My 4yo son was recently tested on the WPPSI-III and WIAT. He meets the Davidson qualification criteria for academics, but is slightly below for IQ.
Is it worth applying (knowing that we don't outright meet the qualifications), or should we wait until he is older and can be tested with higher ceilings?

My son taught himself to read before two years old, and is currently working 4 grades ahead, being both grade-skipped, and subject-accelerated.
His writing is only slightly ahead due to a fine-motor disability (this is why his coding score is so low).

~redacted~

For medical reasons, my son will be retested in 2 years. Should I wait to apply since our current IQ scores do not meet the Davidson criteria of FSIQ 150?

Since neither of his scores qualify, I don't think they will even consider it. He is only 4 - I think I would wait for a bit. My son barely had a qualifying score on the WJ-III and I put together what I thought was a good portfolio but he did not get in.

He also had a really low processing speed so his IQ scores were not close enough. We may retest in the future if we can figure out why and help him improves in this area.

HIs academic scores qualify.

HIs IQ score qualifies if you calculate a GAI for it, but I don't think Davidson accepts this for the WPPSI, even though, the National Association for Gifted Children's position is that including timed tests in a Full Scale score, particularly in young children, does not represent a child's intellectual abilities as well as the GAI.

I'm just curious if it's worth applying with one score that doesn't technically meet the threshold.

The ceiling on the WPPSI is low, and my son was having trouble attending during the testing, so I'm sure a later test would capture him better. I am only considering applying now because It would be nice to have an advocate while we are still trying to work with the school to meet his needs.

Davidson criteria is pretty clear. If you search the archives, you will find many people who did apply with non-qualifying scores and they did not get in.

Is he almost 5? Your child has to be 5 to apply for DYS. I would wait until 6 with the WISC - then you can get the GAI. Unless for some reason you feel that you absolutely need the resources now - then I would think about a portfolio if you have corresponding achievement scores.

metis, looking at the scores you posted, it looks like he took the WPPSI-III. I could be mistaken, but I believe that the WPPSI-III does not have a GAI possibility. The newer version of the WPPSI that just came out (version IV) does have a GAI option and the tests are also somewhat different: a Verbal Comprehension Index (VCI), a Visual Spatial Index (VSI), a Working Memory Index (WMI), a Fluid Reasoning Index (FRI), and a Processing Speed Index (PSI) rather than the Verbal, Performance, and Processing Speed indices that you got with the WPPSI-III. Like the WISC-IV, I believe that the WPPSI-IV drops the WMI and PSI scores in calculating the GAI.

It is certainly possible that your ds is DYS material and his WPPSI scores are nothing to sneeze at, but like others I'd tend to wait for new testing when he is old enough to apply and with (hopefully) just somewhat higher scores so he is over the minimum requirements not just slightly under them.

Is there something specific you'd be hoping to get from DYS at this point?

eta: I do see your note now about advocacy help. Are you having difficulty in getting the school to work with you at the moment? I'd assume that he's a kindergartener with your mention of a grade skip. Perhaps we can help you brainstorm what things might help improve the situation so you can at least go to the school with a specific plan of what you are asking.

I was also wondering what you hope to get from DYS? The scores you have will qualify your ds for most other programs that are available to children his age.

polarbear

Technically, the WPPSI-III doesn't have an "official" GAI, but a similar pro-rated score can be calculated and that's the score that gifted schools in my area request.
I can understand the Davidson position on this. Testing a young child on a test that has a very low ceiling isn't an accurate way to identify a profoundly gifted child, so naturally there is a preference for very high scores to offset that uncertainty.

My interest in Davidson's is twofold.
1. It's one of the few organizations where we can connect with families with similar children, and even children that are so advanced, they make my child seem normal (which actually, is a really nice feeling!) My hope is that it might be a place where my son can find other children like him, because even with other gifted children, he is different and that can be lonely. He deserves to know what it is like to have a true peer. I have heard that PG retreat is a better place for this though.

2. It would be nice to have help with the advocating. We have found a school that works for the next year (with a continued grade-skip and academic work roughly 3 grades more), and it's just enough to make school bearable. Sadly, the school ends after first grade, and other schools we have toured, both pubic and private, have balked at continuing the grade-skip and/or providing curriculum at a much higher level and faster pace. I can see it's going to be a battle and It's likely the 4 year gap will grow if my son's interest in academics continues, and/or we homeschool at some point in the future. The speed he can learn is astounding. It's a real problem.

