Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy what's the least public education should do?

I've been pondering what the very least the public education system should do for our kids. The best thing, of course, would be if they would individualize education for every child, but that's eons from happening.

IMO, the very least that should be mandated is IDENTIFICATION.

Parents at least deserve that information so they can help their kids, imo.

I think the very least would be allowing students to enter school when ready. Our state has a very strict no early entry guideline and no grade skipping for Kindergarten and first grade. Also, a strict deadline of Sept. 1 as the cutoff birthdate for entering school that calendar year.
I just can't imagine denying a child a chance to learn just because of when their birthdate fell.

I've been thinking about this same question, as I plan to go into a conference. What do they feel their responsibility is with regards to my 6 year old son? The sad reality is that with cuts in educational funding coupled with national/state standards, it may be all they can do to teach to the bottom and middle of the class to get them up to required levels. How much time and energy are they able and willing to give kids in the upper part of the curve? It is a fundamental issue - will the teacher/counselor feel they have a responsibility to see that my son is being challenged? Willa Gayle, I think you may be right that identification may be the least they can do - but maybe sometimes all they can do also.

The thing I don't understand is - how does subject acceleration cost the school money? I guess if there were too many kids in a class and the need for more teachers, but other than that - as long as there is a seat why can't a child do it.
It would also take the burden off of teachers who could focus their attention on the students who actually do need help in the math area the teacher is getting.
I honestly don't understand why TEACHERS don't advocate for subject accleration in the least. I am an adjunct college professor and it is much easier to teach a class with students at similar education/intelligence levels then when I have students all over the map.
It is the teacher push back I really don't understand.

I would agree, Willa. Identification is the very least that we as parents should expect. I think the problem with that is that once a child is identified, as anything, then the school system would have to have a plan in place for providing services.

I once sat in on a meeting between educational people and healthcare providers that was called because the new child psychiatrist at our hospital was diagnosing "so many kids" with autism. The school administration stated at the meeting that they were just not prepared to deal with all these kids with autism. The school superintendent himself said "You see, doctor, every time you diagnose a child with autism WE have to provide services." The doctor looked at the superintendent and asked "What do you want me to do? Stop properly diagnosing these children who have never received the appropriate services just because you haven't yet figured out how to serve them? You better figure it out because these kids aren't going away." Many in the room were shocked and it shut the school people up for sure!

And, amazingly, the local school district launched an initiative to develop an "autism team" to address all the kids that were being identified. Now, I know that it was driven by special ed laws, but wouldn't it be great if we could identify enough numbers of gifted kids that needed more challenge, so the school just couldn't ignore them anymore? They say there is power in numbers - maybe that's what we need.

I believe one reason some teachers don�t want to subject accelerate or grade accelerate is if they do, it will set a precedence of accommodation. They want the kids to comply with the structure of their classroom and make their system run smoothly.

I agree that there is power in numbers. However, most kids that we are acquainted with in our town are bright or some level of gifted. (I am in a minority of the parents here because I only have a bachelor�s degree). Most parents are perfectly happy as long as their children are making A�s and scoring high on the state tests. It seems that high grades are valued more than overcoming a challenge. Perfectionism is rampant!

What are the opinions of most gifted parents you know?

Most gifted parents I know believe the hype of "socialization" or some how feel guilty because their child is gifted. They don't realize that just as the name implies, it is a gift (and I believe a gift from God). No one choose it, no one stole. Just like no one choose to have a learning disability.
I think there is also a lot of confusion around "gifted" and "smart". Many parents would prefer a "smart" child over a "gifted" child in my area

I agree with you stbmom that giftedness is from God and we have a responsibility to make good use of it. My kids know they are expected to develop their talents to their highest ability and to use their knowledge, skills and financial rewards in an ethical manner.

You are also correct to point out the difference between smart and gifted. I do know other gifted kids, however, most are probably smart. It�s easier to see that difference when they are toddlers and preschoolers though!

Debbie,
That is an amazing story! It�s probably repeated around the country every day.

I believe the reason my daughter was found to have no deficit by the school district psychologist and school district speech therapist is because they are either unethical or incompetent. Actually, I believe it is a combination of the two. They are �Masters of the Obvious� coupled with a prejudice against gifted children with learning differences. Philosophically, their sympathy lies with children who are behind and politically, they know there are limited resources and choose to apply them only where they cannot deny a learning disability (because it is evident to everyone).

Every professional (all with higher credentials) she had seen outside of the school district, believes there is defiantly a receptive language and phonological perception issue (whether compared to her IQ or not).

