Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Please help me choose Out of District Placement

Many of you have followed along with our saga and know that earlier this month the district agreed to Out of District (OOD) placement for DD8. We are now in the process of deciding what school would be the best. We have 3 options in the running, all with pros and cons. I would love some experienced voices of reason to help figure out the best choice.

1. 2E school located out of state. This school is about 2 hours away but my mother lives in the same city. DD and I would stay with her M-F and come home on weekends. They understand what we have been through and as 2E parents themselves can relate to all the struggles we have faced.

Pros: They get 2E - I wouldn't have to explain, advocate or turn myself into a pretzel educating them on her unique profile. Mixed grade classroom (grade 3+4) - maximum of 10 kids in the classroom with 2 teachers - 1 gifted and one spec ed. All math by a math specialist, all reading by a reading specialist. Technology specialist on staff. OT/PT/SLP/Psychs on staff. Sensory gym, break rooms, etc.

Cons: Family would be separated. DD would lose access to her father, her pets, her friends, her dance studio, her musical theater group - basically all things familiar. The district is not on board and we could have a legal fight to get them to approve payment. Attorney is confident we can get it if we push for it but it is not guaranteed. Could involve additional legal fees plus the transportation costs and the cost of maintaining 2 households.

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2. Local psycho-educational school located in our town closer to our home than current elementary school. A calm, nurturing environment that has a Japanese garden, tea house and lots of art. Shortened school day allows time for any additional services that may be needed. Mixed age classroom (grade 2-7) with all teachers spec ed certified. Probably 8 kids in her classroom. They don't believe in labels or testing. They would come up with a program for DD as they got to know her rather than following recommendations from neuropsych, AT eval, etc.

Pros: Ideal location. Shortened school day. No homework unless the child requests it. Would work on DD's anxiety. LD certified school. Approved placement. If we select it DD will be there - no more legal wrangling. Despite all the cons listed below it seems as if the program could actually work for her. Since located in our town district could provide any needed support services (i.e. speech, OT, etc) not available in the school.

Cons: They do not have any clue about 2E. The director made sure that I understood DD does not have "a typical gifted profile" and they do not consider her gifted. Prior to meeting her assumed DD would be an arrogant hot-housed child with no social skills who had to learn to be likable. Director told me I have caused damage to DD by developing an adversarial relationship with the school district. She told a story about allowing her 3rd grader to flounder in 2nd grade math until district wide testing showed him performing at 7th-8th grade level. "99.9% of parents would have fought them rather than let him spend the year in that class but I knew it was better for him not to antagonize the district." (!) Pushed DD really hard during intake interview until she ended up curled in the fetal position. Basically said I have done everything wrong and they want assurances from me that I will be able to back away and let them do whatever they think is best for DD without any interference.

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3. Spec Ed school located about a half hour away. Population seems mostly ADHD and ED. School Psych knows about 2E but stated very clearly that they do not have a 2E program and DD would not have any 2E peers. They would do their best to create an individualized program that would work for her. They had 1 2E kid several years ago but it didn't work and he left (We think we met him at option #2) Mixed age class (grades 2-6) max of 5 kids with a spec ed teacher. This is the placement recommended by the district. It is not outstanding in any area but is an all around compromise placement option.

Pros: Some familiarity with the concept of twice exceptional and willing to make an effort to learn about it and develop an appropriate program. DD could stay at home. The schools has chickens, a fish pond and a garden, all things DD loves. Seems to have all needed support services in place.

Cons: Located a half hour away by *very* congested highway - no way of knowing how long the trip home could take after school. Early start to the day means she would have to leave home before dark much of the year. Early start may impact her ability to participate in evening extra curricular activities. ADHD classmates were *very* bouncy when we visited and DD came home from her day long visit saying " There were 2 boys who were very distracting." She herself was very bouncy after spending the day there.


Any input would be welcome. I'm happy to answer questions or provide more info as needed. Thanks in advance!

Remind me of the size of your family? Option 1 would involve your other kids not seeing you during the week, right? That sounds like it would be really hard, and hard to dispel the notion that you would be "favoring" DD8.

I don't think I could send her to option #2 in good conscience while the current director is there. Do you have any feel for how involved she would be in DD's program?

None of these options are great, as you already know. Are there activities close to option 3 that she could do after school, moving your commute time to a less congested time of day?

No other kids - just DD to worry about which is why #1 is even an option. Director runs #2 with an iron fist. She is the sole arbiter of just about everything there. Anyone attending or working at #2 has to be willing to just say "Yes Ma'am" and let her call the shots. All of the shots. I could do that IF I was sure they were meeting DD's needs. I don't know how to tell in advance if it could work though...

Keeping her in the current extra-curriculars is a big part of why #1 would be so hard. She has friends and feels supported. I don't think its an option to try to find replacements near #3 instead. She would be on the school bus which is why they would be limited to 1 route home regardless of how bad traffic was on any given day.

