Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research ? statistical info regarding depression ?

I belong to a 'grandparents raising grandchildren' forum. I commented in that forum about the success GS8 is having in school. Here is part of a reply from another poster:

Has anyone seen any statistics of depression broken down by mental ability?

I don't have any statistics, but you can try googling existential depression. I know that's common.
What the person fails to suggest is that exceptionally bright people often have exceptional coping and compensating skills.
While any form of depression of emotional turmoil should not be ignored or taken lightly, I wouldn't become overly worried about this unless you see it happening.

No, I'm not worried. I'm mildly annoyed at negative conceptions people have about GT kids. I'd like to find some good data that supports or negates the statement the other poster made, just for my own knowlege.

I'm more worried about bipolar depression since there is a genetic link for that, and there are relatives on both sides with that; but that's another thread!

I'd suggest searching in the articles on the Davidson Gifted Database. I believe I have seen an article or two supporting that statement. Maybe not a statistical statement, but a statement saying there is a risk.

My biggest problem is with the phrase "unmanageable social pressure." Huh?

I think being underchallenged can lead kids to feel out of place, even stupid and worthless because they are clearly missing something if the teacher, whom they respect, doesn't see the problem and parents don't help. I think perfectionism can lead to depression when a kid finally hits something that is actually hard.

But social pressure? I don't really buy it that social pressure is worse for GT kids than it is for any other kids. I think a lot of GT kids have a pretty healthy sense of self. They may not like the way they get treated by agemates, but I haven't heard much about GT kids suffering this sort of depression from it. Some, I'm sure, but no more than any other kid.

Hmmm...

No, you're right. I ignored the cause - just focused on the risk part of the statement. I haven't seen anything about social pressure.

It seems to play into the crummy old myth that GT kids are anti-social and unpopular. Frankly, of the very few GT people I know who seem anti-social and/or unpopular, they're usually just introverts who have chosen to limit their social contacts, and they're pretty happy that way. No depression over it.

Being with agemates instead of true peers can be pretty hard on a kid, I suppose, but nothing that can't be remedied with the right sorts of contact with true peers. It certainly not the main cause of depression among GT kids, I wouldn't think.

Of course, this is all out of my own addled brain. I may have no idea what I'm talking about...

Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about so I did a quick article search on this site, and found this one among others: http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10338.aspx

I have found the article library on this site to be a wonderful resource.

That is an interesting and powerful article. These quotes caught my attention.

"Clinical records, among the data serving as the foundation for this paper, confirmed that some highly gifted children--especially those in undifferentiated school programs with no access to like-minded peers and appropriate learning experiences--may exhibit signs of depressive disorder as early as age 7."

"Children often... do not wear it [depression] on their sleeves as adults do. Children tend to be depressed in an extremely quiet way. They often creep into their rooms or other secluded places and cry while appearing cheerful in public settings. Usually they don't look as sad, tearful, or as slowed down as depressed adults. By the time a child exhibits signs of depression for all to see, he or she is usually severely depressed."

I found the masking to be quite a disturbing trait as well.

I know I did it in high school. I suffered some perfectionist-related depression when I hit my first-ever hard class, but no one had any idea about how I was feeling.

I came out okay, but I know many kids don't.

And 7yo is so early to suffer depression! Yet another answer to offer when asked, "Why can't they just wait until 3rd grade when the one-hour-a-week pullout for GT kids begins?"

I have a history of depression. I don't know if it's connected with giftedness but both run in my family.

I had trouble as a teen, after we moved and I had to leave my beloved GT school and spend two years in a public high school. I was lonely, bullied and depressed. Eventually, I suffered some kind of mental breakdown which included phobias, panic, insomnia and hallucinations. I kept it to myself as much as I could. I never had treatment for it. I tried going to counseling in college but I was never able to build any rapport with the counselor. During college it faded to a tolerable level. I currently feel saner than I ever did when I was younger Having a supportive, understanding DH helps in a big way!

Interesting article Texas Summer. I feel this definitely would describe my own elementary school experience and behavior.

My first thoughts on reading this were Columbine, Univ of Texas, Virginia Tech, Unabomber, and there was another high school whose name I can't remember.

These were all highly intelligent kids who felt left out socially and suffered from depression. Admittedly, you only here about the extreme cases, but how many other kids feel that way and don't act out?

I went through extreme, deep, clinical depression as an adult. Ended up checking myself into a psychiatric hospital at age 27. Most of my depression stemmed from masking my feelings as a kid. Most of that was probably family, but I do know that, being smart (we didn't have the term gifted then), I caught a lot of ridicule and shaming even from adults. And, I was always a social outcast at school, neither living up to my older sister's reputation nor being a "problem - drugs, sex, alchohol" like my other older sister.