The only accommodation that we wanted was a grade skip in combination with relocation to a school with walls. No extra costs involved! 51/2 years after accomplishing these goals with a private school, I can say without hesitation, we were right about her learning difference (which has been further confirmed) and we were right that she needed a grade advance and THEY WERE WRONG!

I applaud this doctor in his response to the school administration. I don�t believe that clinical or medical evaluators should let the politics of limited resources influence their assessment. It is simply not their concern. If they do consider those issues, they may be in favor with the district superintendant, but their own professional credibility is lost.

I know that I am going to make a stirr here, but please look at the intelligence level of our teachers - again, I am trying not to offend anyone here. Maybe if they were paid more, things would change (over a few decades of course ;-)

Ania,

I understand what you are saying. During our assessment Dr. Ruf mentioned a little about the "average" intelligence of teachers and that there can be hostility (open or subtle) towards gifted children from teachers. Especially those that don't understand it isn't a choice, it just is who they are and how they were born.

I don't think statistics support that idea. Intelligence scores should be normally distributed among the "educator" population. Given that they have achieved a "higher" level of education, we'd expect them to be at least slightly above the mean...the curve would be a bit skewed.

Also, by saying they are of "lower ability" we are excusing off their deliberate inadequacy and laziness.

No. I think they are perfectly capable of understanding, but the "education culture" is not about helping the individual child learn and be at his highest potential. Rather it is about achieving the minimum necessary to continue getting that pay check and those summer holidays!!

blech...

breathing....breathing....deep deep breath!!!:^)

I think that this is a terrific question. I have very strong ideas about this.

1) Any child who wants to "go up a level" for single subject acceleration should be allowed to...this costs the school nothing within the building, but can get expensive if the child needs to go off-campus. I don't have a firm stand on who should pay for transport, but would love to see groups of parents organize to handle it with insurance provided by the district.

2) Any parent who wants a grade skip or early enterance, and has the Iowa Acceleration Scale scores to back it up, should get one, no questions asked.

These are simple goals, clear and easy to accomplish. I think that if the child lead, the schools will follow.

If I remember correctly from her book, �Losing Our Minds�, Dr. Ruf refers to the average teacher IQ as around 115-120. She mentioned that many of their own smart children just miss the cut-off for gifted programs. Since their kids are A students, and some gifted children are not, they might think that the whole �gifted� thing is a sham. Does that sound about right?

Of course, there are some teachers who well exceed that average!

I also agree with your point Willa. I took a few teaching courses in college. I was really turned off by the amount of time spent discussing how the strengthen the teachers union!

ldparents, take heed of Trinity's post above! You are in a position to make a difference as school board chair!

The teacher's union is one reason I don't teach even though I have a master's in education (early childhood special).

Mite's third grade "gifted cluster" class has nearly all "bright" kids who are "good" students. Every paper on the wall is crisp, neat and precise (until you get to Mite's which is sloppy, illegible and smudged). The kids are neat and clean. The moms are hovering about "helping out". The teacher says "all my students are gifted". I think if she could she'd say, "except Mite". chuckle. When she said that, btw, I snarked back, "Ok! I'll call Kare11! There must be something in the water out here!" (in humor...everyone chuckled even her)

The kids are placed in the cluster because they "get" school and their parents "get" school, not because they have abilities and intensities they cannot control. Not one has been "identified" by any specific form evaluation EXCEPT for Mite.

I guess I'd say another "least public ed should do" is educate teachers to understand measurements, evaluations and giftedness and learning disability.

So far we have....

1) identify
2) accelerate class or grade
3) educate educators

What else?

Hi all, I've been viewing these forums for some time now.
Thankyou, you have inspired me to speak up about my daughter. Instead of just going to see teachers about possible different/extra schoolwork/homework for the past 5 YEARS, with a pleasent smile.....I've now plucked up the courage to ask for her to skip a class(grade). This time its serious!!!
I have an appointment with headteacher next week, (possibly the most unapproachable woman on the planet), scary!!
I've always suspected she is gifted (ok I know for a fact she is) but have not had any sort of testing, yet.
Thankyou all again, couldn't have done it without you.

Wish me luck.....

Post deleted by Mark Dlugosz

Hi Lisa from England,
Good for you....I don't think IQ tests or achievment tests impress schools at all, kids who can do the work impress schools.

What's your local situation? Are you currently in England? Has you school done grade skips before?
Have you read "A nation Decieved?" ((it's free))
What do you have if the teacher says, "Really, she seems so grade-appropriate to me?"

Spill those beans, dear! We care and want to know all about it - codenames of course - Wishing you luck! You go girl!

Trinity

Welcome, Lisa. I wish you luck! And as Trinity said, please tell us more about your situation and your daughter. Then maybe we can offer some specific suggestions for your meeting.