I would run a mile from #2 and I would probably also run a mile from #3. Which leaves #1, along with its very real issues. Home school is not an option?

#2 wouldn't even make my list. Where's the compassion?

About the 2E child who attended the #3 school-would the school ask his parents if you may call them to speak about their experience with the school? If not, they may be trying to skirt their lack of ability to work effectively with a 2E child. I'd balk at my child being a test case. How long before they would determine if the program they develop is right or not? Not loving this choice.

My vote is with #1. It looks near-perfect. If it were an hour drive away, would it look better?

Consider relocating to a home in between the school and your spouse's place of employment. The commute for said spouse may be longer (or not?). The commute to the school will be about an hour and would require a parent or caregiver to drive DD there and back. Surely this hour wouldn't be longer than she'd spend on a bus for option number #3? She may have to give up some extra-curriculars she enjoys that are close to your current home in favor of others closer to the school/your new home. With this option, you are home with DD AND your spouse at night. It's a trade-off your DD makes. She gives up proximity to extra-curriculars/friends to keep proximity to her dad.

Not saying being 2E is on par with a life-threatening disease, but I know of families that rent apartments near the hospital their child attends for treatment. Keeping the family together is very important, imo. I'd definitely sacrifice location for that.

Of course, there's always the complete family relocation option requiring new places of employment closer to the school. But the extra-curriculars and friends lose out again. I don't see any way to keep those all intact with anything other than option #2, anyway.

Good luck to your family in the decision!

Hey, we are currently looking at me living wherever DD attends college in 18 months, so #1 would get my vote, as a fellow parent of an only.

Skype and cellular contact don't make up the difference between actually BEING together as a family, but...

it doesn't look to me as though your other options are very good, either. I'm sorry that neither of the other two choices seems better.

I agree with PP, #1 seems to be the only choice that fully understands your dd. #2 sounds really inviting...until you get to the person who runs it, whose outlook sounds a bit dehumanizing.

It's sad you have to be making such hard choices at all.

Reading the cons on #1 had me vote on anything but this, until I saw #2. And #3.

#2 looks like it would be a worse disaster than your current placement was. Huge red flags before you even reach the cons, actually (an LD school unwilling to take into account outside reports and will develop program based on their feelings about what she needs?!?).

What's the take of local parents about #2 and #3? And if that 2E boy who left #3 is at #2, how is he doing? But no, I don't see a way you can trust that director.

My vote is for #1, despite the separation. And planning for one year of split living while trying to figure out a way to reunite the family either near the school or at least closer if it goes well.

Re. extra-curriculars, you know your daughter best, but she might need that supportive social group less when she is finally in an appropriate placement at school. Finding new classes near #1 (or options near home that are open on WEs?) could help but not be as critical.

This is a least evil option choice, unfortunately

P
Your DD has visited all these schools,so has an idea of what going to them would mean. So what does she want? What is she willing to try? I agree with the others that #2 sounds like a problem, just starting from the perspective that's it's probably the worst thing for you after the years you have had, it's not likely to make you feel comfortable.

We moved to get DS his gifted school, we gave up the house for an apt. I have a longer commute but he doesn't and he's happy. DS doesn't do after school because its such a long day but the school is working, and they are working with me. I would go with option 1 and trying to figure out a halfway option. Your DD could continue to see her friends on the weekend, but being with DH is better for you and her- if there was anyway to stay together and do 1 I would go for that.

Alternatively would you be willing to try 2 or 3 and pull her for 1 if it didn't work out, can you do that? At least that way, the fight with district will be delayed.

In my experience what was important for us was to make sure we were comfortable with our decision - if you are not you are always second guessing yourself and that is just not a good way to live. On the other hand if you did 1 and living with your mom turned out o be too rough, you could always move back and try some thing else. Or move so e place else - unless your DH is job locked.

HTH,
DeHe

What DeHe said. Any chance your DH could be mobile, with time? Or is this a permanent deal?

Very uncomfortable with 2.

So tough, Pemb-- eventually the universe ought to cut you a break.

DeeDee

HUGS, none are perfect unfortunately, but there is no way I personally would do number 2 for my DD. Seriously, what the heck is with that director. Just wrong on so many levels. I would be running for the hills and would not even consider it.
Number 3 would be a maybe, but I would really want for my understanding of giftedness and for there to be some peers but that is a perfect world right? Number one sounds ideal although being a way from home and not with your dh could definitely but a strain on finances and not to mention the marriage itself. So those would be huge considerations. I would definitely consider the idea of a move halfway between the 2 if at all possible, then a commute for both of yall but together as a family. Sigh. I wish I had some good answers for you, Looks like yall have some tough decisions ahead.

Thanks everyone. There really is no good option here - it's very much a case of choosing the least bad option. I think any are better than what we have experienced over the past couple of years but none seem like the answer to our problems.

