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DD is 7 1/2 and just started the G&T class a few weeks ago. So far she is generally happy to go to school and doesn't complain about going. So far so good and fingers crossed that it continues.

The problem is she really has no friends and I can't quite honestly figure out what the problem is. Last year she'd play by herself or walk around and talk with the recess monitor. She also told us she ate lunch by herself and once kids even asked her to move. She also told me that she had kids telling her she was stupid. None of this seemed to really bother her.

So this year she seemed to be doing a little better and bonded for a few days with another little girl whose mom told me she was having a rough time adjusting. I told this to dd and they started playing together. That lasted about 2 days when this little girl started playing with another little girl instead of dd and dd proclaimed she was "independent again". She is just matter of fact about it and I can't tell if she really could care less or if she's trying to save face. Honestly, if she doesn't really want friends I'm fine with it but I have a hard time reading my dd and so I can't tell which it is.

My older dd is a social butterfly (always has been) and has so many friends, I can't understand why my younger dd struggles so much. Older dd who is 10 has actually come to me worried about how dd doesn't have friends.

Another thought that came to mind, we just found out that there is yet another birthday party dd hasn't been invited to. Last year she was only invited to two.

I know she isn't a bully, she's very quiet and introverted and seems to be okay playing by herself. I can't understand why she is having such a hard time. Should I intervene or just let younger dd find her way by herself?

Oh, and a few days ago a 3rd grader in her class actually pushed dd on her chest and we had to have a talk about this and what to do if it happens again. It just makes me sad that she doesn't seem to fit in.

Maybe reading some SENG articles on introversion might help the perspective:
http://www.sengifted.org/archives/a...en-forgotten-factor-impacting-the-gifted

Based on your descriptions it sounds like some bullying- so yes, I would intervene.

My DS6 had some difficulties making friends in kindergarten, but I didn't see much in the way of bullying. Some occasional kids being a little mean or snarky but not to the level of bullying. For this reason, we let him work it out a bit on his own, and tried to teach better social skills.

Asking your child to move at lunch, calling names, excluding from parties, and pushing is not okay. I tell my son that he doesn't have to be friends with everyone, but he needs to be friendly and kind. At his birthday party, he was allowed to invite only the boys or the full class. He could not exclude individuals, or guess what? No party.

A couple of suggestions:
1. talk with the teacher and ask him/her to talk with the recess monitor- you may get more insights into what happens during the day.

2. use this information to assess your daughter's skills to handle the bullying and make friends.

3. I don't know if your daughter does any extracurricular activities, but it might help her make friends in a different setting. My son takes Taekwondo at facility with a strong anti-bullying message. The benefits of martial arts have been a blessing for DS.

I don't believe that kids have to "fit in" to make friends, but some (including my own DS) could use some work on social skills and cooperation. Some assertiveness training (like my son receives in martial arts) can nip the bullying in the bud. I'm not at all talking about aggression, just some training in effective body language and words that will stop bullies.

I've had these experiences with 2 of my kids. DS13 didn't truly care about friendship until middle school. He used to say I have nothing in common with the kids at school. He did started a friendship in 3rd grade that has lasted through years, but he was otherwise indifferent to connecting with his peers. Now in High School he probably cares to much as most teens do.

My DD6 was a social butterfly from day one. Only in the last year has she gotten less connected with peers. She had a hard time at camp adjusting to the new group of kids this year. She does have one very close friend, but they are not in the same class or groups anymore. The first couple weeks of camp she played alone. She never complained and the staff had no idea she was having any issues. When I asked her if she wanted to play with other kids she initially said no. Over time I figured out it was that she didn't want to play with them, but she was struggling with their behavior & interests. She isn't a confrontational or even assertive child and was feeling hurt by their reactions to her. She was retreating from their snappy comments rather than rolling with it or responding to them. With a little encouragement from the camp staff she began to connect with the other girls in the group. She is a very geeky goofy girl and doesn't connect with the other girls over the stereotypical girls stuff. She likes Legos & Star Wars not Barbie & clothes. As she gets older she is less willing to pretend she likes the things they like and she isn't willing to tell them she does share their interests.