GG

Good Luck Lisa!

Diana

I believe that a major problem to gifted children is political correctness. Being smart and gifted is synonomous in many eyes. People who are smart and gifted are taught not to flaunt it or draw attention to it because little Johnny will feel bad if he can't keep up (conform or you're a show-off). Schools are by law required to support kids with disabilities because they are the "victims" and we as a government have to help them. Those smart and gifted kids have it easy and should just be thankful that they're smart and gifted. Why should they be given something extra when they already have life so easy? I DON'T agree with this line of BS but we all have to live with it and our kids are suffering because of it.

delbows mentioned that I should take note because my husband's the chair of our local school committee. HA - The teachers' union has a total stranglehold on the town, the superintendant job is a revolving door (3 within the last 2 years), the school board viciously fights within itself (my husband is changing that though- baby steps), the local paper only prints half-truths that only hurt the schools, the high school is losing their accredidation this year, and the town pays virtually no taxes for our 100 year old schools (a whole 7% - it was 0% before we got the new middle school a few years ago - the only school under 50 years old)

Two weeks ago we gave up on the school system. The oldest is 6 and has the most wonderful teacher but she can't teach our son to his potential! We decided to homeschool. The kid is a sponge. He'll pick up information as quickly as you throw it at him. At 3 he literally ran through an aquarium. He drove my grandmother nuts. When my husband asked how the exhibits were my grandmother piped up, "How would he know, he ran through the whole damn thing." Then my son started explaining each and every display from beginning to end. My grandmother's jaw was on the floor. At school they make him crawl so "No Child is Left Behind".

Anybody who wants to plan a peaceful revolt against this ridiculous and utterly failed innitiative can count me in; until then I guess I have to homeschool because the public school systems are hopeless in their current state.

Many of these problems related to teaching every child to their highest potential would be minimized without a need for additional funding if we reverted back to �ability grouping� and grade advancing. Of course that (ability grouping) is politically incorrect as you pointed out.

I didn�t mean to imply that it was your responsibility to change to world. I apologize for coming on that strong. Here the school board, administrators, parents� groups and teachers� union are too unified. Total lack of checks and balances!

Considering that your oldest is 6, have you considered the possibility of relocation?

I was just venting, I'm a little on edge lately, trying to defend the decision to homeschool to my parents and in-laws, friends, school personnel, his teacher, etc...

I didn't think you meant for me to change the world -- Sorry. The frustration was meant to be directed towards the failed school struction, definitely not you.

We could relocate but are things any better in other areas that aren't ultra-rich? We've looked around at quite of few schools, both public and private and haven't found any that are that much better academically. If anyone is familiar with a good school in the mid to western Massachusetts, South- mid to Western New Hampshire area I would be extremely grateful if you'd share them.

Hi, thanks trinity, galaxy girl and delbows, your words are encouraging.
I have heard of a girl that grade skipped a few years ago but really it's quite unheard of where I live, (North-East of England)even when I was at school.
My daughter has always been way ahead of her peers and it can get frustrating for her. I've been wanting to ask for this for years but finally plucked up the courage (why do I feel so scared?...)
My daughter taught herself to read at 2yrs, at 3yrs she loved atlasas, encyclopedias, she retaines all this information and is a fountain of knowledge. Her maths is fantastic too. She's now 8yrs(nearly 9).
With a grade skip she will then have only 1 full school year and a bit until comprehensive school (11-18yrs). The sooner she gets there the better. She knows what she wants to do with her life, she feels that she has outgrown her current school and will be able to 'breathe' when she gets to comprehensive.
She's not especially mature for her age and I worry that could be the schools argument against us, but she's more than capable academically.

So tomorrow I have a meeting with her headmistress, do I get on my knees and beg?!

Keeping your thoughts of encouragement in my head.

Will tell you how it all goes......

I've had bad luck with this. I tried to keep us all on the same team, to point out how what I wanted was in keeping with the district's mission statement...Keep reasuring that you will take responsibility for her "social life" -

and be prepared that a single grade may not be enough to make a difference. Sometimes gifted kids get caught in the "more homework, but not more mind work" problem, so they have less time to pursue what really satisfies them.

Is this a government paid or out of pocket school?

Do you have any alternatives?

Can she test into the comprehensive schools?

Best Wishes,
Trin

LDParents, I've been in this place, and it's not fun. :-(

Though it's hard to do, I've had to stop caring what "everyone else" says and thinks because no amount of explaining/defending is going to help them understand. I've had to make peace with the fact that others--be they family, friends, neighbors, school personnel--simply are not going to "get it," so I can't look to them for validation and support.