DH is a tenured full professor - his job is not at all portable. The benefit of job security is off-set by being permanently bound to the location. Since the district will be paying we don't have the option of relocating unless we are willing to start the whole process over. He can arrange to teach his classes on 2 days a week so if needed he could come join us at the beginning or end of the week. That can't be a regular thing but he could do it sporadically if we were at the 2E school.

DH and DD are very, very close. He has always arranged his schedule to spend significant amounts of time with her. (i.e. Grading and prepping classes in the middle of the night so that after school he can be with her at the park, playground, museums, etc.) He is very hands on so it would be rough for both DD and me to suddenly be a single parent. 2E option is in MAJOR city - nothing like our suburban lifestyle. Yes I could find her a dance studio and a children's theater company but I don't think they would have the same feel to them. Probably a lot more entree to professional performing than after school activity. We are talking MAJOR upheaval. DH and I have been married 25 years so stability is not a problem in that regard. Yes we would certainly do it but it is not an appealing option.

I have asked DD's psych to speak to director of #2 and see what she thinks. As off-putting as our interactions were there do seem to be some benefits to the program. It would be so different from her previous experience I am wondering if I can even look at it as a detoxifying year. Almost an "unschooling" experience. If we keep the psych involved as the person monitoring DD's progress I may be able to comfortably back off. It might even be a good cleansing option for me after everything I have been through fighting for her. I don't know if I am justifying, rationalizing or just desperate to find a way to make the local option doable. DH is very, VERY angry about the way DD and I were treated by the director so he is not even considering #2 a viable option at this point.

If #3 were the more local option I would probably be feeling the same way about them as I am about #2. The school psych and director both seemed sincere in their interest in meeting DD's needs. I know that's not enough,though, especially with the other areas of concern. It's interesting that #2 didn't express any concern about whether or not they could meet DD's needs, only about whether I could actually accept being 100% hands off and letting them have free reign.

DD has liked each school. Whichever she visited last was her favorite. Now she is suddenly all upset about the idea of leaving the public that has made our lives so miserable. She is clearly overwhelmed and I don't think she is a good source of info. I think she could be comfortable, to a degree anyway, with any of the 3. Shlepping back and forth and being away from everything at home would grate on her. Being in a school with kids bouncing off the walls would grate on her. Being in a school that intentionally pushes her out of her comfort zone so that she can grow from it would grate on her. That's just the reality.

For so long I knew who I was fighting and what I was fighting for. I was sure we wanted the 2E school but once I heard there was a possibility of a local option the idea of uprooting DD became so much harder. Last year I had thought lovely little private plus services provided by the district could be our best option. At this point, though, I think her needs are too great. If she can become independent through voice-to-text or keyboarding and become a more comfortable, fluent reader it could be an option later but not now. Psych, consultant and lawyer all say it's not really feasible at the point. It has to be one of these specialized programs. No one has uncovered another option.

If school is the only option, I'd lean strongly toward #1. But if homeschooling is something you would consider, I'd be considering it if I were in your position.

Given what you've said, I suspect that your DH's reaction is partially a potentiated one given the stress you've all been under, but even so, I'd consider that a HUGE red flag.


Shouldn't they be reassuring you that you'll be COMFORTABLE enough to be more hands off with her there?? It just strikes me as beyond bizarre that the director was so hostile about your involvement. I'm a bit paranoid after my own experiences in academia, probably, but I'm wondering if this person has any friends within the local district which would explain some insider knowledge from a perspective other than yours... :ahem:

If so, that person is potentially COMPLETELY toxic. That's what my gut says, anyway. I think that your DH is right to view that situation with deep misgivings.

If you did #1, could you commit to TRYING it for a year? Until Christmas?

In spite of the obvious things that you'd lose in doing that, maybe it's time to consider some of the possible GAINS, too-- like a closer relationship with grandparents? The possibility of a much wider pool of peers from which to draw activities and friendships? Broader availability of appropriate extracurriculars (given a more urban setting)?

I have to agree with your husband about choice #2. I bet the evil principal and the dictator at the #2 school are friends. I'd check Facebook and twitter.

Just don't go near #2. Any school that thinks that they know everything and parents could not offer ANYTHING useful to the process of educating any child (let alone your child), nor could any outside professionals is just scary SCARY territory. Even without their attitude towards you and your DD when you were there.

Homeschool would still make most sense to me. Or otherwise #1 with DH visiting as much as possible.

When we had only one child my DH commuted to work 4 days a week for about 18 months and really it worked very well, yes I went a bit nuts when his flight home got delayed on a Friday night, but honestly the level of routine and structure it gave the weeks was quite good for us and we were SO focused on family time when he was home, in a way we often fail to be now.