I spent a lot of time questioning DD about her interactions. I tried hard to not let on to my concerns over it, but inquired a lot about her day. I did ask her if she wanted to play with her peers & why or why not? In her case, it really was a combination of being overly sensitive to their behavior & a lack of common interest, but she did desire peers to connect with. For my DS, he legitimately had no desire at all. Over the years, I encouraged him when the opportunities have come up, but let it be for the most part. He is finding his way socially over time.

In her case, it really was a combination of being overly sensitive to their behavior & a lack of common interest, but she did desire peers to connect with.

Yes. This echoes my experience with my DD, now 14. It wasn't that she wasn't interested in having friends, just that she wasn't interested in being SO radically not who she is in order to maintain the facade. She preferred, mostly, to keenly observe the behavior of peers instead of interacting directly. A sort of Jane Goodall of the elementary and middle school culture, if you will.

I read "potential bullying" into the OP's post, too, however. I would definitely intervene. Some of those interactions sound quite hurtful.

Instead of replying to each post I'm gonna respond as best I can to what has been posted.

In regards to bullying, I don't *think* she is being bullied but I will keep my eye open to the possibility. Most of what I described happened last year and it was never the same kids and these things only happened a few times. This year she is in a completely new class and only 3 of her former classmates are in this class with her and none of them were really mean to her. The girl that pushed her is actually completely new to the school for this self-contained G&T class so she is definitely somebody I have on my radar to watch out for. I did tell dd that this girl is not allowed to touch her like that and if it happens again she needs to tell the girl to not touch her and then tell the teacher about it. My dd being the quiet kid she is in school, her way of getting back at this girl was to take a really REALLY long time in the bathroom when this girl was in line behind her. I'm actually kinda mortified by her passive aggressiveness in how she handled it.

To clarify, my post is really directed at dd's school situation. She is a completely different kid in school than she is at home. At school her teacher last year said she didn't interact much or engage in the classroom. She had a friend in kindergarten for quite awhile but then dd decided to no longer be her friend b/c the girl was too manipulative and bossy. This friend still desperately wants to be my dd's friend, asks for play dates, always tells her hi, and my dd doesn't want to have anything to do with her. I'm friends with the mom, older dd is friends with the older sibling of this girl and so we do see each other often and dd ignores her. So it's this kinda situation that makes me think my dd is just particular about who she wants as a friend.

She isn't as introverted at home as she is at school. At home she has a neighbor girl she sometimes plays with but the girl is 2 years younger than her. I think it's a friendship of convenience for dd who seems to have control over what and how they play and the girl lets her. Dd seems to prefer to play with her older sister and older kids at home.

I do ask dd a lot of questions about her day, and not just about friends. I'll ask her who she sat with at lunch. What did she play at recess, did she play with anybody? What was the best part of her day? The worst? The funniest? etc... to try to get a feel of how her days go.

Dd is a big daydreamer and likes to be in her own little world and is content to just play by herself the majority of the time. So maybe that is part of it? I also kinda get the feeling that it's her quirkiness and her mature expectations in a friend that are interfering with her ability to make friends. It just makes me sad to see her alone.

This sounds so much like my dd. That's why I get the feeling she really doesn't care if she has friends or not. There is a girl in our neighborhood who goes to our school and is in her class and I've offered so many times before school started to walk down with her so we could meet this girl and her mom and dd just plain doesn't want to.

Have you talked to one of the guidance counselors at your daughter's school? Our elementary school takes social skills very seriously, and offers groups to help children who are having a tough time socially. It might be worth a call to see if they have any suggestions.

My dd is also very different at school. She hides who she is at school. She says she doesn't like to be "seen" by people. She would rather blend quietly in the background whether socially or academically. At home she is a bubbly bouncy quirky kid, but at school she is all smiles & agreeable to everyone to avoid conflict or standing out. I would ask the staff what they see at school. If she is anything like my DD they may answer absolutely nothing looks out of place to them.

I felt the same way watching DS sit on the playground with a book all year rather than talk or interact with peers. He really was fine with it. He really did see peer relations as a waste of time in his younger years. The boys all wanted to play sports or other things he had zero interest in. They often didnt know what he was talking about when he did bring something up. I took opportunities as they came to encourage his social development over the years. He is still isn't always comfortable in the group setting but he functions well in it. He does better at the high school because his peers are older and have more common interest with him. Although he was fine, it always left me feeling a little sad for him.