My point is that I wouldn't reject the statement out of hand. I think it has more bearing than we are inclined to give it. After all, our kids are gifted and that could never happen to them, right? I don't think it is anything to panic over, just something to keep in mind when making decisions. And, I remember from my best therapist "Depression is anger turned inward". So, I see my son angry and think hard about it.

Disclaimer: I have not yet read the article posted by Texas Summer.

Were they all highly intelligent? I know the Unabomber was, but I don't know about the others.

I know the guy from the VA Tech shootings had been diagnosed with a mental illness well before the shootings, and at least one of his teachers had feared that he would self-destruct because of the way he behaved in class. She did not say anything about being impressed with his ability or intelligence. She just got him removed from her class for being inappropriate with the other students. I read nothing about his being GT.

I don't know enough about the kids in the other two cases you mentioned to even comment. Were they GT?

I don't mean to nitpick. I just want to be sure we're not perpetuating the stereotype of the "crazy genius" if these cases don't stand up to that.

Taking those drugs sure didn't make me feel like my neural connections were increasing...I just felt kind of...flat.

I also suffered from PPD after DD was born. I don't know about you, but depressive episodes are so frightening that I worry I'll have another. Once it has happened to you, you realize how narrow the path of sanity is...

Well, just as their are psychologists who specialize in helping gifted children, there are also those that work with gifted adults.
I'm sorry this sounds so vulgar, but I can't see how a non-gifted therapist is going to help a gifted/very gifted adult.

I'm probably going to get smacked for saying that, but, oh well.

Neato

I won't be the one smacking you...

And I might smack you, but not for that.

You are right, this site has a wonderful article library. I hadn't seen the article you linked, but I think that's just what I was looking for. Thanks! Thanks to all the others with info, too.

I'm not going to smack you, but with that reasoning then a male therapist probably can't help a female, and vice versa. And maybe a therapist should have suffered from depression before being able to help someone suffering from depression?

I think the therapist needs to be very well educated for a target clientele to be effective, as well as having other qualities. JMO, and I'm not bound to staying with it.

Thanks for not smacking me!

I see your logic but I think we're comparing apples and oranges. I think if a female patient feels they will be better helped with a female dr. and vice versa, then they will.
In therapuedic realtionship the main ingredient for success is trust, IMHO.
Also, the therapist has to guide the patient to growth without being obvious. Hard to do if the patient is out-thinking the therapist.

I think the therapist would have to be very knowledgable and skilled at working with GT kids at least.

I'd certainly think GTness would be helpful in this area, but I guess I wouldn't be checking IQ scores at the door. A person who simply doesn't understand GTness, hasn't done the reading, doesn't get that GT kids are different, etc., isn't going to be able to be an effective therapist for a GT kid. It would be like trying to work with the blind without understanding that they can't see. You just can't do the job. But how they get the understanding...well, there's probably more than one way to skin that particular cat.

Well, I know my comment is somewhat predjudicial and exhibits inflexible thinking. I'm usually more open-minded. That said, I still think it takes one to know one.
I do realize this can be somewhat offensive and I apologize for that, but stand by my thought on the issue.
But like OHG, I reserve the right to change my stance based on further info.

Well I'm probably going to get smacked again, too but (oops terminal grammatical flaw!) but this IS the kind ofthing that I was referring to in my other thread (bubble bursting) when it devolved to personal history.

I hope you didn't feel too smacked back there!

I got what you were trying to say and it's very valid. If there are a million ways a kid can get into trouble, then watching my DD's thought process in action, there outta be about 10 million ways she could get into trouble.

Well as parents, we do what we can do and hope for the best!

No smacking from here, but when you are in a deep enough depression the only thing you want to know about the therapist is "how can you help me?". Or, in some cases, you don't want to know anything at all about the therapist/doctor because you are not exactly there willingly.

I think if you are going to a therapist for emotional problems it doesn't really matter at the beginning. After you've worked through some of those problems, it might start to matter. The most important thing would be that the therapist didn't shame your giftedness (which does happen, sadly). It also depends on the severity and nature of the problem. When I was in the deepest part of my depression, I didn't care at all. You don't really go "shopping" for one, you just take whatever lifeline is thrown at you. And, I certainly wasn't thinking in terms of giftedness.

If, however, you are talking about a therapist to help a gifted child adjust to a particular situation or to advise on educational options, it makes a world of difference.

