Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "mathematicians today write out their answers...."

Our story: DS8 is partially homeschooled. He does all academics at home, all specials at school. I had a meeting at his school recently just to clear some issues up. This is our 4th year at this school. We've had completely wacky experiences, yet we do our specials there because DS really likes it and there is some value in it.

Anyway, at our most recent meeting, the principal was now trying to "sell" their new math teacher to me. They have never had a real math teacher before. My son was accelerated 3 years in math last year, but this year he does it all at home. The principal wants him to come back and do math there and that's not happening. They teach Everyday Math there. 'Nuff said. As part of the math teacher's pitch , he stated that the curriculum is great because it reinforces what is happening today in mathematicians' workplaces. He stated that mathematicians today "write out their answers" a la the style of Everyday Math. My son does what was formerly known as EPGY. This new teacher was telling me that EM was superior to EPGY because EM was more relevant. So, math people (or STEM people who use a lot of math at work), is this true? I assumed that he was speaking nonsense, but he says that he was working for 10 years as a mathematician and that the way math is done in the workplace is being "revolutionized" and includes far more writing now. Just curious what math people have to say about this.

I have a degree in math and I've worked my entire career in a math-heavy STEM field. I have never seen anything remotely akin to Everyday Math wordy explanations used in the working world. E.V.E.R.

So you know how I feel about that

FWIW, I have seen this need to explain math problems in words start to spread into higher level secondary school math - more so with my middle dd who is now in middle school - her school has changed math curriculums and the new books are all about explain explain explain 3 different ways and use detailed sentences etc.

JMO, but it all seems to be built around a preconceived notion that the extra words, extra explaining are necessary to help "non-mathy" folks understand math. That's all well and good - but when you're a working mathematician or scientist, your audience is going to be one of two crowds (usually) - either other scientists in your field, or people who have $ to invest but don't understand the math/science. The people who are your peers in math/science will understand your math and don't need it explained in full-length adventure novel format. The people who have the $ to invest or make decisions with don't *care* about the math, they just want to know that they trust your ability to be the math expert.

That's a bit of an over-simplification, but really, no, EM does not really exist in the working world. YET. Who knows what will happen when all the kids who grew up with EM enter the work force?

And if it seems like I'm grouchy about this, it might have something to do with my dd's math homework tonight. I won't mention what she had to explain in words. But yep, that's what she's doing. Explaining percentages in words. She's my kid who likes to write, and even she thinks it's just ridiculous.

polarbear

Well this is true in a way if you are a RESEARCH Mathematician say a university math professor who does new research you need to be able to explain your work in a written paper. This has been true for years. Writing up math is used in the field so that others in the field can understand and critique your work. But research mathematicians are only a tiny fraction of people in the world who use who use math. And I doubt very many of them learned math in the way you describe. Most mathematicians that I know (and I do know a few) work out the math, and only write out the paper when they know they have a new result they want to share with the world. And for most of those that USE math on a regular basis like scientists and engineers this is quite ridiculous. I'm still trying to imagine doing even elementary H.S. chemistry with this technique.

I can believe that for some people this may be an easier way to understand the concepts but for those who are inherently good at math concepts this is simply torture. In my mind 4 + 5 = 10 is a lot easier to understand than 'four plus five equals ten'. I agree with you that this teacher is full of hot air. I think I would be more willing to believe that Standford/EGPY has a fairly good idea of how to teach and understand math. My guess is this teacher has been sold a bill of goods and has swallowed it whole.

I published a paper that used statistical analysis earlier this year, including a series of calculations that were written up as what I'll call a big honking equation using sigma notation. I included the equation in the Materials & Methods section, with the only explanation being to state what each variable stood for. This approach is SOP, as far as I can tell.

I agree with the idea that a student should be able to explain how a method works (e.g. "Tell me Johnny, why can't we divide by zero?"). That said, one of my kids was a victim of EM for two years, and its approach is a long way from what I just described. It isn't what I'd call mathematically correct (but you know that already!).

In Engineering and physics worlds, equations is a language to explain the real world, more simple and direct, oh and also graph.

"changed math curriculums and the new books are all about explain explain explain 3 different ways and use detailed sentences etc." <- this sounds horrible to me....

I have an intense dislike of EM. My eldest was spared as the school started on EM with the class below her. Middle kid didn't think it was so bad, but she just "gets" math. Little one had it last year, but might only have one more year if she scores well on her placement tests.

I agree that no one does simple problems by writing them out. But as kids get a bit more advanced, they are expected to write out answers. How about this problem:

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Wiki/index.php/2014_AIME_II_Problems/Problem_9

While you could just write down the math for the problem without explanation, it would not be easy for someone else to follow your thinking. As a civil engineer, I don't just write down the math, but include a bit of explanation as it would be tough to sort through all kinds of calculations for a very large site without some written explanation.

While I think I know what the teacher means, most kids will never need to write out explanations like that. Or they won't need to do that for many years, and can be taught when they are older.

In NYC they use EM up to grade 5, not in all schools but many.
But in middle school they have to switch because EM methods don't scale up.
I hate EM. DD does CTY math and I never let her do the EM method.

Math is its own language. No need to translate it.

Another EM detest-er here. My oldest had it for three years in K - 2 grade. She was amazing in math in preschool. She could add, subtract, multiply, and divide prior to starting K.

By the end of 2nd grade, she wasn't adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing. She was completely lost and confused. I changed schools, got a tutor, and after three more years she loved math again. (She loved math; it was her favorite thing prior to K. But after K, she had a burning hatred for math. She also thought she was slow in math because she was so lost in it.)

Today, she is a freshman in Pre-Calc who thinks the class is easy. She loves math again. It was always her forte, but EM nearly destroyed her passion. I'm glad she found her way back, but it did take some money and time with tutoring in late elementary to undue all the crap of EM.

Not in a STEM field but can totally empathize. DD8 scores high on math (99% on MAP) yet for this first quarter she has a C- in math. Why? She is terrible at writing. The test required so much writing and of course it's difficult for her to get one hundred seventy-eight million three hundred forty-three thousand seven hundred eleven on her test let alone other sentences to explain it all! It just seems bizarre.