Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Math Disability anyone?

There is a lot of talk on these boards about dyslexia and dysgraphia but does anyone else have a diagnosis of a math disability, also known as Dyscalculia?

My DD9 received the label as part of her laundry list of diagnoses last year. She has no working memory to speak of, which I'm sure is part of the problem. She cannot remember math facts to save her life. It took until the end of 1st grade for her to even be able to count to 20 - she couldn't pronounce the word "thirteen" so the number just didn't exist. At 9 she still does all addition on her fingers. I think she may be able to do 1+1 and 2+2 in her head but that's it.

As with everything involving DD she seems to be upside down and backwards. She gets the concepts super quick but can't apply them. Numbers don't seem to have any intrinsic meaning to her. I mean she understands the idea of having 18 of something but the concept of January 18th as a specific date seems to mean nothing to her. No problem with the concepts of greater than/ less than. As with her high level comprehension/ low level decoding and virtually nonexistent encoding she doesn't seem to follow the predictable pattern of these LDs.

I have been looking for fun apps that may help her reinforce math facts. If it is in the form of a game I think she may learn them without realizing it. Otherwise she just gets frustrated or guesses. Her slow processing speed and lack of working memory means she freaks out at any app that has a timed component.

Any BTDT advice or am I all alone on this one?

No BTDT as a parent, but in my university STEM department, we're about to graduate an undergrad with discalculia, and we've admitted her as a PhD student to do a computational/modeling project. As you observe in your DD, this student grasps the big picture quickly, which is a huge advantage in the field. She's learned to solve problems without numbers, and then she relies on calculators, spreadsheets, or Matlab for the computation.

No game apps, but dice games are great for teaching that level of math facts. If Yahtzee is too obviously math, then any game that involves rolling two dice and using the total will reinforce the addition.

We do have a math facts app that's straight facts that we like because you can control the set you work on to a very small number, and it graphs the results. "Math Drills"

Pemberley, no direct experience here but two tiny thoughts for you - first, my youngest dd has an issue with associative memory (not the same as working memory - that's a-ok for her)... but anyway one of the accommodations suggested for her in math is the use of a calculator. Use of a calculator to check work was also an accommodation for my dysgraphic ds when he was younger (before all the kids were using calculators anyway in math). Also, fwiw, none of my kids really "mastered" their math facts until they were around 10 (or older) (and without any type of math challenge). I read (and believe) that for some kids, it helps to get past a certain developmental stage before things like math facts really click and become automatic. I realize that's advice for typical kids, but fwiw, I've found with my dysgraphic ds that some of the automaticity issues he struggled with tremendously in elementary school resolved (or became much better) once he went through puberty. It didn't mean he's no longer dysgraphic, just that there were gains made with that stage of maturing. So - what may be a huge struggle now may become easier with time. In the meantime, using a calculator and extended time should be a reasonable accommodation.

My older dd does not have dyscalculia, but fwiw, she has extremes in how she is able to grasp different types of math concepts - some are ridiculously easy, others are like running head on into a brick wall and require tons of repetition (as well as psychotherapy to just get her calmed down enough to think through the concept - kidding, but only by a small margin!). Spiral-curriculums are like pure torture for her because they give enough time on a subject for her to master it. OTOH, focusing on topics that come easier for her and doing extra repetition on them even though she doesn't need it helps her with confidence.

Sorry, that's probably not much help! I hope you're able to find useful info and apps for your dd!

polarbear

One more thought -I have a friend whose child has some significant cognitive disabilities, focused most intently in the area of arithmetic. She's made significant progress by mapping numbers to colors, assigning each number a color (1 red, 2 blue, 3 yellow, etc), such that 1+2=3 would then be written in each color, so that the child is learning to associate red + blue is yellow, which she can then map back to 3. Make sense?

The disabilities there are different, so I've no idea if it would work for your dd.

I have heard of a lot of people having success with hands on approaches to math for children with dyscalculia - math manipulatives like cuisenaire rods, pattern blocks etc.
I have no BTDT experiences, but my son attends a Japanese Soroban Abacus Math class and I have met 2 families there who had kids with dyscalculia and difficulty with counting at age 8 and 9 and they said that learning the Soroban method as well as the anzan mental method of mental math helped them overcome their dyscalculia. BTW/ there are a lot of apps that simulate the soroban abacus.

Thanks. It's nice to know that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel. Wouldn't it be great if she could outgrow all these issues and be able to participate in a PhD program one day? Right now it's just about impossible to imagine.

They use a lot of visuals and manipulatives in school but with fine motor and visual processing issues they aren't always successful either. They tried Touch Math for a while but no one seems to really like it much. Yes, a calculator and extra time are essential. Unfortunately we have had people who have no clue but are sure that they are experts make comments to her about using the calculator so now she seems to feel like she is doing something wrong. Not good for a kid who is a real rule follower and who doesn't want to ever do anything wrong or get in trouble.

I will have to check out Soroban. The color idea is interesting but not sure it would work with DD. Might be another layer of stuff to process through her working memory.