And, the drugs made me, too, feel flat, which was actually better than where I had been before. Sometimes flat ain't so bad, when you consider the alternative.

Interesting thread. I can't remember how it got started but interesting thoughts.

I know. All I could think about was throwing myself in front of traffic on the freeway I could see out my window. Eating was a chore because food tasted like sand. Feeling flat was an improvement.

I wasn't really in any kind of coherent state where I could have discussed giftedness. I do think therapy can be helpful even when one is not in a crisis, though. In that case, you really need to feel that the person you are talking to understands you. How they came to that understanding is less important.

When I was 22, my medical doctor sent me to some guy, after a string of psychiatrists that weren't working, her comment :You need to go to someone you can't bullshit.
Ren

I never felt any social pressure except among my age-group.

GT kids get singled out early on by bullies.

When I got to a new school, I got picked on and called a sissy because I carried books around all the time, spent time talking to adults, spent time observing stuff, etc. That got corrected on the soccer and football fields when I deliberately repaid people in kind.

I knew one girl who was a NMF two years before me in HS whose tormentors began picking on her when she was in 2d grade and it continued into HS where the coaches put a stop to it. But it left huge scars.

In another school, there were two kids who were later NMF. One played sports and was never picked on. The other did not and was often slammed into lockers, etc. The latter told me it had been going on since Middle School.

Forgive my ignorance, what is NMF?

Here is an article on the latest research on depression.

They are at the point that they have isolated the physical cause and are looking at specific treatments.

Short synopsis - its cause by brain cell death.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/07/06/head_fake/

Sorry, National Merit Finalist.

Oh yeah, duh! (slapping self on forehead)

I was bullied mercilessly from Junior High on. Several years ago one of the bullies attempted to contact me. I was surprised how those feelings were able to resurface so vividly and instantly at just the thought of him.
He was pretty persistent and two years after he first attempted to contact me I "allowed" him to speak to me, thinking the worst.
We ended up having an awesome conversation. He gave me a very sincere and heartfelt apology. We talked on the phone for a long time. It was a good thing.

This last school year we had a bully issue crop up in second grade for DD8. Girls can be very mean. I swiftly and severly nipped it in the bud, with the school's support, it was a beautiful thing. The thing about bullies is that they don't seem to stand up well to strong opposition. Whether it be the bullied child, an adult or another child stepping in. There is also a whole lot of psychology behind the bully's behavior. I think it best if a child that is bullying can be corrected as early as possible for the child him/herself, not just the child that is being bullied.

Great article, thanks for posting. I find nueroscience thoroughly interesting. Exciting things coming in the next 5-10 years or so.

Neato,
I would love to know how you "nipped it in the bud". DS8 always seems to have at least one kid pick on him whenever he joins a group. Could you give me some advice on how to hand it?

Hi ebeth.

Be careful what you wish for.

Okay, I'd like to give you a long-term solution as well as the short term solution I used for this one instance, hope you don't mind.
Settle in, I can be longwinded, especially about things I am passionate about and preventing kids from being bullied is pretty high on that list.

I have a theory about the energy we send out to others either knowingly or unknowingly. This theory is wholly un-scientific and pretty anecdotal and metaphysical in nature which I'm sure may creep out those of you who are deeply intellectual and data-driven. sorry....

It's pretty much the whole philosophy behind "The Secret". Uh oh, hope I didn't just lose all credibility here.
Except, I'm pretty rational about it, if that makes sense.

Since you mention your son gets picked on pretty consistently when he joins a group I wonder if this theory could be applied.

I guess I can sum up by letting you know that when I was younger, the energy I was sending out was "doormat", to be simplistic and crass. I was very insecure, I felt different and since in my family different was bad, I felt that there must be something wrong with me. Not saying that's up with your son, just an example for clarity.
Bullies seem to have an uncanny natural ability to sense this and can easily figure out which kids they can take their little aggressions on who won't fight back/stand up to them. I would guess that's why I was picked on a lot.
Now, some adults still get bullied, right? In social situations, in the work place, etc.
I don't and I would guess it's because I send out a different energy. At least that's my opinion on the matter.

How I handled the specific situation with DD:

One "friend" of my daughter was telling another of the girl's friend that my DD didn't like her and didn't want to play with her. Then she was telling my DD the same about the other girl. Additionally she was attempting to convince other children not to play with DD for a variety of reasons.
Since I volunteer in the school I actually observed this behavior which was pretty much key to allowing me to actually be effective in getting involved to stop it.
I contacted the teacher and plainly let her know that while I don't expect all the kids to be friends, that this "campaigning" against my child was strictly bullying and requested that she look into it. Because this situation has ALREADY been addressed by the teacher previously, she sent it to the office.
The school took the matter very seriously and the social worker questioned the girls until she got to the bottom of it. The little girl admitted she had done all of this felt bad and apologized. The best thing the social worker did was to be understanding towards the girl who had made the mistake. There was no shaming involved and she did not get into trouble-because she had accepted responsibility for what she had done. She was told there would be a consequence if it happened again in a very matter-of-fact, non-threatening way.