Many families have a parent working FIFO and make it work (not always I am sure). Although you are talking about you and your DD being the ones that come and go from the family home it's still a pretty common dynamic for Dad to be less present during the week. Even adoring & involved dads. I grew up with a family whose dad worked FIFO for nearly two decades and was an exceptional father and husband, marriage still going strong into retirement, children grown into beautiful adults with great relationships with both parents. In fact it worked so well that the mother was quite appalled when he was pushed into a desk job at home, though they seem to have adapted to that too. It's not a lifestyle most people dream of - but that doesn't prevent you from making it work, and really you have far more control over making the outside of school life work than you have control over what school does.

If homeschool is out and these are your options then I say choose the only possible school option and put your amazing skills and energy into making the lifestyle work - it will be a far easier battle than what you've just lived through. NONE of your cons for option #1 are about the school directly.

Also, with regards to extra curriculars, in a big city there should be a variety of flavours of dance or music theatre available to choose from. We actually found it easier to find options with different "feels" in a bigger city. Sure you might be more likely to find the dance school full of pushy parents, but there should equally be a whole school of parents who don't want to touch that other school with a barge pole...

Are there more museums (with classes), think about the things that are easier parenting a child in a city. Moving from a highly urban area to a very suburban area was really hard for me to adjust to as a parent - for starters there was literally not ONE decent playground in walking distance, let along the 3-4 I was used to, with a handfull of AWESOME parks within a few minutes drive. When no one has yards and everyone needs to entertain their kids it can actually be easier to find ways to keep a child busy. Well that was my experience anyway.

Is there anyplace between to live, so that DH has an hour commute one way, and you and DD have it in the other direction? (Are there trains or buses? Gosh, I hope so.) Also not ideal, but keeps the family together more...

I totally get why homeschooling is not a good fit; you need specialized services for the LDs, for sure. Is there something that can be patched together, though? That is, you homeschool the parts you could do, but you have professional services for the LDs and/or trained college/grad students come to your home (at district's expense) to do the tutoring/schooling for the parts where she would need that? (It only occurs to me because that is one possible model for some autism schooling around here; it can work, though it puts a large burden on the parent to organize the enterprise.)

Thinking of you, knowing you will do the right thing because you are intrepid,
DeeDee

If DH is a professor and has that flexible schedule than making the commuting work should be doable. He could do one really long day and then one shorter, the rest at home and still be there more for DD than being gone all week. Also most large cities have lots of so so called bedroom communities where people commute - both princeton and even Philly are considered that for nyc and that can be a 2 hour train ride and some people do that everyday..

I agree the concern about reuniting based on progress is worrisome. And would add stress. I like DeeDee' idea of just hiring people to provide what she needs, and if you are fighting with the district it might be cheaper then the private so until you get paid a better option.

And dont get so stressed about the big city - it just looks big on the outside - you end up creating your own pockets of community - yours would initially be shaped by school. And sure there are professional dance places but there are plenty which cater to kids who jut want to dance. You can absolutely find both.

Change is always scary if you approach it that way - it can also be a big adventure. Sounds like the reality of separation is what is scaring everyone - - so figure out how to not separate.

DeHe

I really appreciate everyone's input. It is really helpful. Obviously the unanimous voice here is the 2E school and find a way to get DD and DH more time together. That's the decision that I "owned" for months and fought so hard to get the district to approve. Interestingly not one person who knows us in RL has supported this option. Not one. It's an interesting dynamic. I realize that I have not shared as much with them about the 2E journey as I have here. Some of them understand the situation intellectually but they haven't experienced it first hand the way so many of you have. They can't relate to the feeling of relief I got talking to the folks at the 2E school and having them understand without having to be educated. They just can't relate...

On the other hand they know us. They have seen DD and DH together and know what kind of special relationship they have. (Unfortunately DH is the Dad that causes a lot of grief for other Dads. Because of his flexible schedule he is very visible. When DD was a baby he was constantly approached by other fathers with the opening line "I have XYZ degree - how can I get a gig like yours?" Over the years people have gotten used to it and he is almost considered "one of the Moms.") People just can't imagine separating them.

Yes there is a train from here to Major City. It would be an hour and a half+ on the train plus at least a 20 minute subway ride to the school. I figure DD and I could do that Monday morning if we want to have Sunday night at home and I would have to arrange for early dismissal on Fridays in order to get home without rush hour traffic. My mother splits her time between Major City and our area and drives back and forth on Tuesday and Friday. With an early dismissal we could probably arrange for her to drive us up Friday afternoons so DD could have a full weekend up here. This past year her dance class was on Fridays which helped me to think this could work. Her class has been moved to Mondays, though, so I would have to find a new studio in Major CIty. Do-able just one more loss for her...