Songs seem to be very effective with her. After more than a year of being totally stuck unable to recognize coins or remember their values it all unlocked when she heard a song about them. Now she plays a coin app for fun. Does anyone know a good math facts song? I would think they may have been common in the old days when early school years were more fun, more play based.

My DS's loves school house rock for multiplication. For number sense you could try they might be giants - here come the 123s. The alphabet and science albums are pretty good too

DeHe

DD11's previous math tutor finally had success helping her to learn multiplications by inventing silly (honestly, very ridiculous) songs. It looked to me like the two of them made them up as they went. She is In grade six this year and is now getting anxious about knowing HOW to attack a problem the right way rather than freaking out at the idea of doing math at all. She does a decent job with mental math facts and that is about 6000 times farther than I ever thought she would be if you had asked me three years ago!

DD has ADHD (her working memory is 30%-ile), dyslexia and dysgraphia. There was always a suspect of dyscalcula but no formal diagnosis. Her previous tutor also worked with a child with dyscalcula and noted that our DD had similar struggles. We weren't able to find an app that worked. DD just hated math in all forms. What worked? Using her strengths! Looking it back it makes so much sense. She is verbally gifted and learned best when we just started to talk and sing about it. Now, we just have to invent a musical math curriculum....

Thought I should post an update and a possible road forward on the math front...

At our IEP meeting the other day the literacy specialist provided some data - complete with graphs and charts - that did more to explain how 2E presents in the real world than I ever could have hoped for. DD9 (third grade) scored exactly 50th percentile on the regular testing the school does for everyone going into their annual reviews. (She is in out of district placement at a Spec Ed school so everyone has an IEP and therefore an annual review...) The literacy specialist went the extra mile and did 2 additional tests - one showed her 8th grade level reading comprehension and one showed her 20th percentile decoding abilities. Classic 2E masking! Clear as day for anyone in the room who didn't before comprehend the gifts and disabilities combining to show a perfectly average 50th percentile kid.

Ok so when we moved on to math a similar pattern emerged. How could she score SO much higher on geometry than basic, simple math facts? Makes no sense right? This gave me the chance to do my song and dance about high level comprehension and her ability to understand higher level concepts even while not being able to do the most basic first grade level math stuff. Everyone seemed to get it. Then I went the next step and asked if everyone was in agreement that our goal was to get DD to the point where she could function in the real world? Does everyone agree that needs to be our focus? That we can throw out any preconceived notions about typical math curriculums and protocols and the usual path? Everyone nodded in agreement. (Score one big time for mom )

I mentioned that I had seen a Japanese method of doing multiplication that involved criss crossed lines where you add the intersecting points. Could something like that work? The teacher knew what I meant and added that she had a special "finger trick" for multiplying by 9. Was it ok to share that with DD? Well heck yeah it was ok. We talked about using songs for learning basic math facts. All sorts of out of the box, unconventional tricks and shortcuts that could be life changing for DD.

The teacher sent me a link to the following Youtube video showing the crisscrossed lines thing and there are some links there to other finger shortcuts for doing math problems. Thought I would share in case they could be helpful to someone else.



Does anyone have any other ideas like these? If so I would love to see them!

Just wanted to share my experience of having (undiagnosed) dyscalculia. In my day, there was no testing or ieps-- that I was aware of anyway. My parents were just happy I wasn't retarded as I went too long without oxygen at birth and shouldn't have survived. So I always attributed my inability to store numbers as related to that. Maybe it was, maybe not. Anyway, all these years later after reading this forum, I stumbled on what sounded like me. Here I was taking differential equations and I still added every thing on my fingers (there were no calculators allowed). I only knew some times tables and until I got to college I thought I'd never pass a math class. But with hard work I survived and even thrived. Dates still don't mean much to me, I can't reliably tell you my own phone number, often forget what year we are in, by good grace I got a SSN that is in a pattern form, so I remember that. I transfered to a great school, graduated with a STEM degree, loved math classes, even took two more higher than were required for my degree, all without any help or special accommodations. I worked hard when it came to numbers, and the more I used them, the more they got stored somewhere in my brain--- but never permenantly. After I graduated and stopped doing math on a daily basis, they slowly died off again.
So things that have helped me-- rely on my strengths which were verbal. Daily practice helped quasi-retain things. Any long break, such as summers would put me back too far. I, and others from what I have read, have amazing memory for song and rhythm and rhymes. I can recite hundred of poems from decades ago still. Anything put into rhyme sticks forever. Use that benefit in everything!
And lastly, just realized that in life everyone has both strengths and weaknesses, and when you get to college, you can do anything with enough love, passion, and hard work if you figure out how to use your strengths to your advantage. Seeing the big picture is an asset. Use that. It maybe harder to get through the elementary years where those skills are the focus, but once through that then your abilities can be used to shape yourself in any creative way you want. Don't see yourself as learning disabled--I never did because I had no idea such things existed. And because of that I kept on going when life might have convinced me to stop.
Please forgive all my typos and poorly made sentences as I'm on a phone and am a terrible phone typer!