One thing to keep in mind is that even though this worked out well, it could have easily gone the other way for a variety of reasons. As soon as I contacted the school and requested something be done I pretty much opened a can or worms. There were some parents who felt that I shouldn't have gone to the school. The parent of the child involved who is my "friend" was very mad and her only concern was that her child was in the principals office, she was actually enraged about this. She never considered the fact that the child had been terrorizing my DD and how this affected her.
When I went into it I knew that parents, teachers, etc. could have a very strong reaction to it, but I DIDN'T CARE. I think that's the most important thing. Bullying in unacceptable. The school policy states that. I wasn't going to stand by and tolerate it and to this day I won't make any apology for what I did, because I believe it was the right way to handle the situation, come what may. I think I would have gotten myself into trouble if I had been wishy-washy when it got uncomfortable. KWIM?

I don't know if that helps or answers your question, but I hope so. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you with your situation.

Neato

Austin - this is exactly what Dr. Ratey in his book "Spark: the revolutionary new science of exercise and the brain" in which he also addresses depression, ADHD, etc. Interesting!!!

Neato - you absolutely did the right thing! Or at least, it's what I would have done.

Very interesting. I definitely experienced this:

After reading Dr. Ratey's experiments I half-jokingly wondered if this explains the leveling out phenomenon when GT kids are not challenged. I'm almost certain, DS could have been classified as depressed in K. It took over a month for him to return to himself during that summer. Now after a somewhat bad year, it seems that his brain just doesn't work anymore. But after a few weeks of fresh air, hikes in nature, he seems to be coming around. He's so nice to be around, not as whiny, not crying at the drop of a hat, throwing fits b/c his LEGO creation fell apart ... just much more pleasant all around. Perhaps he is losing vital neuronal connections in his brain due to depression or lack of stimulation.

Neato,
Wow. You are good. You pinpointed the problem pretty dead on, with respect to that the bullies seem to have built in radar for him. And I am the scientific, data-driven type and I still agree with you wholeheartedly! My son seems to believe that to be popular, you need to be noticed... and to be noticed you need to advertise that you are a little different. (at least that is my interpretation of his actions... he likes to draw attention to himself a lot.) Maybe he is an only kid who is used to being the center of attention. Or maybe he is just so desperately in need of friends that bullies realize that withholding this gives them power over him. He doesn't project "doormat" so much because he will not back down when he is bullied, which tends to lead to more serious problems. Or at least it does with boys when you are eight and they are ten or eleven and ten inches bigger and 70 pounds heavier.

So it is very common that if he goes to a week-long day camp during the summer, at least one of the kids will start by pushing him or stealing his hat or glasses. He is a small, skinny, non-athletic, bookworm of a kid who believes he should be treated as an equal to the big boys. It think the bigger kids decide that they need to pick on him to knock him down a bit and put him in his place. Maybe boy's social hierarchy is closer to packs of wolves where dominance is given to the biggest, not the smartest. Due to his grade acceleration, he is always the smallest fish in the pond.

We also have had a similar problem as your DD, but with neighborhood kids outside of school. We have one neighborhood boy who is 11, nearly 12, who wants to be the gang leader of a group of younger kids (two boys who are the same age as my son (newly 8) and a girl who is about to turn 10). He was caught lying to another boy (10) about a broken hockey stick. The lie was that he blamed the purposeful destruction of the hockey stick on my son, and convinced the other kids to lie as well. It was seven kids saying that they saw my son break the hockey stick and my son staring at them in disbelief. Finally one older boy told on the 11 year old. He has now decided to make my son's life miserable by making sure that none of the neighborhood kids will play with him. So when my son sees kids outside and runs out the door to play, he is greeted by universal taunts and threats. I have overhead the eleven year old telling the other kids to get a baseball bat and threaten him. And I have now heard the younger kids telling each other this as reinforcement. The main problem I have is that the parents won't acknowledge this bullying. I have even had the neighbor kids yell taunts over the backyard fence when both my son and I were in the backyard and the next door parent was just standing idly by watching it all.