So, although I am proficient at advocacy, having an organization's expertise behind me can only help. I will likely need this support before he is 6yo, and can take better tests, and the school system still kind of works. My son wants to be homeschooled, but my fear is that if I start actively teaching him, he will quickly grow too many grades ahead for a brick & mortar to ever work.

I am trying to keep as many options open for him as I can.

To be clear, I don't think that any of us is saying that he isn't PG, just that you'll probably need a new test to get him into DYS. If you can swing a new test, it may be worth doing once he's 6 or if you want to give a shot with the SB-5 sooner.

Regarding the SB-LM, I know that has been flushed out here before, but the reason that kids get higher scores on it vs more modern tests isn't solely related to the modern tests being poor means of measuring IQ at the tail ends. I agree and have also wondered about how we measure the difference btwn HG and EG and PG when none of these tests was meant to do so, but I don't think that using a 40+ yr old test with outdated norms, Flynn Effect issues as a result, a different SD than most modern tests, a different theory of intelligence than many more recent tests, etc. is the way to do it. I always take those comparison tables of LM scores vs WISC scores with a grain of salt. I'm just not convinced that the higher LM scores are more accurate.

metis, you asked about whether or not you should seek out a tester who is experienced in 2e when your ds has his next evaluation. I think it would be really good to seek out a tester with that type of expertise, but they are also not easy to find or access depending on where you live. My advice is that if it's going to be a huge expense to try to find a tester with 2e expertise, also try simply looking for a pediatric neuropsychologist with a good reputation. We have a 2e EG ds who has a WISC profile similar to your ds - so I suspect your ds' challenges may be similar - our ds has a fine motor disability due to dyspraxia which impacts his handwriting (and other things). He's been given the WISC three times as well as the WJ-III (all the repeats are over the years for different reasons - gifted program entry, neuropsych eval for LD, school eligibility for IEP, repeat neuropsych for middle school). He's never seen a psych who either specialized in gifted or 2e, but has instead been tested by private psychs who are more often called upon when a child is struggling and a school psych who was nothing short of a pain in the unmentionable to ds during his testing. DS' IQ subtest profile has been exactly the same over all that repeated testing with different evaluators. If anything, I personally think the most important part of testing is finding a provider who has a good rapport with children and a good reputation among the medical professionals you know.

That said, if I could take my ds to the Eides, I would do it in a heartbeat - not because I think his IQ scores would come out any differently, but because they specialize in kids with similar profiles and because I would love to have their advice. OTOH, I have gotten very good advice from our local neuropsych and I've gotten test results I can trust. With those, I've been able to research and advocate successfully.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I'd think we'd want testing to be prescriptive/predictive rather than competitive/comparative.

If you look at the scores of say the SB-LM and case studies, you can start to answer longitudinal questions. Like what level of acceleration tends to have the best outcome for a kid who scores 160 on SB-LM, or what is an ideal number of repititions for someone with a 140 on SB-LM, etc.

The Flynn effect would more strongly imply that the system needs to change more to meet the needs of the growing segment of fast learners than that fast learners need to be parsed out with a solid percent. Gifted research into methods related to the top 3% from 20 years ago may now need to be applied to the top 20%.

(blissfully ignoring that prepping gunks the whole thing up)

Cricket2,
I agree with you about the SB-LM. The scores seem inflated.

polarbear,
Our boys sound alike. Did your son also have a decent processing score when they removed the fine motor aspect? Also beery VMI scores that were astoundingly low?

The doctor said that we would have a more accurate score on the WISC because the ceilings are higher. My son is getting tested on that as soon as he meets the age limit, and I'm glad you have found it reliable, even with testers unfamiliar with giftedness. That reassures me, because I would prefer to test through insurance than pay outright. More money for books that way!

Is your son in Davidson's then? They can calculate a GAI on the WISC, and also, the children are older and more cooperative during testing (or so I hear). I expect my son to do better, only because the ceilings were so low that he thought the test was easy. It may be that there are new parts of the test he will find difficult though, who knows.

Zen Scanner,
I can see your points.

I think figuring out how much acceleration and repetition my child needs is something I can do without paying a lot of money for an additional test. I don't want a number unless it's useful it getting services for my child (IEP, gifted program, so on).

