary raising our kids, there is a lot of joy and lovely surprises too.