Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Creativity or Pathology?

So, I think I have posted a little bit about this before. My son has what he calls “creative shocks.” He has had them since he was about three (that I noticed). He is basically overcome with a “story” in his head - images and all the characters are talking. And you can see that my son is ‘somewhere else’ … when he was younger we would say “pause” to get him to sort of snap out of it and pay attention to us and he would essentially ‘pause’ the story/movie in his head… He paces around when he has them, he is muttering to himself often (that’s the characters having dialog), etc. Often, he dictates these stories but plenty of them go unrecorded. They have toned down a lot as he has gotten older. But, yesterday, he was saying that he wonders what “disorder “this is. He says that everyone says that creativity is a gift but, it seems to him, it is also a disorder because he feels like he cannot control these incidents and they can be problematic. He says that he doesn’t even realize the “creative shock” is happening until he is “paused” or it is over (hence he cannot stop it). And, so, without realizing it, he is up, pacing around, talking to himself with a story happening. He says he never remembers it coming about but always remembers the entire story that results from the episode. Obviously, this looks weird. He is seriously wondering if this is a disorder….or is it really just creativity. And, if it is creativity, he insists that creativity is a double edged sword and it is also a pathology to a certain extent.

When I looked into creativity and the creative process of different writers, etc. I found this to not be uncommon, i.e. that the artist feels “taken over” by their story - that it happens to them and they have little control… However, still, I am concerned considering what my son said yesterday. He is ten now and looking weird is not an option these days so he is a little frustrated. He did say he feels lucky that it doesn’t happen in school much anymore. He said it tends to happen when he is bored. It also tends to happen when he is very excited or happy about something.

My question to you all (since you yourselves have highly intelligent, quirky kids and you yourselves tend to be highly-educated), do you all think there is something seriously “wrong” here? Like a pathology? Is this ADHD? Is this experience common with ADHD kiddos and I just don’t know it and medicine stops it? Is it some sort of autism? Or is it really just creativity/imagination that is dialed a little higher than your normal creative person? More background info: as a small child, my son had many imaginary friends and imaginary adventurers, he also did “imaginary work” at “imaginary places.” As a child he did not need me or anyone else to play with him - he could and would entertain himself for hours with the stories and characters in head. He has always had a more than rich imagination.

Well, there is some data suggesting a connection between temporal lobe epilepsy and episodes of creative storms. Some of the artists of history are believed to have had such seizures.

Not saying this is the only avenue by which creative inspiration strikes, of course.

So, you think these could be epileptic seizures potentially? He did not have any seizure type things happening as a baby though...

I don't think it's possible to judge something like this on a chat forum with limited information. Have you taken your son to a neurologist? If he (and/or you) are concerned that he has a disorder, talking to a professional could be reassuring.

My ASD son is like this (although not self-aware enough to describe the "creative storm" your DS communicates).

For him, it does fall under Part B, Number 3 in the DSM-V:
B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):

1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypies, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).

2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns or verbal nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat food every day).

3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g, strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interest).

4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interests in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g., apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement).

A child needs two of these, plus several more symptoms in categories A and C to have an ASD diagnosis.

I wouldn't worry too much about temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE). Even though aeh is correct, that several brilliant artists are thought to have had this (e.g. Van Gogh, Dostoevsky), you would almost certainly see seizure types that would be far more obvious in TLE.

My vote is for quirky gifted, unless there are other concerns. He wouldn't be able to control this at school if it were autism and/or a seizure disorder. It sounds like he's learning to self-regulate the intensity as he matures.

Of course, you should consult a professional if you are truly concerned! Does your DS have high levels of anxiety? Some people have "intrusive thoughts" as a feature of anxiety disorders. These are not typically pleasant, creative experiences, though.

It sounds to me like these episodes are involuntary and therefore probably not normal. Like maybe he is hallucinating. Luckily he is aware that what he is experiencing is not "real". I would probably ask doctor about this, maybe try to get a referal to a neuropsychologist or psychiatrist. Esp. since it is now bothering him.

DD has ADHD and her EF ability is impaired enough that she does not come up with stories of any kind. But I can't say that is the case for all people with ADHD. However, it just doesn't sound like it's related. People with ADHD can be distracted by their own thoughts, or distracted by what is going on around them, but these bizarre sounding dialogues or stories don't sound typical of ADHD.

I found a balanced article in the NY Times about vision therapy.



Food for thought. There's a lot of good information in that article. Please be aware of predators and charlatans.