And that's okay. Why? Because they aren't raising my children--I am. They haven't done hundreds of hours of reading/research on raising gifted children--I have. They don't know what's involved. I do.

What I'm saying is I've learned to trust my own intuition when it comes to my own children, and so far time has shown that I'm usually right (LOL, not about all things, mind you, just about the "big decisions" regarding my kids' education).

Take DS8's preschool experience at age 4. He liked the first day, increasingly hated it after that ("Mommy, all they talk about is shapes and I already know all my shapes."). Said he liked the teacher and other kids, but cried/protested more fervently each time, not wanting to go. Everyone I asked--friends, neighbors, teachers--said "make him go, because if you let him drop out now, he won't want to go to K next year." (So many people said that!) Or: "he's manipulating you" and "he won't develop good social skills without preschool." Well, I decided to follow my heart. Yes, my son is a preschool dropout. (Gasp!)

Forgive me here for the nostalgia, but I will always remember his last morning of preschool--him crying, begging me not to leave him there, and me with everyone's advice whirling in my head. Then my heart said: he's 4 and he wants to be home; how can that be bad? So I took him back home. And I will always remember this one moment, after we left the preschool building... as I buckled him into his car seat, he put his hand on my arm, gave me this incredibly intense, tender look, and said, "Thank you so much, Mommy. Thank you for not making me go to preschool. Thank you for listening to what I wanted. You are the best mommy in the whole world."

I realized in that moment that it was infinitely more valuable for him to know that his mother listened to him and respected his need/desire for security (staying home) than anything he would have learned in that year of preschool. He loved staying home that year--and next year, when K started, he was so sick of his little sister that he couldn't wait to leave home and go to school! (So much for those naysayers who said he wouldn't want to go). I look back on that experience and was so glad I followed my heart and intuition, no matter what everyone else said.

Same with the decision to find a way to get DD6 early entry to K at age 4 (got around the age cutoff by finding a private religious school that accepted her for K). It took over a year of my time, effort, research, persuading, hoping, praying just to find a place that would take her... and then a year's worth of money spent on tuition that we could barely afford. It was tough. But it was what she needed, and I'll always be proud that I had the tenacity to make it happen.

Same thing again with the big decision this year (when DD6 started 1st grade at public school and they would not accommodate her needs) to pull her out after three weeks and transfer to a different school in the district. It's a hassle. It means I have to deal with the complications of having three kids at three different schools. It means I have to drive DD6 to school every day, morning and afternoon. I have to contend with the teachers and others at the first school, where DS8 still attends, who snub me and give me nasty looks and talk behind my back because I dared to transfer my child out of there, LOL. But the bottom line for me is, my child is happy. Therefore it was absolutely the right decision, and I don't care what anyone else says or thinks about it. I know it was right.

Sorry for being so long-winded. My point is, if you are doing what you know is right for your son by homeschooling, I believe you will look back a year from now, 5 years from now, and be so proud of yourself that it won't matter what anyone else thought. And don't defend your decision. All you have to say is "This is my son, he was not happy at that school, and I am doing what I believe is best for him." Period.

Kudos to you.

GG

Lisa, if you think it will help, do it! :-) It would be worth it if it gets your daughter a chance to work at her potential.

Take along the article on Cutting Down the Poppies to give the headmistress; that's a great one (see the articles section on this site).

And you know, about maturity, the problem with that argument is that there is rarely an ideal fit for highly gifted kids. There are parts of them that just won't fit in anywhere. If your daughter stays where she is now, it's a poor fit academically--which is damaging to her. Possibly it's a poor fit socially, too, if intellectually she can't relate to her age peers. If she's grade-skipped, yes, there may be times when she acts her age and is less mature than her grade peers. But how is that any worse than the poor fit she has right now?

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow. Best of luck!

GG

Thanks for the advice, meeting is in 6 hours!
The 'cutting down the poppies' thing is shocking, I had no idea about it until a couple of weeks ago.
The schools are run by the local government. The only other alternative is private schools and our income wouldn't cover it. I've also got 2 younger daughters to think about.
I don't think that 1 grade skip is enough for her academically, but I think it would be like feeding her to the lions if she went straight into comprehensive school in September. Just missing out 1 year of the 2 years she has left at her current school would be much more of a smooth transition.
What I should have said earlier too, is that the comprehensive school has a 'gifted programme' already in place with a dedicated teacher. I don't know enough about it yet as I only found out a few days ago but wow, it can only be a positive thing.
Anyway, must go and make some notes or something, prepare myself for meeting.
Lots of deep breaths needed!!