Us introverts will often be wide open with family but try to maintain a minimal amount of very high quality friends. Sounds like the only thing she has to worry about is other people worrying about her and not issues that she owns herself.

Introverts are often keen observers of people and can be very socially skilled when it is worth the effort. And sometimes they know exactly what to do to make sure they aren't burdened by low quality acquaintances who'll eat up their independence and energy to unsatisfying effect.

Well-stated, Zen Scanner. This is something that my DH (an extravert) has a great deal of difficulty understanding about my DD and myself.

Ahh... I appreciate the clarification- maybe not bullied and excluded, so much as introverted? I can appreciate being an introverted, dreamy kid- I was one myself.

I think you just have to gauge whether she seems happy or of there is some lagging skill that is holding her back from friendships.

With your DD, being both introverted and gifted, it's likely that she finds her own thoughts more fascinating than what is going on at recess. She may have a low tolerance for exhausting personalities and playground politics, so opts out. She may decide she wants more friends and will need to change her habits- but if it were me I would eat her discover that on her own. She'll make friends when it becomes important to her- and you can support her with how to go about it.

Sorry, no advice. just sympathy.

My ds had a miserable time in k. I wasn't sure what to do. I was in constant communication with the teacher about his lack of challenge. I did mention how he felt like he had no friends. Apparently, he was friendly and talkative at school. What I did not learn till summer was a boy was bullying him.

Before this year started, he said, "you know I had no friends last year." This year, ds is saying he's lonely. He does like a couple boys, but I'm not sure what they think. He plays alone at recess, because "everyone has other friends". I know he wants friends.

Interestingly, he plays fine in the neighborhood and interacts well at swim team. I think he does feel different and is very sensitive. I will say that I did arm ds with games for swim meets which helped. Usually he reads to kids- which soon is not gonna be cool. It is hard to watch him struggle with this.

Will be following this thread.

Re the kid she decided not to be friends with because she was too bossy and manipulative - does the kid understand this or does she think your dd is being mean and excluding her? And with the younger neighbour kid who you say your dd has a friendship of convenience so she can control the games - is that kid going to turn round in 6 months and stop playing with you dd is being bossy and manipulative.

Also the birthday parties. My son has 24 kids in the class - no way can i do a party for 24, 12 of them are boys - can't do that either. He has about 6 people he has known for years to invite so he can invite 2 or 3 kids from his class that is all. However unlike a lot of other parents i don't let him take invitations to school and i encourage him not to talk about who is coming. One person i know let he son hand out invitations at school to every boy in the class bar one (what was she thinking?). I've heard parents say they think their kid is being mean but it is up to the kid (um no).

My son's school has a party invite policy: No passing out invitations unless everyone in the class gets one.

I don't know if the kid understands this, the kid's mom does though. Quite honestly I don't blame my dd if she chooses to not be this girl's friend anymore if she is telling my dd that she has to go down a 150 foot water slide with her or she won't be her friend anymore. Then keep bothering my dd about it for more than an hour. (FWIW my dd has sensory issues and couldn't actually even step foot in water parks/splash parks until she was 6, so there is no way she's going down a water slide.) I'm not sure what you mean by excluding this girl, b/c my dd doesn't play with anybody else so she isn't excluding her from anything. She just prefers to not play with her for things that I don't consider unreasonable.

To be clear I didn't say my dd likes to manipulate her younger neighbor friend. I said "it's a friendship of convenience" for her b/c the little girl just follows her lead and tolerates my dd's 'playing style'. My dd can be a bit overwhelming in the sense that she is a big planner. For instance, they decide to play store, it's not just "hey let's play store", instead it's: let's draw a layout of the store, let's make a list of what we'll sell, let's make receipts and fake money, let's plan/write down what we're going to say, etc, etc. She plays like this nearly every time (at home anyway, not sure about at school) and not many of the kids around, older sister included, have the patience for this. It seems as though dd enjoys the planning and thinking about how the play is gonna happen more than actually playing. If this little girl decides to stop playing with my dd b/c of this I'm not going to force her to play with my dd.