Well, I guess I was in the market more for reassurance (sorry) ... I am a bit reluctant to pursue it officially because I am not necessarily in the market for yet another disorder/diagnosis. My son's neurologist seems quite keen on trying adhd meds for whatever, even though he doesn't have an adhd dx, so I also thought that maybe if this is an adhd type thing, I could/should reconsider trying meds.

Also, my reluctance stems from my feeling that almost anything can be pathologized ... it's like that saying, 'when all you got is a hammer everything looks like a nail.' I just feel like if I went to his neurologist or a neuropsych or a psych with this (and expressed enough concern) they'd be all over it with various disorders - "delusions" "psychosis," etc. And I am thinking - do I really want/need to pathologize this? Is that really necessary? Or can it really just be a quirk of the gifted/creative? Such have been known to be pathologized, no? At one time, being left-handed was pathologized.

It does not seem like a hallucination to me because he fully knows he is imagining of his own making (it is his story that he working on), he remembers it (he does not lose consciousness or memory or anything like that) and can come out if it, no problem (with distraction or person getting his attention). For the same reasons, it does not *seem* to me to be a seizure (I am a only a lay person with this stuff, though)... It's the going into it, the trigger - that seems to elude him and the pacing around and talking quietly to himself. If he could zone out without "acting out," so to speak, (keep it more in his head) that would be better.

Irena I think I may have shared this with you a few years ago. DH is an artist/art professor. He doesn't have much time for his own work now but in the past (before DD was born) living with him could get quite interesting. He would get into what I referred to as "the zone". He would go into his studio for days at a time. He didn't sleep, he mindlessly ate if I brought him simple food but I don't think he even noticed he was chewing or swallowing. He emerged only occasionally to wash brushes or other tools. If I spoke to him during these times he wasn't even really talking to me he remained fixated on the piece(s) he was creating. Without question his best work came out of these periods.

DH doesn't have epilepsy, psychiatric disorders or any known pathology. He functions as "a regular guy" - he doesn't even appear eccentric enough to be taken for an art professor. I think he is likely a 2E adult who found a way to use his intellect despite unremediated LD's. (After DD's diagnoses came to light his parents told him they had been approached repeatedly by the spec Ed teacher about getting him help for his apparent dyslexia but they declined. Growing up with 2 brothers who were class valedictorians while he struggled made him feel "stupid" and so he turned to more creative means of expression.)

DD had imaginary friends when she was little and also had running dialogues. I would frequently listen to be sure I heard her doing both sides of a conversation rather than engaging in conversation with a voice in her head. I always breathed a sigh of relief when I assured myself she wasn't hearing voices. At 10 1/2 she still has a very vivid imagination but has also on occasion said to me "Mom you DO realize they're not real - right?"

I can't even guess what is going on with your DS but I do know you have worked tirelessly to address his 2E issues. He, and you, would probably feel better if you get this checked out. Did this come up during neuropsych evals? If so was there a recommendation? I'm guessing getting it checked by a neurologist would make him feel better about it.

It's not a delusion (he would not recognize it as problematic) and is unlikely to be a hallucination, IMO.

It's actually pretty difficult to get a seizure disorder dx--so that part wouldn't concern me, in terms of the neurologist.

It does sound like it's related to EF--in that he has trouble switching gears, once it's begun. Still, wouldn't worry about needing to medicate unless it is interfering with his functioning.

Can he make himself stop if he *has* to stop? In school, for instance, would he be able to respond to a teacher's asking him to sit down and be quiet?

Yes.

ETA: Usually, though, he cannot, on his own initiative, stop... Someone has to say, "Uh, DS! sit down please." We used to say "Uh, pause it, DS, you need to pause it and go back to the story later because now you need to get your shoes on..." A hand on the shoulder, a squeeze, etc. pulls him out, too... Anything like that. However, he is frustrated he can't, himself, see he is having a 'creative shock' and be like 'uh not a good time for this right now, must stop' to himself.

I wanted to add a little seizure 101. There are two main types of seizures: generalized or partial. These can be further broken down into other categories, but that explanation will do.

Your DS is not having generalized seizures if he remains conscious throughout the event. Even in absence (formerly called petit mal) seizures, there is a loss of consciousness, even if it is very brief.

Partial seizures are a little more complicated, but essentially they are either simple partial (in which all consciousness remains) or complex partial (in which consciousness is altered but still present).

So to further reduce: since he is fully conscious throughout, *if* this were a seizure type, it would be "simple partial." This type of seizure is not associated with creativity and/or unusual thought patterns. Usually involves involuntary motor activity or in rarer cases, strange sensory perceptions.

One of my kids has a seizure disorder and seizures are scary to think about, so I am hoping to provide the reassurance you were after.