Still feeling scared, do I sound over the top if I say this meeting decides the rest of my daughters life? Thats how I see it anyway.
Wish I had the courage like galaxy girl!!!

Great post GG!
I can relate to being snubbed and talked about regarding educational choices. My son and I are very similar in the fact that we don't care much about the opinions of people that we don't admire ourselves. In some ways, the reaction of others regarding your own personal issues and choices, helps to define their own character.

Good Luck Lisa,
I would be nice if you can figure out how to meet the teacher from the gifted program, perhaps to ask if there are any parent groups in the area, or if she can introduce you to other parents in the area with children like yours.

This gives you a chance to try to see if she can meet your child, and perhaps she can work with your Headmistress on the possible skip?

Seems to me that most people are very approachable, and like to share what they know. A "I'd like to learn more about giftedness" is usually enought to get the conversation started. Let's face it - teachers in gifted programs probably get as isolated as we parents do. Who will believe them about little Tommy or little Susy?

Best Wishes,
Trinity

I'm new to the forum and therefore hesitate to express my genuine feelings on some of the subject matter. I couldn't live with myself, however, if I didn't come to the defense of some well qualified teachers.

First and foremost I want you to know I'm not a formal educator and do not consider myself to be bias. I did substitute many years ago and was disappointed with the education system. I concluded back then that if I ever had a child she/he would not attend a public school. I've had to eat my words because low and behold our DD attends a public school. Her elementary school is in the best district in our city of more than a million residents. Our district superintendent formerly led the education system for an entire state; he has a lot of experience to say the least.

Is this district flawless? Not by a long shot!!!!!! There have been two incidents within the last week that made headlines in regards to our daughter's very school. Behind the fenced in(chain link) playground is a woodsy area where men with cameras have been spotted taking pictures of the children at recess; my child included. Has the district taken precautionary measures to place a privacy fence to avoid this from occuring again? Of course not! My daughter is in a portable building (due to overcrowding) around the same vicinity as the perverted photographers. If a child has to use the restroom during the day other than the class break they walk to the main building on their own. If the weather is unfavorable the children get wet walking to and from the main building for PE or other classes, library time, lunch, etc. It's ridiculous to me that not even a simple awning has been placed to protect them from the rain much less from perverts lurking in the woods. I brought this up to the Principal and her facial expression was "it 'aint gonna happen, lady". I spoke to her teacher about it she mentioned to me that for years the teachers have been trying to get them to do this in addition to adding a restroom. But each time it's addressed it gets turned down. I promised her I will pursue the topic until something gets done. I know my journey will fall on deaf ears but I will try my absolute best.

Every single day I hold my breath as I drop my sweetie off at school. Every morning I pray that she comes back to us in the same (hopefully better) condition as her arrival. You must think we're crazy for allowing her to continue her education there after all that. We can't afford to send her to a private school. My desire and plan is to someday soon go back to homeschooling. We both loved it. Calvert is the curriculum we used and it was amazing!!! It is ten times more advanced than public school. Maybe because it's the same curriculum used in their private institution in Maryland.

Sorry I got sidetracked. Back to my main reason for posting. As I said I used to subtitute and have seen many upon many teachers that quite honestly do not have the right to influence our children the way they do. At times I felt like circling the want ads and handing it to them. I never did but I sure felt like it. In contrast, though you have teachers who are so passionate about their work. They live for teaching and not the other way around. They have a strong desire to reach the heart of every single little person and make a difference in their young life. They have no boundaries and continue their day as teachers beyond 3:00, holidays, and the summer. There are some, Folks who REALLY care about your gifted child but due to the "system" are very limited in what they can do.

Have you ever spent an entire day with a teacher? Maybe if you did you'd realize there is very little time to actually teach. I recently spent a day with our DD's class. By the time her teacher did everything she had to do to prepare 21 kids for the day it was time to send them off to another class. She gets them back and they go on a restroom break, they walk to the classroom and spend a little time on some math maybe and it's time for lunch. She gets them back they do a little reading and it's time for recess and another restroom break. She gets them back and maybe they do a worksheet or two and it's time to go home. I failed to mention all the disciplining involved in a day's work and the time it takes to mark folders. Oh and heaven forbid it be a day when parents drop off birthday cupcakes to hand out.