As for the birthday parties, the majority of the parties I found out through the grapevine through other parents. It just happens to come out, i.e. "Oh, are you guys going to A's birthday this weekend, can you drive my kiddo?" I don't expect kids to invite my dd to their party out of pity or be forced to. I was just expressing sadness about more reminders of how my dd's lack of friends is apparent.

I came to this board with this problem looking for fellow parents of gifted children who may have similar concerns with their kids. I was hoping for advice or tips from others who have BTDT. Your post didn't come across as very supportive but, you know, it's the internet and things can be misconstrued so I'm maybe it's just me.

I reread and no it didn't sorry about that. I have been where your daughter is except I tolerated the crap - it didn't occur to me it shouldn't be that way.

One thing i have worked out recently (it took me a long time) is that what offends me is different than what offends nearly everybody else. I can be dreadfully upset when the personally genuinely didn't mean anything (as in ignorance rather than malice) but also upset people because i commented on the elephant standing in the middle of the room.

I do think with parties it is mean to leave a few people out which is why i prefer to invite mostly non school people and relatives and i would not let my son leave people out like that. I think it is better to invite 2 out of 24 than 20 out of 24.

It also may be that the other kids your daughters age aren't what she needs as friends. If she is happy to wait for the right person maybe just give her lots of opportunities to meet new people.

I didn't mean to offend as such just to point out that sometimes you can explain to someone what it is they do that upsets you and solve the problem. Now if i could only follow my own advice better because i tend to just walk away and it really doesn't work well.

My mantra for the year is "most offence is caused by ignorance or carelessness not malice"

Mountainmom2011, you may already be familiar with this piece by Miraca Gross on the different types of fulfillment sought by children in friendships. Hope it's helpful.

http://www.sengifted.org/archives/a...t-gifted-children-look-for-in-friendship

Your last post rang minor alarm bells for me about girls with aspergers - it was the "more interested in setting up play than the actual playing", particularly in combination with wanting to play her games her way... I have a girl with Aspergers and she doesn't play "normally" and it has caused some problems.

On the other hand, my 2nd daughter is most definitely not on the spectrum but is deeply introverted and absolutely fits the pattern of many introverted kids mentioned above - she has quite good social skills if she can be bothered using them, she likes people, she'd like to have friends, but she's not remotely going to play with people or play games that don't interest her at all, she'd much rather go and play alone and enjoy her own world. She CAN play cooperatively, she can play lots of different ways, with lots of different kids, but she WON'T play with just anyone doing just anything for the sake of having company. She's clearly one for a few high quality friends or solitude...

I read it that way too. There is a difference (and a hard one to sort out sometimes) between people who are introverts with usable social skills, and those who cover up for social skills deficits using introversion as a way of not interacting.

Mountain, there are a few things in your description that sounded like your DD doesn't have the skills to play the way other kids do. Controlling others' play is something we often see in kids with Asperger's.

Obviously, it's not diagnostic-- just one thing to consider.

DeeDee

DeeDee
What about this scenario - my DS7 is often a loner but can also be exceptionally social, especially with adults. In school he likes to play by himself during recess because he wants a break from people and kids to enjoy what's in his head. When he does play, even with gifted age mates, he wants to play his imaginary games, and tends to not want to do what others what because "it's not as good as mine". But with older kids, is more than happy to play their games, to do give and take, in short to play appropriately

How do you tell the difference between not being interested in playing things that don't fully engage him and that being an actual problem? Is it being able to play normally when choosing to?

I was worried about DS until I went on a field trip. He doesn't have "best friends" he never wanted play dates but then i saw that he is liked and engages appropriately. I think he finds the play of his age mates, again even in his gifted school, to get boring over time. So then he opts out. But is that really a problem - I guess what I am asking - is how do you know when it's an issue?

DeHe

I have wondered about aspergers before, even more so when she was younger. She seemed to grow out of many of her quirks/concerning behaviors. Since finding out she was HG I then just chalked it up to her LOG. Also, her WISC results are the opposite of what I have read are typical for aspergers. Her VCI was 124 and PRI was 151.