It would be nice to have better tests, no?

metis,

I didn't apply to DYS for my ds because he didn't have qualifying achievement scores and I didn't think there was enough of a benefit for us to bother with putting together a portfolio. Getting achievement scores was very challenging for us in early elementary - the times he was given his tests, other than his first set of testing for an early gifted program - were times that the assessment was addressing the impact of his handwriting and expressive language challenges, so he didn't have accommodations on those achievement tests, and the fluency subtests always had low scores because they were timed and relied on handwriting for the response. As he's gotten older and has taken other types of achievement tests through school with accommodations, his scores are back up where we'd expect they should be based on ability... sooo... right now I'm working on (slowly lol!) getting his college board accommodations in place so he can take the SAT and ACT early, and if he has qualifying scores on them maybe we'll apply. Honestly it's not something that has been a high priority for us because I don't think it would help with advocacy at school at this point in time, and he's not really looking for peers through DYS, he's fairly happy with the friends he's found through school. I have found, however, that it *is* extremely helpful to have the WISC testing, both for advocating at school and more so for understanding his challenges

He did have low scores on the Beery VMI, and also on part of the NEPSY (not sure if your ds had that or an equivalent?). I will have to look up the Beery to see which tests he scored lower on- if I remember correctly he had one significantly lower than the other (I think it's two-part?). He also had and OT eval in 2nd grade which was all average or above but had a large split with some scores high, some only hovering around average or maybe low average.

When you have your ds retested, I'd ask the tester if they are willing to calculate extended norms on the WISC. Our tester didn't offer that, and I didn't know about them at the time! She also didn't automatically offer up the GAI the first time he was tested either, until I asked a question about something and she said "Oh! I can give you a number that isn't impacted by processing speed if you want it!" (duh!)

Best wishes,

polarbear

polarbear,

Raising a twice-exceptional child is no picnic.

I'll ask the tester about doing extended norms. Do most achievement tests rely heavily on writing processing speed? If that's so, then we will likely have problems in the future as well. It would be almost impossible for a profoundly gifted child with dysgraphia to get the scores Davidson requires on a test like that. My son's achievement tests are at an acceptable level, only because writing is a separate subtest at this age. Even so, his slightly above-average score, is the one I am MOST proud of. He earned every bit of that score through hard work.

My PG daughter with dysgraphia got into Davidson on testing alone, Metis (WISC-IV and Woodcock-Johnson achievement). Her qualifying score was Broad Math - her verbal scores were also high, but not Davidson-high.

ElizabethN,

That's good to know.

So the Woodcock-Johnson test doesn't require any writing? Our doctor was planning to use the WIAT again. We had a writing subtest separate from math and reading, but I think in the versions for older children, the writing is mixed in. For example, my guess is that children are timed when writing math problems. I could be wrong though. Can anyone chime in on this?

My understanding is that academic testing is used to diagnose dysgraphia, so if a child scores high in writing, then he/she clearly doesn't have dysgraphia. My son was diagnosed because most scores were very high except when writing was required. Various motor tests and his developmental history back up the diagnosis. Was your child diagnosed the same way? Does she have an IEP?

I doubt the Doctor we have will want to use a test he isn't familiar with, but it's good to know that other test options are out there. I'm unlikely to pay for additional testing just to get into Davidson, but it's nice to know that there are options that exclude the disability effect, so that you can get a true picture of where your child is academically.

Has Davidson's been helpful for you?

ElizabethN, polarbear,

Thanks for replying.
It's nice to know that others are in similar situations.

My son is currently in therapy, and we recently started Handwriting without Tears. We assumed that he would teach himself to write, the way he has taught himself everything else, but he actually needs our help, and even, *gasp*, repetition. We are still adjusting to the fact that these things are difficult for him, and that we need to be actively involved.

Have you seen progress with your kids over time?
Any recommendations?

Some do, some don't - did your ds have the WIAT this time around? My children haven't taken the WIAT so I'm not familiar with it. They've had the WJ-III, and in that, handwriting impacted my ds' scores significantly across the reading/writing/math tests - if you group his scores by response type (oral vs handwriting vs handwriting+timed), the oral response subtest scores align with his ability scores; the handwriting (untimed) scores show about a 35+ drop in percentile and the subtests that require handwritten responses and are also timed were down in the 7th-20th percentiles. The handwritten response tests that weren't timed dropped due to the impact of having to focus every bit of working memory on the act of handwriting, and the timed handwritten response tests had not only that but his handwriting is simply incredibly slow. The one good thing about that is that when we group the scores that way, it helped tremendously in showing school staff the impact of dysgraphia. Our neuropsych also told us that there are two versions of the WJ-III Achievement tests, so if we had wanted to, we could have paid another tester to have the second version given to our ds with an oral response accommodation to show the difference in scores when handwriting was taken out of the picture. We didn't opt to do that due to time and $.