What I'm trying to say is, when do teachers have the time to teach or to focus on the needs of your gifted child? For all the GENUINELY sincere educators out there I really took offense (for their sake) at the remarks about their incompetency and low IQ's, how unfair is that? When I homeschooled our daughter last year I literally would spend a minimum of three to four hours daily schooling her. The phones would get turned off and everyone knew they were not to knock on my door during those hours. I did no laundry, no dishes, no cleaning whatsoever. I completely focused my attention on this one child. Yes, one child and it would take 3-4 hours to cover a day's work. Her education was of the best quality because I had an excellent curriculum and the time to spend teaching. These teachers, however, don't have the same luxury. What a difference it would make if teachers could do the job they were trained for and leave everything else to an assistant. I know our education system sucks (for lack of a better word). But rather than knocking them for what they cannot do perhaps your frustration should be focused and directed to the board of education better yet with the Federal Government. It's about time they get more involved in making quality education a priority in our country.

Your children, my daughter deserve the best education regardless of monetary resources. Unfortunately for the moment we cannot expect the school system or our teachers to do it for us. If we want quality education for our children we have to be proactive and be willing to do whatever it takes to acquire it ourselves. Even if it means sending your child to school during the day and continuing their education at home in the evenings. That's what I do. She gets both. It's not easy but it's what I need to do to keep her challenged.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone but I'm not sorry for coming to the defense of those who have earned the title 'Teacher'.

Don�t apologize for expressing your opinion and concerns!

If you read back over the archival and current posts, I think you will see that most of us have praised and expressed gratitude for teachers who have taught our children and administrators that we have dealt with regarding proper placement and challenge.

I my opinion, it is the �teaching doctrine� that is faulty! I had a conversation (ok-debate) with a current education major this weekend. This great guy who really cares about children is being �brainwashed� by his college instructors. He informed me that it is helpful to gifted children to tutor others in the classroom (during regular school hours). He could not see any difference between �tracking� and �ability grouping�, both of which he considered bad. He was very adamant that a teacher couldn�t spend too much time teaching academics because they had a responsibility to teach children �how to learn� instead.

I assured him that keeping children in a lock step education where the material is way below their challenge level will have the exact opposite effect. I also offered to loan him dozens of books with alternate viewpoints to balance what he hears in class.

Could someone please explain the "tracking" and "ability grouping" and what is "gifted clustering"?

Tracking is when children are put in a "track" early in elementary school. For example, a school may have three 1st grade classes (low, middle & high). The children basically stayed in these tracks all the way through school. The argument against tracking is that it locked kids into a position and supposedly the kids in the low class end up with some type of negative self-image. (Sidebar: I don't think it helps to have the slower kids in the same class as the highly gifted. I remember one mother in my daughter's pre-K class telling me that her son came home crying one day because he didn't think he would ever read as well as my daughter.)

Ability grouping puts children with like abilities together. In theory, the groups are fluid and children move between them as achievement and ability allow. Ability grouping can be done within a class (many literacy programs are designed to use ability grouping within a classroom) or among several classes or even between grades. Also, the ability groups are different for each subject so that a child that excels at math and struggles with reading may be in a high ability math group but a lower ability reading group. In theory this allows children to learn at their optimum rate.

Gifted clustering is where a minimum number of gifted students are put in a class together (most commonly 3-8 gifted kids in a class). This allows them to have peers and supposedly makes it easier for a teacher to differentiate.

A word about gifted children "tutoring" other children in the classroom:

My child's classroom does this, and I think it can work if both the tutor and recipient initiate the arrangement. In this case, the children are paired by the teacher. My dd told me that most of the time, the other child she is paired with just asks her for "the answer" to the problem. She decided the way to handle this was to tell them (loud enough for the teacher to hear) "I'm not going to give you the answer--figure it out! You can do it."

The problem is, she can't tell the other child how she figures out the answer--she just "knows." I had the same problem with a TA trying to teach Calculus--he had never struggled with it, so he couldn't tell us clueless students how to work through the process.

If the kids come up with it on their own, fine. Otherwise, it is frustrating for both the tutor and the "tutee."

Hi all, I am brand new to this forum. I came across this forum when looking for gifted kids education system and resources. I am so glad I found a forum with like minded people.

gftdgrrlsmom, I think you made a very important point. I was planning on asking my son's 1st grade teacher to pair him up with someone to tutor, hoping it would help improve others while also helping him develop his skills further. But after reading your post, it made me realise what it can do to both tutor and tutee. It gave me something to think about.

In any case, my son, I know is much ahead of many other kids in the class and I am hoping that he will be selected into the gifted kids program. I am very new to all of this concept and the school system in America. Can anyone please help me understand how it really works and what I need to do to prepare ourselves for that. I am willing to put any amount of effort it takes to get him the best education he needs. As many of you have pointed out, the kids are like sponges and my son just absorbs any amount of information that I give him. That's when it made me realize that he is not getting the education to his potential.