A month or so ago we met with former DSS who had been so helpful last year but who moved to neighboring excellent district as their DIrector of Pupil Personnel Services. Before district agreed to OOD we were exploring ALL options including relocating to any district within an hour's drive of DH's university. DSS explained that no public school could meet DD's needs. Their hands are tied - they just can't provide the services that a kid with DD's profile would need. He also said he didn't see the benefit of relocating because even he who recognized these needs wouldn't be able to jump to OOD - we would have to start from the beginning again. If we give up residency in our district we will lose at least a year while new district starts from the beginning. He ended the meeting by saying if DD was his child he would do whatever he had to in order to get her to the 2E school. Pretty telling - huh?

The closer we get to Major City the more atmospheric the cost of living. I did look into renting a studio apartment closer to Major City but the cost of even the most basic rental plus maintaining our residency here plus commuting (even 1 way - it would be worse if DD and DH both had to commute) is just not feasible.

DH has pointed out that if he were the one looking at weekdays in Major City it wouldn't be such a big deal. I have been offered the opportunity to live there a number of times and it just makes me uncomfortable. Yes I will do it - I just have to be convinced it is really the best option. Prior to these 2 more local options being suggestedI I had been thinking of it as the only option. That made it easier to consider.

It's not just they can't relate to what you are considering - just he act of considering will make some people feel judged, unconsciously or consciously they think you are doing something they would never consider so they are giving you all the reasons why it's a bad idea. Lots of people thought we were nuts - we thought choosing a yard and a big kitchen over my DS never having peers or learning anything in school and still having to be there for 7 hours was nuts. but since most of our "friends" would not see him as he really was because they felt it said something about their kids or their parenting. We chose his sanity over our comfort.

Cost is always an issue - and your attachment to your current home - but also how long she will need this school. Everyone here always says don't plan long term because things change but your situation is different - living a part for a year or two with hope of mainstreaming her is very different than if she will need this school long term. Because if this is where she needs to be until she graduates HS, then selling and moving and having DS commute is the only feasible option that keeps the family together. But you don't have to decide that now, you could try the school, make sure it is what you hoped it would be and then relocate.

And I apologize if this is overstepping, feels like I am psychoanalyzing you, but it seems to me that having won what you wanted for DD, suddenly your DH and you are getting cold feet for what it will mean for you both.

DeHe

With DH splitting his time in both places as work schedule allows, that starts to sound kind of okay, though still a massive adjustment.


Yep. That's a professional opinion to be factored in. But not the only opinion.

When I suggested the "live between" thing, I had forgotten about maintaining residence to keep the OOD deal. How much does 2E school cost outright? Could one potentially live between as one household, pay the school, and thereby keep everyone together? Do they have any kind of financial aid? Just trying to consider all possibles.


Why? Because he would be the one doing the commute, and could read on the train?

Sounds like he is in favor of this plan, despite being apart?

Pemb, one thing nobody has discussed yet is YOU. Do you have a work life or other activities that will be disrupted? You do get to factor in here.

DeeDee

Very true. My mom once said, "if you hate it, you can quit." Useful to remember as you dive into something big, no matter which option you choose.

DeeDee

2E school is $50k per year - no financial aid. Parents have been "ridiculously successful" in getting it paid for by Major City dept of ed. They have only been open 3 years and next year is the first they are expecting families to enroll their kids and commute the way we are considering. When we were in for our interview they told us the previous day another commuting family was in (same state, though, but traveling almost as far as we would from neighboring state.) They also said that the next week they were expecting a family in from Switzerland. We met one parent from another neighboring state but I assume that family lived in "normal" commuting distance and the kid went home every evening. While the tuition is high it is not too far off what super high income families are paying for private schools there. It is way, WAY more than private school tuition here though. Not an option to pay it out of pocket...

DH is dead set on the 2E school. He was REALLY angry yesterday at the way DD and I were treated. I am willing to be treated badly if that's the price to be paid for getting DD what she needs. He is less willing to see his wife treated badly to achieve that. Does that make sense? He is quite comfortable in Major City and would have no problem with the weekly commute. He would actually love to spend time living there - as an art professor there are endless ways for him to spend his time productively. In a weird way it would also be easier for him to deal with living with his mother in law than for me to live with my mother. None of this is insurmountable - just uncomfortable.

Dealing with DD's situation has been my full-time job. I have many friends and a good support network but that is less important than getting DD what she needs. I have quite a few friends in Major City but I can't expect any of them to drop what they are doing to help me settle in and feel comfortable.

Going to the 2E school would mean signing a one year contract. All but $2500 refundable by September 1. All but $5000 by October 1. After that the contract is locked. We can't just say "Sorry. Not working. Changed our minds."

My thinking is along the lines of "Where can she be this time next year?" This past school year was a total waste of time. She made some progress with reading but as far as we can see none as far as math is concerned. My hope was the focus would be getting her up to speed on keyboarding and/or voice-to-text. They so utterly dropped the ball on the AT stuff, though, that she only had a few weeks of limited instruction with her iPad. That's where looking at local options came from. If either of the local options can focus intently on getting her independent in terms of some form of writing (by hand, keyboard or dictation) and stronger in terms of her reading then next year we may have more options available to us. We could have a better idea of whether lovely little private could be an option. Or homeschooling. Or transferring to a different school district. Right now those options won't work. But since this is the focus this year the 2Eness is less of an issue than it might be in future years. I am sure cold feet is part of it but its not the only thing. At least I don't think it is...