So I'm still torn as to what is the real issue. She is definitely different than the average kid, question is what is the reason.

Curious, do girls with aspergers do better one on one with kids vs. a group of kids? We just had a play date yesterday at the park with a 10 year old gifted girl and she did great. I think if she is playing one on one she does much better. This is something her pre-k teacher noticed about her when she was 3/4 years old. She avoided groups of kids. Another thing the pre-k brought to my attention at that age is she didn't like to be touched. At home, however, with me she has always been affectionate.

DeHe - doing well socially with adults but not so much with children can be a red flag too, any social skill deficits in the child are propped up by adults' greater skills (and greater tolerance). It certainly was in our family. Or even being more likely to play with older or younger children, same thing - older children's skills will prop up the situation, younger children may look up to the older child or just be a better match socially.

BUT as I said my 2nd child will opt out of play she's not interested in and we have concluded that she's absolutely not on the spectrum. Watching her play with a child who is a good match for her they will play freely, fluidly and flexibly with neither child constantly dominant or leading the play and she's capable of doing this for hours or even days. But a kid she's not that into playing something she's not that into? "Oh look there might be lizards under those rocks..." and she's gone. Yes she will pick and choose, but she is fully capable of following someone else's lead, and playing in a truly equal and interactive way. Unsurprisingly the kids who are a good match for her are age mates, or close to age mates who I either know to be gifted or who I place bets are gifted.

MountainMom - having read your other thread I want to really strongly encourage you to find someone who is an expert in girls who are gifted and "quirky" I really do think there is something going on with your DD, but it should be a professional, not the internets who help you figure out what that something is. I highly recommend books like "Aspergirls" and "Girls Under the Umbrella" though.

A checklist is far from definitive but these lists were helpful to me in deciding to pursue professional help:

http://suelarkey.com.au/media/Tip_Sheet_-_Girls_with_an_ASD.pdf

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/wp_a58d4f6a.html

http://aspergersgirls.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/aspergers-traits-women-females-girls/

Hi DeHe--


As Mum3 notes, doing better with adults than peers is sometimes a flag. My DS11 would, from a young age, converse nicely with adults--because he was essentially pumping them for information (which he would then happily categorize/ systematize). Peers were not that much fun for him because he had poor play skills and they didn't have the information he craved. (He also lectured peers on scientific topics. Possibly still would if they tolerated it.)

The loner thing is also complex. Despite his autism, DS11 is a fairly gregarious person: he likes sharing jokes, likes having friends, tries hard to do it right. He just makes *tons* of social mistakes and seems wildly immature for his age. He did, it's true, spend a good amount of time walking circles around the playground by himself in early elementary because he couldn't figure out how to join the other kids' games; but by late elementary he was out playing soccer and football etc. with the other kids. That's not the usual image of autism, but it's true for him.


And you know, that was ME as a kid. I always took a book to recess and never played with anyone. I don't think I'm on the spectrum, but I was absolutely a very late bloomer socially, and I'm probably not far from the spectrum. As in, some of my social skills showed up when I was in my late 20s and 30s.


To what extent are the older kids humoring him and being flexible? Adults and older kids often will do this for a younger, interesting, and enthusiastic kid-- they flex more so the kid doesn't have to flex as much.


I can say that my DS11 had virtually no play skills. He lined up toys, wrote and drew almost compulsively, and read voraciously but did not do imaginary play or use toys; we had to teach him to do that. He now likes acting-- but it was a process to get him there, and he is still impatient with other people's fantasy games.

I think being able to play normally some of the time is pretty important in distinguishing. Remember, my experience is basically one kid, DS11, but I would say that a kid with Asperger's will often say avoiding others' activities is a choice or preference where it's really a lack of skills.


My younger DS is more like this--choosy but able to engage with peers in jointly conceived play. And he is able to articulate how others are thinking and feeling, and account for that by changing his own behavior. These are things my elder DS could not have done at that age. I don't think little DS is on the spectrum.

It seems important to me that you see things like the field trip-- that he is able to engage, that it's reciprocal conversation, that he is able to be "in the mix" at least some of the time.

I will also say that if there are other exceptionalities, even things like motor planning problems, it gets even harder to distinguish what normal vs. spectrumy social skills look like, and that having a professional give the ADOS or another standardized measure can be helpful in isolating the specific social skills.