Thanks for your repsonses.
STLMom

delbows,

My master's degree is in education and "brainwashing" is definitely the correct word! Also, I didn't teach in the K-12 classrooms, but my dissertation research for my PhD was done in K-12 public schools and what parents see as "education" is very, very different from what public schools see as "education".
Especially now with the emphasis on testing, the concern is not so much in teaching "how to think", but "what to think". Rarely are children encouraged to explore the possibilities, but are taught that there is one right answer. For instance I saw this example:
Question: How many planets are there?
"right" answer: 9
However, due to the wording of the question there are several correct answer including "we don't know" since we only really understand most planets in our soloar system, but there are many solar systems out there in space with an infinite number of possibities. Then, we get into the Pluto situation! However, when the focus is getting kids to pass a proficiency test, we must drill into them there is one correct answer and until the answer keys catch up with modern science the correct answer is 9.

This doesn't fly at all with most gifted children who are more deep learners and naturally question answers. This is why in most public schools gifted children are seen as a distraction and a disturbance (which they are if your focus is teaching to a test and someone inserting answers not correct for the test will infact cause someone to possibly miss that question).

I can see why many school settings are hostile to gifted children. Then, we have states like mine with misguided gifted programs. In order to include a certain percentage of "all children" kids are accepted into the gifted program in several ways, one is through IQ testing, the second is through a portfolio. Well, here is the kicker!! The third way they accept kids is something called "motivation". So, if a teacher sees a "highly motivated" student - regardless of IQ, ability, reading level, math level, etc., etc. - just purely motivation, they can be accepted into the gifted program. My state could be an case study for the next Genius Denied book! But, they have brainwashed teachers and administrators that "inclusion" is more important than educating all students appropriately.

Sorry for the rant, it is just so hard.

Oh yea, for the record I am African American - so please don't believe my disgust with inclusion is racially motivated. It just doesn't help the child who is in no way ready for accelerated work, but has been chosen simply to fill some number. That is wrong for all children involved.

Lisa from England:
How did the meeting go?

This is sidetracking, but...
STBMom writes how gifted children answer questions. I can't help but think about a question that was asked during kid's mass many years ago, when my son was probably in kindergarten or preschool. The priest asked if God is really with us during mass or is it just make believe. DS did not even hesitate - "make believe" he announced to the astounded priest. Later on he has been coached to the "correct" answer :-)
Ania

Ouch! Ania - These kids sure have a lot to keep track of!

STBmom -
Oh, so that's why you are 5 years ahead of me! You've been inside the k-12 system! Thanks for that insighful run down of why these tests don't test gifted kids. I'm still curious about: what parents see as "education" is very, very different from what public schools see as "education".

I'd sure like to hear more about that.

I think my son had the best answer to who should be in which class. Ask the kids, while they are hooked up to a lie detector. Then the kids can be in the class that they think they are ready for, gifted, accelerated, whatever. As a first order approximation, I think that this is the best one could hope for. The key I'd like to see, is an educational system with the flexability to let kids try working at multiple levels and see how they respond.

((Big Smiles))
Trinty

Here�s a tutoring story for you all;

When I was in 5th grade, our school implemented a peer tutoring program. I went to the 6th grade class to tutor an older student. He developed a crush on me because I was nice to him. He delivered a gift to my door on Christmas Eve morning and asked my dad to give it to me. I was absolutely mortified as I was an extremely sensitive child. My parents made sure to share this �cute� story with everyone I was related to over that two day period.

Then, on Valentine�s Day, he left a heart-shaped box of chocolates at my desk. More teasing (of course)! In my angry humiliation, I asked my friends to bring it back to him. Instead of my two friends returning it, every girl in my grade (except me) went. Of course I cry to think of how this boy felt when it was returned by a mob who apparently declared that I didn�t �like� him and to leave me alone!

The next year, we were in the same class because he had flunked. One day (when the principle was gone) our teacher brought me to the principle�s office were she yelled at me the entire time the other kids had lunch and recess. She told me that I had probably ruined his life!

Of course this was a worse case scenario. My daughter tutors for one hour per week after school and my son is a tutee of an older boy who mentors him in above grade level math. I think this is great!! I do not believe it should occur during school hours when every child, including the advanced student should receive a challenging education.

Stbmom,

The planet question is a great example. I posted a while back that my son is often confused as to whether the �correct� answer means the �teacher� answer, the �book� answer or the �full� answer. This will be less of an issue in 6th grade, so I tell him to hang in there! He has learned that if he gives an answer that is �above� the current grade, it is usually marked �wrong�.