Psychotic disorders are very rare in a child this age and there would be other odd things going on as well--beyond LDs or attention issues.

I hope that helps you feel better!

Thanks Pemeberley, Yes you have mentioned you DH before and I had forgotten... Thank you.. it is reassuring He is just annoyed he can't control it better. He likes the creativity, he likes the stories, etc. He does not like that he can end up looking a little weird muttering to himself without realizing it. ...

Ahh now this is why I posted here... I knew someone would say something and it'd be a lightbulb. THIS: "It does sound like it's related to EF--in that he has trouble switching gears, once it's begun" that speaks to me ... it fits... I think you are on to something with that... It is also says to me he will with maturity and determination find a way to control it better... or maybe he will try adhd meds to some degree eventually...

I would ask him if this bothers him enough to talk to a doctor about it, and let him decide. If it's not a big concern for him and doesn't interfere with his functioning, then I wouldn't worry about it. I just wanted to put my two cents in that it doesn't seem normal to me, and it doesn't sound like ADHD (since you asked...)

I will. This is a good idea. He's entering an age where he does not want to look weird so that's the biggest "issue" at the moment. He's got his "cool" sneakers. He redid his wardrobe ... He's playing hockey and any other sport he has a hope of being decent in... he's concerned with looking "normal" and at least passably "cool." Having "creative shocks" is not fitting in with that. He is fine with them in private... Not so much in school because then his friends would see him and think him weird. The good thing about this is that if he can find a way to control it, he will... he's motivated now socially. If not, he may indeed want to seek some kind of treatment. We'll see. he's definitely frustrated... Hence his speech last night that creativity is suppose to be a great gift but, really, to the creative person it can be such a burden, too.

As long as your son is very clear what is imagined, and what is real, I would file these episodes under creativity. I'm a professional writer of fiction and nonfiction and can confirm that I also do this, just on a smaller scale. I've done it my whole life and never gave it a second thought until I read your post. I can feel the energy of the story that I'm imagining enough to have to get up and walk around. I don't have the conversations out loud, but I do sometimes have the facial expressions and gestures that go with the dialogue. I don't do it in public, but every now and then, my husband catches me and says, "Everything ok?" LOL. I honestly thought everyone did this in some form. But now that you mention it as a "writer thing," that makes sense. To be effective, writers have to imagine a scene so completely that they can transport readers there. This is just one path to doing that.

Seems like what is really important is your son being able to turn it on and off as he desires, which would relate to impulse control and executive functioning. I hope he can keep it in some form as he matures. It is a powerful tool that can be applied not just to storytelling, but to other careers as well.

I posted this another time, somewhere. It gives a good explanation of different executive functions:

http://files.campus.edublogs.org/bl.../List-of-Executive-Functions-169lmt8.pdf

My lay analysis would be it sounds like it's an issue with "Shifting." I don't think that's uncommon, or particularly alarming. Like Pemberly explained--I think a lot of creative people go into a zone sometimes. Csikszentmihalyi would call it FLOW.

It might help to identify this for your DS and see if he can think of some strategies to help--there may be a bit of Metacognition at play, too. If he can begin to identify what triggers the "creative shocks" he might have more success stopping them from progressing when they are inconvenient. It could just be something simple like "close your eyes and shake your head" or "get a drink of water," etc. Or say to himself "time and place" or something coping related like that.

I relate to him (minus the creative piece), being the world's worst multi-tasker. It's uncomfortable to get lost in thought when you're not supposed to be.

Thank you. Yes, impulse control speaks to me as well... Eventually, it seems to me kids develop the ability to make quiet their inner dialog and to control the impulse to say what pops in their head (is this a chemical? a physical maturation?) ... This does seem related to that. He's having trouble controlling the impulse to imagine and keeping what should be inner dialog in his head. As well as the EF issue of being able to shift. Obviously if he were not so imaginative it wouldn't be as big of a problem... which is where the creativity is contributing to the problem as well.

Well, at least I am reassured at this point he is not psychotic and probably not having seizures

This is great, thank you. I will chat with him about all of this... I do think he'll feel better if he has a plan for getting a handle on it.

Anecdotally, last night, DS9 told me that when he's not actively doing something like reading or writing, such as when he's just playing a board game with the family, he's always imagining things. Like he pictures us as Transformers (he watches the 80s cartoons) going into battle and he plays out the whole scene and actions in his head. He said it's like a little video clip he turns on and off. I think one of my favorite things about watching my kids at this age is remembering how vivid my imagination was when I was younger. Seriously dynamic. I wish I'd kept journals that young. I don't go into the zone as much any more, but I have been able to zone out as well as focus seriously intensely so that I'd lose track of all time in a project.

