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    Joined: Feb 2011
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    Oh, but {ping-pong}* is frivolous. So that doesn't count. Besides {EG/PG child} also {plays ping-pong} AND earns straight A's... AND worked at a south American orphanage project while doing distance research work for the local flagship university their last three summers in high school and was invited to play at a youth orchestra event at Carnegie Hall.


    Nobody {plays ping-pong} at Carnegie Hall. Hmph.

    Besides, there are a lot more of these kids around here than there are {ping-pong champ trophies} to go around.

    So the problem is that those PG kidlets are making it so hard to compete without making things up, basically... wink


    *ping-pong here being a metaphor for pretty much ANY activity:

    AKC dog agility
    barrel racing
    marksmanship
    knitwear design
    modern dance
    playing the marimba, accordion, mandolin, ocarina, pan flute, or didgeridoo
    volunteering at local homeless shelters, daycares, senior centers or libraries
    soccer
    track
    volleyball
    golf
    skiing
    .
    .
    .


    No. Chess, piano/violin/viola/cello, fencing/lacrosse/rowing, exotic/spectacular international humanitarian/research experiences, 99th percentile test scores and a 4.5+ GPA are what matter.

    Everyone knows that only children who measure up are worthy. The rest of them are being given pity-trophies for being participants, that's all. Everyone knows that those are mere consolation prizes, though...

    (Yes, tongue is FIRMLY in cheek here.) I'm exaggerating, of course... but sadly, there is an element of truth to this, as parents close to either the college admissions process or to other high school parents can probably attest.

    So being "a great kid" doesn't necessarily earn even parental approval and pride in this kind of community. Sadly.








    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    I'd also like to see nationality quotas on admissions to elite private universities eliminated, because it unduly penalizes smart foreigners.

    Sure, just cut off all federal research funding dollars first.

    Last edited by madeinuk; 05/10/13 12:08 PM.

    Become what you are
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    ... or... fund all universities adequately and remove ALL international restrictions on attendance and make tuition completely uniform globally.

    (sure... that'll happen, right?)

    In all seriousness, though, I think that educational underwriting is a different animal than research monies from tax dollars. Different mission-- the one is about having a well-educated population to contribute to one's national economy, and the other is about innovation and discovery.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    It is easy to complain about the "holistic admissions" process at our most selective universities, but a growing population in a country where the admissions process has become increasingly nationalized, while the number of seats at Harvard et al. has stayed constant, will lead to more qualified applicants being rejected, no matter how one defines qualified. Let's see if I can remain philosophical a decade from now smile.


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    That is the trick. smile

    This all looked a lot different when it wasn't personal, for sure.

    It's hard to remain sanguine about it when you know that your choices, even as the parent of a PG kid, are to "push-parent maybe to a level which isn't healthy for your own child" (in other words, to play the game, since you have a lot of raw talent to work with, should be successful, right?) or to let your child follow his/her OWN natural trajectory, using him/her as a guide to what you should be doing for them educationally and as children...

    but knowing in the back of your mind that because of the arms race thing, you're probably making sure that they are destined to look "great-- like all the rest."

    That's not really reflective of ability, and it does rankle to be faced with those two choices-- play the game, or look average because everyone else is willing to go there.

    We've been burned repeatedly by refusing to pad DD's resume when she applies for awards, etc. We know that those who are winning are doing so by being less scrupulous/ethical about it. We know-- because we know the kids and the parents involved, and we in some cases are even familiar with their vitae. Let's just say that a lot of what is on JUNIOR's vitae actually belongs on mom or dad's.

    Science fair projects-- oh my lord. It's no wonder that DD's acid rain and demineralization project conducted independently at 10yo didn't raise any eyebrows-- because it was ASSUMED that she wasn't the one doing the experimental design and analysis work. It was "par for the course" unless you stopped and thought about the fact that she really DID do it herself. THEN, it becomes amazing.