Sounds as though you *could* say, we'll try this for a year, and see how we are all doing as a family at the end of that year.

You wouldn't go back to public schools where you are anyhow, I am thinking, but after a year you will know in your bones whether 2E school is worth the effort, or not, and what DD needs then. The needs will change, that is certain.


No, but you could say "this is the only year we're doing this; it was an experiment; off to try the next thing." It would not be a permanent move; it would be a trial.


Does 2E school have specialties in this area? Because I agree; once you've remediated the core issues, other placements would become possible, though I find it likely that she will need some kinds of support for a while, and understanding by teachers and admins for the long term.


True. But in #2, you have no guarantee that they would do what you think she needs. Would #3 work properly on AT use and keyboarding etc.? Do they have a lot of kids who need that?


I get your point and I'm with you here: for us, the disabilities were biggest in early elementary, and the giftedness took a back seat. At some point around late 4th-5th, the giftedness started driving the bus for DS (disability still a huge factor but more like a co-factor). The remediation should be a serious priority.

Yet-- to what extent does your DD need gifted peers? Is that important to her, or not? How about instruction at her level-- will she be sad or depressed if that doesn't happen, or okay to just do school and participate? This is so kid-dependent.

DeeDee

DD is a highly social kid. She wants to be with other kids and has learned to "leave my vocabulary at home." Yesterday at the intake interview she would NOT show director her vocabulary or knowledge base. "It was great. I loved all of it. I can't think of anything in particular. It was all just great." REFUSED to show any of her skills. I thought that was really interesting.

In both local schools she would be at the low end of multi-age classrooms. Since there will be peers 3-4 grades above her in the class I think she may have the opportunity for some gifted support even if the schools are not really designed for it. If the whole class is talking about a particular topic it won't be odd for her to explore it in a more advanced way. Of course the 5th or 6th grade peers may not be operating at grade level but that's a different story.

Another consideration - and I appreciate you giving the chance to think out loud here - is to go for option #3 since it's the school the district recommends. Since this year can focus on her LD issues it would not be a great sacrifice. If/when it doesn't work (and with those kids bouncing off the wall it is hard for us to imagine it working... ) we say "Not only is the district unable to meet her needs you were also unable to select an appropriate OOD placement. Now we do it our way. Now she goes to the school that specializes in kids with her profile. " They will have absolutely no defense left. We will have cooperated and tried it their way. That school seems sincere about trying to meet her needs. We will need to pin them down more specifically on their AT program and have the psych weigh in on the effect of those "distracting" kids but it's possible that this is the one year where it could be ok to try. The biggest drawback would be if 2E school filled up and we lost her spot before we could enroll her. If we did it this way I would also be convinced that we tried literally everything before uprooting her. Psychologically I think that's important.

Hmmmm.


Did you get to observe classrooms in #3? Are the ED kids mixed into the classrooms, or working in pullout situations? How does the school handle the mix of anxious kids with ED kids (who sometimes tend to be explosive and seem frightening to a kid who's anxious)?

Your DD's history of anxiety may make #3 a challenging placement in that regard. If she found the ADHD kids distracting on her visit, that seems important; how well will she actually learn in this environment? If you are thinking of next year as "the super-productive year where she masters AT and gets her math and reading on track" then a distracting or scary environment would be a non-starter. What did you see on the visit?

I'm not skeptical yet, BTW, just asking the question.


OTOH, you just spent two godawful years trying to make schools work. There is something to be said for shooting for the placement you and DH deem most likely to succeed at this point. Whether the distance means it really won't succeed is not mine to guess... but you don't really want another year of poor fit. (I hope your DD doesn't think this is all her fault somehow...)


I know she's anxious (weighs against uprooting); but kids usually bounce into new situations better than adults do. Assuming you can find a new dance studio, and that a few friends will be found in the new school, and that old friends can be visited on weekends-- does the possibility of school actually fitting mitigate the (presumably temporary) stress of uprooting and the (longer term) logistical burden? Would school fitting lessen her personal stress at all?

Again, I'm not trying to argue for #3, just asking the question. Let me know if you want me to stop poking at you...

DeeDee

Please poke away! Your insights are invaluable!

As I said no one in real life can truly understand the situation. I am relying heavily on input from the folks here. I hope no one will be shy about telling me their true opinions on this. I am truly looking for as much input as I can get.

