Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Should I apply to Davidson or wait?

My 4yo son was recently tested on the WPPSI-III and WIAT. He meets the Davidson qualification criteria for academics, but is slightly below for IQ.
Is it worth applying (knowing that we don't outright meet the qualifications), or should we wait until he is older and can be tested with higher ceilings?

My son taught himself to read before two years old, and is currently working 4 grades ahead, being both grade-skipped, and subject-accelerated.
His writing is only slightly ahead due to a fine-motor disability (this is why his coding score is so low).

~redacted~

For medical reasons, my son will be retested in 2 years. Should I wait to apply since our current IQ scores do not meet the Davidson criteria of FSIQ 150?

Since neither of his scores qualify, I don't think they will even consider it. He is only 4 - I think I would wait for a bit. My son barely had a qualifying score on the WJ-III and I put together what I thought was a good portfolio but he did not get in.

He also had a really low processing speed so his IQ scores were not close enough. We may retest in the future if we can figure out why and help him improves in this area.

HIs academic scores qualify.

HIs IQ score qualifies if you calculate a GAI for it, but I don't think Davidson accepts this for the WPPSI, even though, the National Association for Gifted Children's position is that including timed tests in a Full Scale score, particularly in young children, does not represent a child's intellectual abilities as well as the GAI.

I'm just curious if it's worth applying with one score that doesn't technically meet the threshold.

The ceiling on the WPPSI is low, and my son was having trouble attending during the testing, so I'm sure a later test would capture him better. I am only considering applying now because It would be nice to have an advocate while we are still trying to work with the school to meet his needs.

Davidson criteria is pretty clear. If you search the archives, you will find many people who did apply with non-qualifying scores and they did not get in.

Is he almost 5? Your child has to be 5 to apply for DYS. I would wait until 6 with the WISC - then you can get the GAI. Unless for some reason you feel that you absolutely need the resources now - then I would think about a portfolio if you have corresponding achievement scores.

metis, looking at the scores you posted, it looks like he took the WPPSI-III. I could be mistaken, but I believe that the WPPSI-III does not have a GAI possibility. The newer version of the WPPSI that just came out (version IV) does have a GAI option and the tests are also somewhat different: a Verbal Comprehension Index (VCI), a Visual Spatial Index (VSI), a Working Memory Index (WMI), a Fluid Reasoning Index (FRI), and a Processing Speed Index (PSI) rather than the Verbal, Performance, and Processing Speed indices that you got with the WPPSI-III. Like the WISC-IV, I believe that the WPPSI-IV drops the WMI and PSI scores in calculating the GAI.

It is certainly possible that your ds is DYS material and his WPPSI scores are nothing to sneeze at, but like others I'd tend to wait for new testing when he is old enough to apply and with (hopefully) just somewhat higher scores so he is over the minimum requirements not just slightly under them.

Is there something specific you'd be hoping to get from DYS at this point?

eta: I do see your note now about advocacy help. Are you having difficulty in getting the school to work with you at the moment? I'd assume that he's a kindergartener with your mention of a grade skip. Perhaps we can help you brainstorm what things might help improve the situation so you can at least go to the school with a specific plan of what you are asking.

I was also wondering what you hope to get from DYS? The scores you have will qualify your ds for most other programs that are available to children his age.

polarbear

Technically, the WPPSI-III doesn't have an "official" GAI, but a similar pro-rated score can be calculated and that's the score that gifted schools in my area request.
I can understand the Davidson position on this. Testing a young child on a test that has a very low ceiling isn't an accurate way to identify a profoundly gifted child, so naturally there is a preference for very high scores to offset that uncertainty.

My interest in Davidson's is twofold.
1. It's one of the few organizations where we can connect with families with similar children, and even children that are so advanced, they make my child seem normal (which actually, is a really nice feeling!) My hope is that it might be a place where my son can find other children like him, because even with other gifted children, he is different and that can be lonely. He deserves to know what it is like to have a true peer. I have heard that PG retreat is a better place for this though.

2. It would be nice to have help with the advocating. We have found a school that works for the next year (with a continued grade-skip and academic work roughly 3 grades more), and it's just enough to make school bearable. Sadly, the school ends after first grade, and other schools we have toured, both pubic and private, have balked at continuing the grade-skip and/or providing curriculum at a much higher level and faster pace. I can see it's going to be a battle and It's likely the 4 year gap will grow if my son's interest in academics continues, and/or we homeschool at some point in the future. The speed he can learn is astounding. It's a real problem.

So, although I am proficient at advocacy, having an organization's expertise behind me can only help. I will likely need this support before he is 6yo, and can take better tests, and the school system still kind of works. My son wants to be homeschooled, but my fear is that if I start actively teaching him, he will quickly grow too many grades ahead for a brick & mortar to ever work.

I am trying to keep as many options open for him as I can.

To be clear, I don't think that any of us is saying that he isn't PG, just that you'll probably need a new test to get him into DYS. If you can swing a new test, it may be worth doing once he's 6 or if you want to give a shot with the SB-5 sooner.

Regarding the SB-LM, I know that has been flushed out here before, but the reason that kids get higher scores on it vs more modern tests isn't solely related to the modern tests being poor means of measuring IQ at the tail ends. I agree and have also wondered about how we measure the difference btwn HG and EG and PG when none of these tests was meant to do so, but I don't think that using a 40+ yr old test with outdated norms, Flynn Effect issues as a result, a different SD than most modern tests, a different theory of intelligence than many more recent tests, etc. is the way to do it. I always take those comparison tables of LM scores vs WISC scores with a grain of salt. I'm just not convinced that the higher LM scores are more accurate.

metis, you asked about whether or not you should seek out a tester who is experienced in 2e when your ds has his next evaluation. I think it would be really good to seek out a tester with that type of expertise, but they are also not easy to find or access depending on where you live. My advice is that if it's going to be a huge expense to try to find a tester with 2e expertise, also try simply looking for a pediatric neuropsychologist with a good reputation. We have a 2e EG ds who has a WISC profile similar to your ds - so I suspect your ds' challenges may be similar - our ds has a fine motor disability due to dyspraxia which impacts his handwriting (and other things). He's been given the WISC three times as well as the WJ-III (all the repeats are over the years for different reasons - gifted program entry, neuropsych eval for LD, school eligibility for IEP, repeat neuropsych for middle school). He's never seen a psych who either specialized in gifted or 2e, but has instead been tested by private psychs who are more often called upon when a child is struggling and a school psych who was nothing short of a pain in the unmentionable to ds during his testing. DS' IQ subtest profile has been exactly the same over all that repeated testing with different evaluators. If anything, I personally think the most important part of testing is finding a provider who has a good rapport with children and a good reputation among the medical professionals you know.

That said, if I could take my ds to the Eides, I would do it in a heartbeat - not because I think his IQ scores would come out any differently, but because they specialize in kids with similar profiles and because I would love to have their advice. OTOH, I have gotten very good advice from our local neuropsych and I've gotten test results I can trust. With those, I've been able to research and advocate successfully.

Best wishes,

polarbear