    IF we played the game the way other parents around are doing, we'd have a kid who looked amazing in several ways. But we don't. If I volunteer to help her school, or to do something for one of her youth activities, it doesn't go on HER vita. But I'm very obviously in the minority. So much so that other people who work with youth have even commented on it to us-- that they WISH that there were a way to make it clearer to those handing out scholarships and awards that our DD is... authentic, heartfelt, and honest in her achievements on paper and off. We are hard-core and old-school this way. There's a right way to raise kids, IOO, and teaching them to exaggerate and obfuscate to make themselves look better ought to have no place in it.

    It makes me mad as heck that this kind of thing is apparently a detriment to gaining opportunities these days. It also makes me pretty sad as a citizen that we're selecting for people who seem to be ethically... adventurous. Worse, a fair number of them genuinely fail to appreciate that there is any difference between the two practices. (That one I find seriously horrifying.)









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    First, I think schools that your DD may be interested in, MIT, Caltech, are all about the scores and her science projects.

    And ping pong is serious enough for a girl on the National team to get into Harvard this year.

    I do not know why you are fretting about it Howler. My good childhood friend is seriously PG, did her undergrad in Physics and then her PhD in nuclear engineering. The jobs were handed to her on "silver platters". It was a bit of an issue because her fiance was in the same program and not getting the offers that she was. She is just amazingly brilliant and into science. She has had an long, successful career, in that she can change direction within the company, which she does every 7 years from boredom and they totally support her. She hasn't made billions but has the life she likes and work that satisfies her.

    I had a summer job and had to run a small city Canadian day beauty pageant for the parade. I had 15-16 year olds enter (I was 19). I got some free meals for them, we did a local fashion show and got some prizes. I arranged for make up and the lot for the pageant. The girl who won was so excited. A real lovely girl. She had scars from burns on much of her torso, that I noticed when they did changes. I gave her a ride home one night and couldn't figure out where we were going because she directed me behind a strip mall, where I saw a small shack. This kid had very little and appreciated what I created so much. I was happy that she won the contest.

    Your kid will have so much opportunity and probably better options than Harvard or Yale. Let the ping pongers get the spots. There may be a bunch of kids in that lot that will so appreciate their chance at to make something of themselves when they don't have a lot. I am not saying there are not a bunch of rich kids. DH found out that classmates paid millions to get their son in and he didn't get accepted. Harvard has some standards.

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    I have no doubt that the Ivies have high standards. If they COULD choose, they WOULD be choosing the authentic item over the faux-awesome students. No question. They do winnow the field as best they can, so no total slacker/doofus kids are likely to be admitted. Granted.

    Yeah, see, I was one of those kids that came from pretty much nothing-- so it makes me all the madder, I think.

    My parents didn't KNOW enough to play the game, such as it existed then (mostly it was about counseling kids to seek out leadership experience and things that look good on their vitae if they have choices, YK?).

    But this-- meaning what my DH and I see other parents doing, even doing fairly brazenly at this point-- is NUTS.

    I'm not especially worried about my DD. She has advantages enough that I don't need for her to have them all-- I'm even okay with her not having a few that should rightfully have been hers if not for said game.

    No, what makes me REALLY hot are the parents at our SES who do go after ALL of it like there's no tomorrow, and like ethics don't matter-- only "winning" does. I'd really like it if some of the kids who need those opportunities had them instead of parents-- er, kids-- who know how to work the system the best.

    These are the parents who elbow their way (oops-- I mean their kid's way... of course... HA) onto youth activities/boards/councils, etc. and then the kid shows up for MEETINGS, but never "work sessions," never mind actual WORK. Oh, sure-- they may SIGN UP to do work... but guess who never seems to actually show up for what they sign on for? Still goes onto their resume and records, believe me. Scholarship committees are often none the wiser, and supervisors are seldom permitted to say what they ACTUALLY know is going on to the decision-making committees deciding awards/scholarships. frown We have had people at the local, county, and state levels all apologize to us because they KNOW that our DD was the top candidate... but she didn't look all that different from two or three others on paper, and they weren't allowed to tell what they knew about the veracity of what was there on paper.

    Helpful tip for the unethical tiger parenting aficionado, that. Much time savings to be had there, and you can still claim all that the group does within the community if you opt for only "showcase" and "photo-op" activities that take less time! Let the uninitiated or ethically fettered take on all the time-consuming, thankless scut work! Yay!