We live in a very small community where all the parents believe that their kids are gifted. All of the parents believe that their kids will be CEO's of companies one day, and a great deal of importance is given to learning how to be a leader. (and I think a leader is unconsciously defined as one who has power over others.) The parents all hold their kids back a year to give them an edge over other kids, so that most of the boys in my DS's 3rd grade class were turning 10 during the year. And it is almost like something out of the Stepford Wives or A Wrinkle in Time where to be unique is to be suspect. So suffice it to say that talking to the parents is an exercise in futility.

Sorry to go off on a long tirade. I was just completely captivated by the concept of "nipping" such problems in the bud and by your assertive stance to protect your DD. I'm not an overly assertive person (okay, I'm extremely timid!), but I feel the need to protect my son from this, but don't know how. What would you in this situation? I'll throw it open for any and all suggestions!

What do I do about neighborhood kids when the parents will not step in? And how do I teach my DS how to not make waves and attract bullies without telling him to hide or feel ashamed of his uniqueness? And should I move this to a new thread? (I don't want to hijack a very interesting discussion on depression! I'm new enough that I don't quite know how to do that. Can I copy over Neato's first post to go with a new thread?)

The other kids are probably afraid of the bully, too. That's why they comply with his orders not to play with your DS. I think the main problem is that one older boy, the 11 year old who is the "leader".

My brothers were bullied in a similar fashion when we were growing up. I'm sorry to say that it didn't stop until one of my brothers beat that kid to a bloody pulp in the high school parking lot. My mother was horrified, my brother was suspended and the vice principal congratulated my dad on having a son who "knows how to handle himself" <eyeroll>

I hate to say this Cathy, but while I wish it didn't have to be done, it probably had to. Remember, there are more of them than there are of us. By that I mean us as reasonable, sensitive and actions guided by moral compass.

In theory I prefer to take the high road everytime. In reality; have you ever hiked down that road? Holy cow, you can go for miles and days without every seeing another living soul.



ebeth, I'm going to p.m. you.

I saw something on bullying on TV a few years ago--one of those "spotlight on bullying" news-program things, I think. Nothing much stuck with me except a couple stray facts:

1) Kids alone are the kids who get bullied. Kids with even one friend who will stand by them are usually not worth the bully's trouble.

2) The single biggest factor for halting bullying was if someone stepped up and said "Stop it" to the bully/ies on behalf of the child being bullied. Just one kid stepping out of the mob and saying "This is not okay" stopped the bullying in the vast majority of cases--the number 85% sticks in my head, though I can't swear that's right.

This refects my experience from childhood, which is why I remembered the point, I think. I was often the one who bucked the crowd and said "That's not okay." There was no bullying in my presence.

This says to me that it's really about building a healthy feeling of community among the kids, so that kids feel like it's okay to stand up for someone. A dog-eat-dog, everyone for him/herself playground is not healthy.

One other thought:

I think there's a big difference between the bullying done by boys and that done by girls. I was much more likely to say something to boy bullies, since I knew they wouldn't hit me and hitting was really their only mode of attack. (Boys obviously wouldn't have that same assurance that I had as a girl.)

OTOH, the female "queen bees" are a lot more devious--as 'Neato can attest!--and a lot more difficult to stand up to, whether the good Samaritan is male or female.

Oh Kriston, where were you in 8th grade when I needed you.......

I was a bully magnet myself <sigh>

I wish I'd been there!

Don't get me wrong: I was not the most popular girl in school because I didn't put up with bullying. But I knew who my friends were, and that was all that mattered to me.

The high school volleyball team was tough on me though. Lots of queen bees and not a lot of friendly faces there for me.

I'm definitely glad to be a grown-up!

Thanks for retroactively sticking up for us, Kriston!

Ebeth-

That environment sounds toxic for you, as well as your son. Have you thought about relocating?

Ebeth,

Some Combatives training will help your son to both defend himself and gain respect for the uselessness of violence. An MMA instructor who does classes for kids and who stresses physical fitness would be something to look into. Boys definately benefit from cathartic exercise.

Thanks everyone for the discussion. It is both comforting to hear that other people have experienced and dealt with bullying, and simultaneously rather depressing to hear how pervasive it is.

I haven't learned how to reply by quoting other posts yet, but Neato, your sentence below really hit the spot!

"In theory I prefer to take the high road everytime. In reality; have you ever hiked down that road? Holy cow, you can go for miles and days without every seeing another living soul."

I think I going to have to print that out and paste it over my computer. LOL!