Does that help?

DeeDee

DeeDee
Your wisdom always helps!! I think I am so obsessive about his social life because he was so unhappy in preK. But I think I get trapped by the not wanting to use his giftedness as an answer for everything but at the time it clearly was the issue. But I think because of it he withdrew a bit from peers. With his writing issues, we let him play to his strengths and didn't realize until later that allowing to read and avoid play doh or other types of play involving fine motor stunted him a little.

DS likes adults and the attention they give him - but for his ideas - not necessarily for their information - he wants the audience and also the conversational partner - and often to hear about his crazy ideas, so not necessarily a lecturer like your DS but can be as limiting. Although he can pull the let me amaze you with my knowledge card. The avoidance due to lack of skills masked by choice is interesting because I see that with physical things - not interested in baseball because the hand eye coordination is so rough for him. But he owns that. But on the social side he can absolutely play normally and sometimes will do it for extended periods - when engaged - but he is most engaged when he gets to set up what they are doing.

Mum - I think DS sounds a lot like your daughter! But he is more sneaky about getting away, often helping the other kid find something else to do!

He recently spent time with a group of kids 14, 12, 10 and 9 and DS is 7. The 14 year old clearly got into it for him, would never have played that way on his own. But definitely raised the quality of play and refused to be managed and in fact did a lot of managing and DS was fine with it. The play with the 10 and 9 year old was what was so interesting. They are bright but not like DS and it was fascinating to watch DS rein in know it all behavior, and actually got into more physical play. I was really pleased to see him stand up for himself and hold his own. And he remained engaged - not disappearing to go read or anything.

I think what it comes down to - the struggle - is to accept at face value he doesn't want more play dates because he sees the kids all day long, or to essentially make him have play dates because it would be "good" for him to do so. I don't want him to struggle because we missed something at this stage like we did with the dysgraphia- esque stuff.

Thank you so much for bearing with me - and sorry mm for hijacking!

DeHe

The thing is-- this is absolutely normal HG introvert behavior, too.


(I realize this doesn't help you tease things apart.)

My DD definitely has a preference for one-on-one activities with others, but HAS the skills necessary to interact with a large group. If you list her quirks, she sounds absolutely Aspie. But she's not-- you can tell within seconds of meeting her. Those quirks make her highly Aspie-compatible, however. Many of her closest friends over the years have been on the spectrum. That might be an idea for you, actually. If your DD (or you) know any families with Aspies at similar academic functional levels, you could try setting up a casual social encounter and see how things go.

Does your daughter have a hobby she enjoys? My son is not much older than yours, and he has repeatedly told me he doesn't fit in with the kids at school, and he has wanted to homeschool since kindergarten. Now, his situation is slightly different because thus far there has been no bullying. He gets along ok with the kids at school, but he really has no interest in socializing with them outside of school, and he's fine being the kid on the periphery at school.

However, he has found 2-3 kids with whom he has gotten quite close, and he found them through outside interests (an individual sport). At least locally, the kids who play individual sports like tennis, golf, swimming, and martial arts seem to be much more like my son. Perhaps not all of them are "gifted", but then I don't technically know that my son is either. But they *tend* to be readers, play chess, like legos and board games, etc., and thus my son has found a few kindred souls.

If you haven't introduced her to an individual sport, you might try one. Tennis has the Quickstart program these days which makes it much more accessible to younger kids, most medium sized towns seem to have swimming leagues nowadays, though of course your options depend on location.

If she truly seems to be ok with the situation, you might believe her (and maintain a watchful eye). Some people prefer quality of friends over large social circles, and your daughter may be one. Good luck and I hope the bullying can be remedied.



On edit- After reading some of your additional posts, I agree with at least keeping the spectrum issues in mind. We've never had him tested, but I do think my son is very, very, very mildly an Aspie or on the spectrum. He likes things to be ordered and tidy, he has little patience for those who don't understand things as quickly/easily as he does, and he wants things done a certain way. While I think that has played some role in his friendship issues, I really think for him it has been more of a combination of finding kids with similar interests and his introversion. You just never know with these kids!