I don't have any expertise in this area, but I did find a forum of people discussing similar experiences here: http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Neurol...eme-or-instense-daydreaming-/show/531449
Explanations suggested in that thread range from "maladaptive daydreaming", to "intense imagination/imagery with movement", which appears to be a type of complex motor stereotypy (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/dmcn.12518/abstract). My only other thought would be that it might be the type of things that's only a problem if it's a problem, if you know what I mean. So if he's experiencing distress and feelings of it being a disorder, it might be worth looking into further to perhaps see if you can improve his control over it.

I can remember so many classes at high school being so under stimulating that I was the ultimate maladaptive daydreamer LOL

Billy Liar had nothing on me!

The forum napanangka suggests sounds so much like what your son experiences. Quite fascinating. It might really help him to know that others experience the same thing. My DD is experiencing something neurologically/psychologically unusual and she really wanted to know that others "have this" too (they do). For a tween, this is especially important, I think.

Different but related: this morning, my DS could not be moved to dress and prepare for school because he was entirely absorbed in packing up a new board game he and his sister designed last night that is a Risk-inspired Vietnam War strategy game. He took it to school with a bunch of army men. It took him twice as long to get dressed as usual (and usual is already ridiculously long) and nothing I did moved him out of his head space.

He's a super creative and also perseverative kid. He doesn't pace and mutter but he does talk to himself as he engineers his activities and ability to SHIFT appears to be really impaired.

I'm choosing to look at this as a little bit of both in terms of creative v. pathology. For my DS it is EF. There are up sides to the hyper focus, also, but it does interfere with functioning.

Hi all. Thanks so much for all of your input and thoughts. I have actually looked at maladaptive daydreaming before. I actually have concluded before that he has complex motor stereotypy. I think I have chatted about it here... I guess his indicating for the very first time that he is really wanting to control this and is frustrated or concerned that he can't got me more worried. Plus, a part hoped/assumed he'd grow out of it.

Anyway, I talked with him more tonight. It's a combination of things going on. He knows he's a bit weird and he wants to fit in, etc. Worried he'll commit social suicide with the next creative shock. It's typical tween/middle school angst combined with the additional stresses of having dyspraxia and probably complex motor stereotypy. I told him we could talk with his neurologist and we could try medicine. I can't say how much that will help but if he wants to talk and if he wants try a medicine we could. I told him about the group of people on the internet talking about and that he is not alone, which he found comforting.

Then, once he went to sleep I found this site: http://motorstereotypiesandyou.org/ So I am going to have him watch this tomorrow. Seems like john Hopkins is really the place for this thing!

Anyway, thanks. This kid... I just wish he did not have so many "exceptionalities"!!!

Irena - I'm pretty sure my DS10 has something like motor stereotypy- but I'm not sure either since the onset was late and he has a tic disorder so theoretically it *could* be tics… .but his description of enjoying the daydreams fit more with MSD than with tics.

I think John Hopkins is a good place to start.

DS8 does this. He wants to be an author and his creative outlets at this time include writing short stories (he writes a little series that he takes to school and shares with the kids there - he has quite the fan club), crafting his own action figures (he makes up powers/back stories and gives them to his friends), and drawing little comic books. He says it is fun and feels sorry for people who can't/won't do this. "When I "think" it is like I am in the world I am imagining. It is way better than a movie because it is all around me. If my mind was black and closed, I'd be sad. I feel sorry for those people."

He calls it "thinking" and not "creative shocks" but it sounds very similar.

He knows it looks weird so he tries not to do it in public. If he really wants to and it isn't otherwise disruptive, he's just does it and explains what he's doing.

These stories are encouraging I was chatting with my younger son about older's son creative shocks (younger son is very 'normal' and does not have any such thing) while older son was not around. Younger son said something cute about it. He said the creative shocks looks "so fun" he wishes he would get them...

This definitely sounds very similar! My DS used to make action figures, too.. We had a plastic heating thing for him crafting them.

I think that this is part of him, especially if it is Motor Stereotypy, and he probably won't outgrow it, so helping him accept it is probably your best bet. John Hopkins is a great start.

There appears to be some anecdotal success with use of fluvoxamine in controlling the dreaming with maladaptive daydreaming (it does not stop it, just gives a person more control over it). I can't tell if it's really made a difference in our case, so it probably hasn't (DS takes it for anxiety).

Irena, how are things going with the "creative shocks"? Just curious if your son had any success getting more control over them.