    My kid who actually has a great sense of personal responsibility and ethics is ALWAYS the one asking if the organizers need "extra help setting things up" or doing other things behind the scenes. Because she isn't looking to LOOK GOOD, but to actually DO GOOD.

    The upshot, though, is that she winds up not having enough time to do (at least on paper) as much as those kids whose parents are the ones actually doing half of the crap on their vitae. These are the parents who sell cookies etc. and put together science fair projects when their kids are little-- and believe me, it doesn't stop there.

    They are ALSO the ones writing essays (or paying someone else to), proposals, competition speeches, and still doing school and science fair projects when their kids are high school aged. I mean, suuuuuuuuure your kid did {high-tech thing that can only happen in your research lab or hospital, or workplace} and then put together this glossy presentation about it... SURE. Which is why said high school senior can't answer any questions about it beyond what you-- oops, I mean the child-- wrote on the PowerPoint slides, and why s/he stumbles over every technical term in them. Hey-- didn't I see that one image in a recent publication with your name on it? smirk

    It's really obnoxious. The kids it TRULY hurts are the HG+ kids in the middle two quartiles. Well, and potentially their own kids, as the article Bostonian posted pointed out (and we do see some of THAT here, too in our town's sky high adolescent suicide and mental health hospitalization rates), who are under tremendous pressure on the few things that their parents CANNOT game/control. I really do know a few parents that have doctor-shopped for a diagnosis that they could use to get their child more time on College Board tests, justifying it by pointing out 10-20% increases in scores with double time and intensive coaching... Yup. They discuss which doctors are loose with diagnoses which are helpful. No, not about their kids' PROBLEMS... because they laugh about their kids not HAVING problems. That's what they ADMIT to. That is just disgusting. (And no, I do not count such people as friends, and there is NO WAY that I tell them about anything that my DD does, because all of it seems like a 'challenge' to them to somehow match it on paper... but I do hear them talk, and as an introvert who is well buttoned-up most of the time, people have always told me pretty much ANYTHING. ) DD hears some of her peers LAUGH about cheating-- and yes, on the standardized tests, too. They seriously don't see anything wrong with it, and clearly they got those notions from their parents, I'd say.

    High achievement, I'm all for. There are some young people in this area who are remarkable athletes, scholars, and musicians. They are rare, but not vanishingly so (as one might expect in a town with a high rate of terminally-degreed people). It's the grasping/scrabbling horde that I object to.


    The lower SES but high ability kids, now they are the ones that most need the individual scholarships and such in order to garner reasonably good educational opportunities. But they sure don't get them with these kinds of shenanigans going on. I feel VERY upset for them, and I count some of them as my friends. Their kids? They are going to get hosed.

    Not that I'm bitter. Okay-- maybe I am. But I do think that I'm not crazy to think this is way wrong.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Oh, and we also know a pageant winner who is just an all-around great kid-- whose parents also refuse to cheat their way to their DD's success. We're REALLY happy for her that she's got that scholarship $. She truly deserves it. No, she's not an academic all-star. She's not a future Olympian, and she's probably not a Miss America contestant either. But she's a good kid, and she'll have an opportunity her family COULDN'T have given her otherwise.





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    It appears that you are discussing 2 issues. Local scholarships, that appear to be lax in their due diligence and top college admission. I have friends that just went through the college process this year. One has a daughter, without "mastery" and wanted math and got a full tuition scholarship to USC. Another got turned down by Amherst and Barnard, waitlist to Princeton (legacy issue) and accepted by Columbia. The whole Barnard, Columbia thing threw me. She didn't have mastery or top, top scores but got into an IVY.

    DYS should be able to help you with scholarship issues, I would think. It seems that should be one of the things they do. Especially since your child has done so well, from an early age, in research.

    I have my tantrums and then I look for another path. Oops, did I just admit my helicopter nature? My kid is only 8. But really, that is my nature for my own path. When blocked, turn until you see another way. There is always another way.


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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
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    I'd also like to see nationality quotas on admissions to elite private universities eliminated, because it unduly penalizes smart foreigners.

    Sure, just cut off all federal research funding dollars first.

    ITA. Countries can subsidize their own citizens (or not) as they see fit.


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