Lorel: We are currently trying to remodel our basement ourselves, and have sunk some money into our current location. Otherwise I would move in a heartbeat. I still keep one eye on the real estate ads, though. I just can't see us putting our house on the market with half-built walls and dangling electrical outlets. (grin). But we may consider it in the future. It is a shame since I really love this house. My evil side has considered printing out some wonderfully enticing ads for houses for sale in our neighborhood and sticking them in my neighbor's mailbox, though!

Austin: Could you give me more info on some of these classes? I have been reluctant to go the Tae Kwon Do type route for fear of encouraging my DS8 to take matters physically. But I like your mention of the "uselessness of violence". Could you explain MMA?

We just started taking our DS8 to counselor who specializes in gifted kids. He really loves it and asks constantly when we are going back. (He even invited her over to dinner so that afterwards he could show her his lego creations!) She got him to start talking to her by building a lego creation for her. He built a "protector" for her. So he is definitely internalizing some of these problems. Her advice, so far (after two sessions), is to find other kids to play with away from this group... parks, pool, camps. So we will try that for a while. We are also reading a couple of kid's books that deal with the subject... "Speak Up and Get Along" by Scott Cooper and "Bullies are a Pain in the Brain" by Trevor Romain.

The counselor sounds helpful. I hope so!

Ebeth,

It sounds like he has good instincts.

He is going to have to learn how to defend himself. Today its the neighborhood sociopath-in-waiting. Tomorrow its the VP of Operations who is getting divorced who he has just pissed off with bad news. He has to develop his own code of conduct and learn to manage people as they are, not as he wishes them to be.

I had some of the same issues your son did at his age. The only way I worked through them was to stand up to the bullies by fighting them physically on a legitimate basis. What I did to deal with them was on the advice of an older adult male. It was very specific and I won't go into it here, but it worked. He should get the same advice from someone who will support him.

I know that some intellectually gifted people are turned off by the cult of the body and violence. But its a fact that some people cannot be reasoned with and nor can they be avoided. What will you do?

My personal philosophy is that there is a boundary to behaviors and words. Once someone crosses that boundary, then my interaction with with them is no longer governed by reason and discussion, but by force or lies and its legitimate to use both to rid myself of their presence or at least control them. In fact, its the only moral thing to do.

In your son's case, he needs to do some politicking and pick the kids off from the bully by spending time with each one one-on-one such that information and things are shared without the bully controlling the flow. He needs to pick one as a friend and then they go do something together. And then do it with another. If its not an intellectual thing, then it can be something as simple as putt-putt golf or videogames in your house and sleepovers. You can facilitate this by working with the parents and developing your own rappor. At some point he can convert the bully to his friend - but he may just need to control him by manipulating him either with words or fear since it sounds like the bully is also a liar and may just be a sociopath.

As for MMA - the problem with most martial arts is that they are Decadent - mumbo jumbo. 99% of what they teach has ZERO to do with actually winning a fight. MMA means Mixed Martial Arts. It takes what works from all the disciplines and then tests this fusion in an actual public fight. MMA stresses the fight continuum - the first few seconds and the conditioning aspect as well.

Here is a link. I would email Marc Denny ( he is the top dog ) a short synopsis of your situation and ask for an instructor or mentor in your area. Then go see him or her. Marc is a HIGHLY respected MMA instructor and writer. He is also a first rate intellectual - no doubt GT - and an Attorney. He is also very humble and accessible.

http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/instructors_dbmaainstructors.html

I would add that by learning from a real fighter, he will see that the actual fight is just the last 1% of the conflict. How he projects himself, how he talks, how he stands determines if he is ever in a fight. It will also give him an internal compass - he will know he can take anyone in the room so what is the point even giving this creep the time of day. He also learns from getting hurt in training that fighting has consquences and he will come to respect his trainer such that he will never lose that respect by fighting for fighting's sake or using his skills to inflict unnecessary pain.

The only other thing I would add is that I do not allow strikes to my head in practice or otherwise because my mind is my most prized possession. I don't head the ball in soccer and always avoided head on hits in football. Lots of studies have shown that repeated hits in all sports really hurts the brain!!!

Not just 'intellectually gifted', but I do agree that some people can not be reasoned with, nor can they be avoided.
The reason most parents have their children take training in martial arts is to develop self control and confidence. That will get a child through 99%(my guessitmate) of bullying issues.

I don't agree with a large part of your post, but it's your perception based on your experience.

I'm with you, OHG.

I think self-confidence is mostly what keeps a kid from being bullied. For some kids, the knowledge that they could fight if they had to is what gives them that confidence. Others don't need that.