By the way all 3 schools say that they do not accept explosive or aggressive kids. #3 has several kids with selective mutism. They also have a special program for highly anxious kids who are trying to transition back from homebound tutoring situations. DD's anxiety therefore would be far from the most extreme. DD came home saying that she "made a friend" in just the one day. Apparently one of the disruptive kids hadn't taken his medication on the day she visited so his behavior was supposedly worse than usual. As one of my RL friends pointed out ADHD kids are everywhere - they are probably even more likely at spec ed placements. She could experience the same sort of behavior at either of the other school too. But yes, what we saw when we visited #3 concerned us. A lot.

Is your daughter the type that might feel more comfortable if she spent some time learning about the issues other students have?

I know there are books at our library with titles like "My friend has ADHD"

Putting my hand up as another whose child was in a very different place by 4-5 grade. In fact mid yr 5 we moved her from a high end private school, where she'd had amazing support, to the local public, where she got absolutely no support at all. While academically she's no longer progressing at the speed she was at the private (making double the typical progress of her normal peers yr 3-5, in all areas), she is keeping up mostly ok. She still has issues, she's going to have life long issues, but its different to what lower primary was like.

Now I'm guessing that maybe somewhere you've talked about why you can't possibly homeschool, I find it hard to search on my phone sorry. But I'm unconvinced that you may not be the best teacher your child could have. My eldest is far from PG, but she is gifted, with extremely poor WM, dyslexia, CAPD & Aspergers. When she was 7, in yr 2, and still hadn't mastered the alphabet I didn't feel like I knew how to help, so homeschooling never really occurred to me, but looking back I was the most important reading teacher she had, that and TIME. I had no idea about phonics, I didn't know any of the decoding rules at all (no wonder I had such trouble learning to read and spell myself!), I had to learn how to teach reading, and I'm pretty sure I could teach almost any kid to read now if I had to. My interventions with math made far more difference than the special Ed she was receiving. Yes school put in a lot of effort and absolutely helped her, but I don't believe she would have made the progress she made without me and I do believe we could have gotten to the same place without the school. This is my child who took three (incredibly stressful) years to learn the most basic literacy skills: reliably recognizing the whole alphabet and being able to name by sound and name, plus reading readers to about end of K / mid yr 1 level took her until end of yr 2, mos of the progress in yr 2. By end of year 4 she was reading at yr 6-8 level (for non fiction), but still couldn't spell. By mid yr 6 her reading is years ahead, her spelling is supposedly age normal, her reading aloud still isn't great... I could not ever have imagined how far she's come 4 years ago, when I was battling daily for her to even look at the page of a book.

My second child has a hand writing disability, last year I was told to be happy if she grew up able to sign her name and tick boxes, and that she'd need full time keyboarding by yr3 at the latest. Last week she saw the OT again and she's now writing not just ahead of age, but ahead of grade (she's skipped) for speed, neatness, proportion. Her pen control is 2.2 SDs above age. She'll probably still need keyboard provisions as she may never have the strength for producing volumes at speed. But if it had been left to her teachers or even the best OT in our city, the conclusion was that her problems were either unimportant (teacher) or unfixable (children's OT and adult hand specialist OT). She can write now because I was determined to teach her and because she's HG+... Her hands haven't improved much at all and probably never will.

I'm not saying my kids' problems are the same as your DD, or on the same scale, but only that every day I am more convinced there is no-one more likely to understand or subsequently overcome their issues than me. We don't homeschool either of them right now, for various reasons, though we are getting ever closer to homeschooling our middle girl, but we absolutely are the ones most responsible for remediating their problem areas. Even at the awesome private school, with all the resources, neither of them could have made the progress they have without what I researched and implemented a home.

TIME and retular practice with a smart person who is always analyzing and thinking outside the box about what might help change the current pattern/problem is not to be underestimated.

Personally, if I was even considering spending $50k/year on a school, and having to move to go to it, I'd just do homeschooling and hire a few tutors and enroll her in some local educational programs. Of course, I live in a state with a MASSIVE amount of homeschooling going on, so there'd be a large amount of help/support/programs available.

It's something we considered before DS9 got into the charter school.

Also, I can't remember, school option #3 - is this where they also send the kids they label "ED"? If so, just go ahead and strike that off your list. It will be a terrible time for your daughter w/her anxiety.

UPDATE

We met with DD"s psych today. She said that she had spoken to the SW from scary school #2. She let them know that any school where DD is placed will need to have an open door policy and be completely transparent about their program. Psych tried to explain how damaging her prior school experiences had been. After we filled her in on exactly how our intake interview went she was completely appalled and told us to remove them from consideration. She will now likely have to engage in some damage control with DD after just that brief experience.

We laid out the pros and cons of both the 2E school and the (somewhat) local spec ed school. I asked her about my thinking that the next year really needs to focus on rehabilitating the LD issues and working on getting DD independent in some form of writing. She agreed. While the 2E school is the obvious best choice academically all the problems related to uprooting DD make it less inviting.