On the type of achievement test that is typically used by psychologists comparing ability to achievement, yes - that's part of the point of testing ability vs achievement with the WJ-III combo and the WISC/WIAT. However, once you have that type of testing done, and you have a dysgraphia diagnosis, you can request and should receive testing accommodations for testing in the classroom, state testing, and hopefully college board testing. My ds had accommodations in place at school by the time he had testing that really mattered on his record at school, and he's done very well on that type of testing (with a glaring exception, which happened on a test where he was not given one of his accommodations).

Another hopeful note - our neuropsych has told us that eventually the college boards tests will be moved to the computer, and that will take away a large chunk of the challenge of standardized testing for dysgraphic students.

FWIW, the accommodations that my ds has for testing are: extended time, writing answers in the answer book, and word processor for essay questions.


I soooo totally understand!

polarbear

I think WJ-III requires some writing, but most of it is not timed. DD9 is doing better and better with writing, but there is still a profound mismatch between her ability to answer questions verbally and her ability to answer them in writing. The tester did comment that it was great that she tried to write down some of her work as she was solving some of the harder problems, instead of holding it all in her memory and just writing down a final answer.

She does not have an IEP, because her achievement level is too high. She does have a 504 plan for SPD and "emotional volatility." She was diagnosed mostly on the mismatch between the timed written sections of the WISC-III and the untimed sections, I think.
I would have to go back and dig out the report to check on that.


We haven't done a lot with Davidson yet - she only joined in September. But I'm really glad that she did, because it has put us in contact with some wonderful peers for her. You would think that she would have been able to find friends in the highly-gifted public school program that she's in, but in fact, she was more comfortable with the Davidson girls after ten minutes than she is with classmates she's known for eighteen months. (And we felt the same way about their parents!) DH and I have had one very useful phone call with the Davidson folks about her 504 plan, which is still really a work in progress. They're not a panacea, but they're definitely helpful.

That was a tough adjustment in mindset for my dh and myself. Before he was in school and faced with having to use handwriting, our ds was so obviously "smart" - his intellect was obvious when he spoke, and nothing he was asked to do required handwriting, so he picked up everything in life quickly, he was happy, other adults marveled at how smart he was, and dh and I naively thought school would be a breeze I will never forget when ds had his first neuropsych eval and dh and I were meeting with the neuropsych to review her findings, and she used the word "disability" as if it was a totally normal part of our lives - I think my stomach hit the floor it fell so hard and so fast. Later as we were farther on in getting help for ds, it was just hard to wrap my head around how *much* repetition he needed for so many very simple tasks. For ds, the impact was larger than just handwriting; he didn't learn how to tie his shows until he was around 9 years old, and he's also needed intense slp therapy for help with written expression - which again, is routed in this same need to repeat repeat repeat repeat due to the lack of automaticity that is inherent in dysgraphics. It's such a weird combination of strengths and challenges.


Yes! Absolutely - we've seen wonderful, amazing progress over time. Recommendations? First recommendation is to step back and not get tied down with what you might have thought was important back when you had no idea your ds would have a handwriting challenge. We did HWOT as a first step recommended by ds' neuropsychologist, but it was a complete bomb for our ds. His hand hurt when he wrote, and he was miserable doing extra HWOT at home, so we let it go. The next step (for us) was handwriting OT, and that was very helpful for ds because he learned how to use a correct pencil grip and body posture while writing, and that helped reduce the pain he felt when writing. It also gave him legible handwriting. But - it wasn't a cure for dysgraphia, and in some ways, having legible handwriting made it even tougher to advocate for him at school. Legible was good - but his legibility was limited, it didn't continue to improve with time as other children's did. More importantly, even though it was legible his handwriting was (and is) extremely slow. So that's recommendation #2, time how long it takes your ds to write. One way to time is to have him write the full alphabet out, lower and upper case, time how long it takes, then convert it to letters per minute. You can google around to find out what is a typical letters per minute for the grade level your ds is in, which can provide you with another set of info showing the impact of dysgraphia when you are advocating at school (if you need it). The other thing you'll see from this is whether or not he's forming all of the letters correctly.