I never thought I would have to physically fight, and I never moved in that direction. I had a different kind of confidence. The fact that I didn't care if I was popular or not was a great source of strength and courage, since it meant I would not go with the mob. (And ironically, it meant that I was generally pretty well-liked and well-respected.) I had a very strong sense of self, and bullies couldn't break that in me, so they just backed down. Every time. But I was never in a physical fight.

(Again, I do think some of this was because I was a girl. The rules are different, I know. But I think boys who have a strong sense of self tend not to have to fight either. A strong self-confidence affects the situation the same way, regardless of gender, I think.)

For a kid who doesn't have that strong sense of self, I do think that Austin's idea of befriending the hangers-on is a good idea. Finding people on the outskirts of the group--not those in the center of the gang, but the ones trying hard to fit in or the ones who are similarly alone--is a good plan for cultivating pockets of resistance to the bully. Bullies target the weak and alone. If a child is not weak or not alone--either one!--that child is a less attractive target.

Yep.

The VP should be ashamed of having a kid do HIS job.

You can seek to be a natural leader by developing direct relationships with everyone in the group. I think that is what Ebeth's son wants to do, but he just needs some instruction on what works and what is not acceptable. Most bullies can be countered by being their friend. That should be his eventual goal, assuming the bully is not a sociopath. It should not be a zero-sum game.

But a common mistake that many kids make is by trying to be friends with the central figure in the group right off the bat. I think that's what ebeth's son is doing wrong. This approach rarely works. It gives the bully too much power and opens a kid up for ridicule.

Better to aim for befriending the peripheral kids in the group, the ones with less power and the ones more likely to be open to friendship. The more marginal the kids, the more open they are likely to be to friendship. Then, with luck and a little confidence, these friendships can open a door to friendship--or at least peaceful co-existence--with the group leader.

I love that so many people are throwing out ideas to help E-beth and her family. The more ideas the better.
Well, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I've always been more effective in solving a problem when I've been able to draw from a lot of info and cherry pick what would would work best for the given situation.

I am definately a high road person, after all people act like jerks all the time but the only one I have to look at everyday for the rest of my life, is me, in the mirror!
I'm a well adjusted, happy, intelligent, gregarious person with a lot to be grateful for, so I figure it's my responsibility to turn the other cheek when someone is making trouble and there are plenty of ways to stop that behavior if you have to without getting your hands dirty.
BUT,(and I have a very BIG BUT-humor alert-) there have been several occasions when someone has just kept coming at me no matter how many times I had gently manuevered around them. In fact, the more I was able to manuever around them, the more incenced they became until it became clear that it was just not going to let up. I mean at a point someone makes it clear that it's either them or you. Well as much as I hate to admit it, I value myself, so given that ultimatum, it's going to be them; everytime.

Maybe I will mellow out in my old age..........

I actually think Austin's advice is pure genius. But I'm concerned that a nine year old doesn't have the life experience to pull it off. Austin, could you really have come up with that when you were nine? I'm not trying to be antagonistic.
I seem to be someone that people sense should not be trifled with, but I'm 39 years old. There were many learning experiences along the way that got me to where I am. I sure wouldn't have been able to pull-off that level of sophisticated manipulation when I was nine, even if I had an instruction manual!

But let's keep throwing ideas out there for E-beth's DS. It's clear the bullying has to stop somehow.

And I love the counselor. I'm going to guess that she will be extremely helpful to DS in learning how to deal with bullying.

How hard is it? Does it have to be conscious?

I loved football/soccer when I was in school. I made lots of friends on the field that otherwise I would not have. These friends followed me back into the classrooms and playgrounds. At a new school, I always showed up for the pick-up games, got picked last, but proved myself. After a while I was 2d/3rd pick most of the time.

Same thing would occur at summer camps, scout camps, etc. The first two or three days would be rough as the bullies tried to use me as a whipping boy - probably because I would go off and read during non-programmed moments - I would plop down and read where ever I could. Then sports would start up and the need to win would arise and I'd be accepted.

What was I doing?

The trick is to find the common interests that join kids together. Videogames are big one today. Sports are another. Movies. You name it.

a GT kid can be motivated to analyze people and how they interact just as they would do for any subject. There are lots of books on Social Intelligence. Once a kid knows how to start up small talk, then he can interview the peer to see what they have in common.

Austin, I'm glad it was so easy for you.
You are not he.
Only he and his family know if this is something that would be as intuitive as it was for you.


Now this comment I am a little confused by. When you state "a gt kid" which one are you talking about. Same for, once "a kid"- who is this "a kid".

Is there just one kid with this ability?