He was really funny a few weeks back. He was so incensed that his teacher told the class that when drawing an atom, the neutrons, protons and electrons should be the same number. My son told her that this is true in only a few examples. She told him that was all they needed to know at that point. He ranted at dinner that his class was being mislead and wouldn�t know how to answer a question about seaborgium correctly. He planned to answer correctly on the test no matter what and take it up with the principle if he got marked off. I told him that she would probably only use a basic example on the test (which she did).

Trinity,

You asked I go into more detail on how teachers see education versus parents.

It really boils down to "what" to think versus "how" to think. I am not sure many parents understand the difference between being educated and having knowledge.
In the public (and most private) education sectors the goal is the education. Let's take reading for instance. We often start with the basics when teaching children how to read, rather it be whole language or phonics based - in the school system we first teach "reading" well before "reading comprehension". Now think about it, does it make sense to teach children word recognition before word understanding? Not really. But we do anyway.

Think about this: when you read to your child when they are little, we often read nursery rhymes, stories, etc. However, when we are about to try and "teach" our children to read - the books actually get less complex. No longer beautiful fairy tales or adventures, we are down to one or two words per page and we get excited because our children can "read".
No, they can not read; they can word call. Is reading apart from understand, comprehension, following the story line really reading?

When people used to be taught at home or self taught, or even the one room school house we didn't teach phonics. But, when the emphasis became more mass education and we had to "prove" we really taught people - we began to simply concepts of reading and break them down. Some of that may be because we want to "teach" children to "read" a little too early, some because we have to teach children at so many different levels at the same time, and part because educators have to be "judged" by some standard.
But, imgaine asking a 4 year old to tell you a story. They are very elaborate, exciting, etc. Then look at the books we ask 4 year olds to read. They must actually digress in their imagination and intelligence in order to word call for us. It isn't until some years later (as late as 3rd grade in some places) before we get back to emphasizing reading comprehension, that words are written for a reason, that stories should flow and make sense.

So, when we send our kids off to school to be educated we have to understand that for the most part, in a vast majority of public and private schools - they are not expanding their knowledge. They are, especially in the early years, simply learning to be evaluated by a set of standards that doesn't have a lot to do with deep knowledge, but with somewhat shallow standards.

Teachers aren't to blame - this has been going on for a long time in the U.S.A. And the main reason is that public education was never created for knowledge transfer. If you really take the time to study it (I warn you, it will be depressing), the purpose of mass education was to create workers for the industrial revolution. So, while we definitely need to prepare our kids for the work world, it is really up to us parents to instill in them true knowledge and a quest for deep understanding.

delbow,

I agree with you on tutoring. I really think it should not take place during school hours. All children should be allowed to learn new and deeper information during the school day.
Also, teaching others is a big responsibility and I wouldn't want my 10 year old responsible for ensuring another 10 year old learned the information.
Most children are asked to tutor others so they won't "get too far ahead" of the others in class. Tutoring by choice after school or working on group projects is another thing, but forcing children to stop their quest for knowledge to help others master what they already have just isn't right.
It's like being in the workplace and everyone starts out in the same job. One person is going to be promoted and that person must know X. You already know X. However, your boss tells you that to ensure you don't get an unfair advantage, you must teach everyone else on the job X as well. You are not the manager, supervisor, or team lead, just a peer. But you are givin the responsibility of a manager (without the pay or other benefits). If my child is asked to tutor duing the school day, I would like him compensated like any adult would be compensated. Give him the hourly wage of a para or teaching assistant

stbmom:
That is really interesting, about teaching reading. My own son has complained of having to read "silly books" that he says are preschool level. He commented that they are "preschool books with easy words and silly stories." What he was asking for was a book with some plot, a storyline and character development! His teacher tried to explain to us that she was working on fluency and oral reading skills - but he was so bored with the content of the book that he was actually reading it in a monotone voice and totally aggravated that he had to read it! But give him a more interesting book and he reads beautifully - if only she could "get it."

Thanks for sharing that insight, as it helps me to know that although I'm not an educator, my ideas are not far off. And reminds me that I know my child and his needs best!

sbtmom,
I knew about the industrial roots of our education system, but had never really thought about how that relates to teaching reading. Very interesting.

Like dajohnson60 it makes me think of my DS in 1st grade. His teacher asked me to talk to him one day because he did such a terrible job of reading aloud. He was reading in a really high pitched fast voice and was next to impossible to understand. When I asked him about it, he said that the books were really stupid so he was reading them that way.

I can understand to some degree using reading aloud to assess childrens' reading ability, but it's one thing that kept Mite from being "discovered" in his abilities. He cannot read outloud very well at all. He stumbles and totters all over the page. I think it has to do with his visual issues and with the dyspraxia. They should have better measures of reading ability, imo.