So the decision looks like we will give the spec ed school a try. We are not - in our minds anyway - committing for the whole year. We will do everything we can to set up a situation where DD can be successful but if it becomes clear that it is not meeting her needs in any way we will immediately pull the plug and pursue the 2E school. Assuming they still have a spot for her we would then be able to do the separation with total confidence that we did everything possible to keep her home. I think that will make a difference.

So crossing our fingers that we will be moving on to a better situation. Crossing many more body parts hoping that a year from today DD is independent reading and writing and we have a handle of the math issues so that we can better evaluate what she needs moving forward. The insights of everyone here have been very helpful - thank you. Knowing that many of you only started leading with the giftedness in late 4th -5th grade has taken some of the pressure off. The idea of the pressure being placed on her ability to perform in order for the family to reunite added an exceptional extra perspective to the idea of separating.

Now hopefully onto healing and moving forward...

Pemb, I hope it's great. You have certainly done your due diligence! And I think your DD is learning that you won't let it rest until problems are fixed, which is a fine, fine lesson.

DeeDee

I can really sense the relief in having made your decision after so much thought and investigation! It's a relief, sometimes, just to decide.

What a good plan; the one which minimizes the "what if's" down the road.

Good luck for a much better year! I hope it works out really well.

I think you've made the right decision, and I agree that it sounds like a great plan. I hope it works out well for you, and even more, for your DD. She has been through so much - you guys deserve a break.

If she is busing home from this school, you might want to talk with her about what she can "accomplish" on the bus. That varies a lot from kid to kid, and it could be getting all her homework done, or socializing, or disappearing into a book and having her "alone" time for the afternoon so she's charged up for after-school activities when she gets home. But having spent some time thinking about what the bus ride might be like and what she can do about it seems like a worthwhile thing to do over the summer.

This is great news!

Option #3 for a year may make all the difference. Still wondering if you can get references?

P
This sounds like a good plan, and better like DeeDee said, you did your due diligence and this is a reasoned decision, it leaves you with options if it doesn't quite work, and prioritizes your family. And if it does work well, then you got what was needed without all the disruption. Even better, you can now REST. The decision is made. So no over worrying - I would say no worrying but we are parents, that would be impossible!!!

DeHe

So glad you have a decision!

Brief update: A number of issues came up over the summer that made it look less and less likely that the spec ed school recommended by the district would actually work. After much angst and delays on the part of the district we finally had an IEP meeting yesterday, after both local district and spec ed school started for the year. We went into the meeting totally believing that it was just a procedural necessity to pave the way to a settlement agreement concerning the 2E school.

Total surprise - the district and the spec ed school both stepped up offering any and all accommodations necessary to make it an appropriate placement. We could not believe it.

As for the issues discussed here while making the decision -

AT - DD will receive direct instruction 5 days per week plus push in support and participate in the daily computer period with the rest of the class. The district will also provide an AT consultant to oversee implementation of the program. DH and I will be trained on helping her with the iPad as well.

Travel time - They will reimburse for the cost of our providing transportation to eliminate the long (45minute-1 hour+) on the bus. By private car the trip should be 20-25 minutes instead. Time consuming for me but much better for DD.

2E/giftedness - DD will be in 2 reading groups (one for decoding level, one for comprehension level). She will receive 1-1 instruction on her high level audio books. She will have special projects in lieu of worksheets for homework. She will be placed with the higher level (i.e. 5th-6th grade level) students in the 2nd-6th grade mixed class. She will work with middle schoolers as appropriate for social studies or science. District will pay for an outside educational consultant with an understanding of 2E to oversee the program. School director will seek 2E training for the staff as needed.

There will be 4 students with 1 spec ed teacher plus speech and OT for the fine motor issues. They have to work out a plan for addressing the "bouncy" kids that will be a distraction for DD. We were clear about the psych's position that we cannot risk another failed placement. They all seemed to be taking this quite seriously. DD will not start until all services are in place so she will be home for 2 more weeks. I asked the district several times what their "Plan B" would be and the director of pupil personnel services did not answer. I think we all know that with all they are throwing at the placement and everything we went through to get to this point it will be a direct move to the 2E school if this doesn't work.

So for now at least DD and I get to stay home. Hopefully she will get all she needs at this school. If not we and the district will have tried everything so we will all know the 2E school and our being separated as a family is something that we will have to do.

Wpw Pemberley - that all sounds wonderful!!! I hope that the school follows through with everything they have agreed to.

Hope you had a relaxing end of summer too - enjoy the next two weeks with your dd!

polarbear

Holy cow, Pemberley. Isn't it weird when you push and push and then the door falls open?

I hope they follow through on every promise for you.

DeeDee

Great news!!!! Congrats!

Wonderful, Pemberley!

Nice to read an encouraging update after all you have been through!

Wow! I so hope this is exactly how it seems and is a wonderful year for your family!

Happy-happy!

Here's hoping this is the solution you need!