It COULD be taken the wrong way as if the implication is "IF your kid is GT THEN they can be motivated to analyze people.
IF he can read a book THEN he can win friends and influence people.

I definately agree with your viewpoint but I don't think we can make the assumption that all gt kids could easily turn this social situation around, it's not logical to me.

I wouldn't want e-beth or anyone else to ever think that it's so simple they must just be doing something wrong or are inadequate for not being able to prevent it so simply. KWIM?

Austin has identified the main problem. My DS8 has nothing in common with these kids. The 11-year old likes violent video games (no, really?) which I won't let my son watch. The younger kids think he is cool because he can view things that are forbidden to them. So he can keep them hooked because he shares info with them that they can't get any other place. They are starting to talk about alcohol and how cool it is to be drunk. So if my son does play with them, he starts acting out what I would call inappropriate things with his lego figures.

We are really quite different from the average family around here, in that we don't let him watch a lot of tv and we don't have a game boy or WII. I have often worried that we are depriving him of some basic social connection, and would love to ask what other people think of this. We prefer to spend our time reading books and using your imagination. But in this world, that can isolate you by making you stand out as different. He got labeled as "weird" and "crazy" in second grade because the other kids were playing Pokemon on the playground. My DS loves collecting the cards and knows all about the characters. But he hasn't watched any of the tv shows. These kids wanted to act out the tv shows exactly, and whenever my son had an idea about something cool he could add using his imagination, then the game would stop and they would call him names and tell him to leave. Sigh.

Once DS(then 7) was up in a tree looping climbing rope through all the branches and having a ball when one of the next door kids came over (they are the same age). My son excitedly asked the other boy to come on up on his spaceship, and that he was about to blast off to another planet. The ropes were the electricity lines that he was plugging in to power his ship, and so he told the boy to be careful not to touch them when he was climbing up. The boy stood there looking confused. My son stopped and explained again that he was welcome to come up and play and that maybe they could go off and have a grand adventure exploring space and finding some evil jedi to conquer. The boy continued to stare. After about ten minutes, the neighbor boy finally said, "Oh, you are using your imagination!".

Needless to say, they are not the best match for playmates. They (twin boys) have been held back a year and my son has advanced a year. The parents on the block actually view my son as the weird one (because he is up in trees talking to himself about space adventures!) and would prefer to have their kids play with the 11-year old who acts out his first-person-shooter games in the front yard. They view DS8's vivid imagination (you know, the one you get from turning off the tube and reading books occasionally...) as a sign of a mental disability. They have actually told their kids that they don't trust DS8 and not to play with him.

How do you find kids that are similar to your kid when your kid is one in 10,000+? Does anyone else have trouble finding "normal" kids for their kids to play with?

As you all can probably tell by now, I am not a person of few words. (embarrassed grin!)

If I ever post a message of only a sentence of two, please someone.. check my pulse!

It seems like there are two issues. One is dealing/handling bullies. The second is finding appropriate friends.
Does that sound right?

Yes, that is quite correct.

(pulse check... yes I'm still here!)

What about applying to DYS?
I know others have mentioned MENSA for children's gatherings. We did take the girls to one in our area but there wasn't a ton going on.
I suspect a drama class might attract other kids who are comfortable using there imagination creatively. I'm just guessing but it sounds good......hey perhaps we should look into that!

For bullying: As mentioned I think it's always wise to recruit help from an expert like you have.
I will say I've made a concerted effort to balance between encouraging the girls to be themselves and aiding their ability to blend. It's a slippery slope, who knows if it's the right thing.
We did buy a Wii. Of course I thought it would be fun, but honestly a big part of the purchasing decision was made on the observation that the 5 and 7 year old girls who were visiting would NOT be pleased to play snap circuits. But, they all seemed to be happy when they play Wii. I only have a few non-offensive games like bowling and Mario Super Galaxy.
So I do, do little things like that to help them fit into the culture of our town/neighborhood. Right or wrong.

I'm glad your pulse is steady!

Ok, is this typical of most kids? I find this hard to believe. My boys engage in the type of play your son does on a minute basis. They would have had a blast climbing into that tree and pretending to conquer Darth Vador.

I feel profoundly sad for your son.

I remember DS(then 6) flying out of the school doors at the end of the day shortly after beginning first grade. His backpack was on backwards, pouch in the front, and he was pretending that it was a shield and he was a knight. He was so happy to be free from the confines of a desk and out in the sunshine. He was bursting with joy! All of the other parents literally stopped and stared at him. The parents here want their kids to be miniature adults, or little walking CEO's. They drum out creativity and individuality quickly.

Sadly, I wonder what is left?