Next recommendation: start him typing right away at home so that by the time he can use typing as an accommodation at school he'll be used to it. Don't worry about having him learn touch-typing, let him come up with his own system. We've been told lots of young students like to type with just thumb and first finger and that works a-ok (just like it works fine for us older folks when we text :D). Also don't worry if his typing seems really slow - my ds has slow typing and will never develop faster typing due also to his fine motor issues... but his typing is still significantly faster than his handwriting.

Other recommendations - advocate for accommodations at school starting now, and most importantly - be sure you continue to advocate for him to have challenges in school in the areas he's strong in, and make sure that life outside of school doesn't become all about remediating dysgraphia

I'm sure I could list 1800 other recommendations if I thought long enough - feel free to ask more questions if you have them!

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - one other thing I'll add - early elementary school was really rough because there was so much emphasis on advocating for accommodations and trying to remediate what we could etc. You'll find that as time moves on and your ds moves through to upper elementary and middle school things will most likely get better overall - the dysgraphia won't go away (and in our ds' case, he actually forgot some of the things he worked hard at learning due to dysgraphia... such as cursive!)... but overall, academics and life are *so* much better! It's been easier to get him appropriate academic challenge as he moved into middle school, he's happier because life is no longer all about learning how to cope with dysgraphia, and he really is now doing very well on standardized tests and doing very well in the classroom.

polarbear

Thanks for all the replies (and hope).

Our son didn't qualify for an IEP because his achievement is too high (even in timed writing, he is above-average), but he does qualify for a 504. The district wants us to wait a year and do more testing before we finalize the diagnosis. His problems may be due to asynchronous development and avoidance due to perfectionism. He is too young to be sure.

It's more difficult for him having these problems because he is grade-skipped, and he struggles to keep up with the older kids in writing. It's always a balancing act.

All of your suggestions are great.
HWT is working for us so far. He gets frustrated and his perfectionism kicks in, but he is slowly making progress. Just this week, he drew his first picture with the objects colored in! At restaurants, he reads the coloring books, but he has never colored in them, so this was a milestone for us!

And don't let me get started on his ability to use utensils!
Or to button his own pants. Or to unzip his backpack.
He can add fractions, but putting on socks....no way!
~sigh~

Gymnastics has been really helpful for my dysgraphic-like DS 7. He does HWT and has an IEP for OT. But the gymnastics has been really helpful for the lack of core strength issues and improving his grip. He sits better and lasts longer writing. None of this helps with the automaticity but its amazing how much it factors in.

DeHe

I would also suggest swimming for coordination and strength work. My son is dyslexic and dysgraphic and swimming seems to help a lot. He is in DYS too so it is possible to get in with these issues. We had him tested with someone familiar with 2e stuff (we had no idea he was 2e before testing). I do suggest finding someone especially if you need a report for the school. The tester would likely have that info that would be useful.

My son is in both gymnastics and swimming, and we've noticed a definite improvement with both. We are working on doing planks at home with him to build up core strength. Keep the great suggestions coming.

It's amazing how many of us are in similar situations. I'm feeling more hopeful about the future with all your replies.

The doctor we have now is covered by insurance, so we will likely continue with him. There are excellent reasons for getting a second opinion (especially, if they use different tests and/or have a speciality in gifted children). Convincing my husband might be difficult though.

Is dysgraphia common with highly gifted children?

I think that's really what your ds needs metis; IEPs are meant for students who need individualized instructional support in addition to accommodations, and it sounds like your ds doesn't have any holes or weaknesses that require individualized instruction, so a 504 will be a-ok for him I did want to add, though, in case another 2e parent is reading this and wondering about their child who might need individualized instruction - it's not impossible to qualify for an IEP even when a student is achieving above grade level. BTDT, it took a ton of advocacy, but it is possible for students who need it.


It's been my experience that schools often look at 2nd/3rd grade (age 7/8) as some kind of magical ladder rung, which once a child is there, they feel confident enough to say he/she is either gifted or dyslexic, or ready to be tested for LD or whatever... and in the meantime, students who could really benefit from early help and accommodations are missing out on opportunities for learning not only in the areas of their challenge but in other areas too where the impact isn't so obvious. On top of all that there can be a very real hit on self-esteem when a child is struggling and not receiving help.

There is a chance your ds may be impacted by asynchronous development and perhaps you're seeing signs of perfectionism, but I'd be very careful to assume that's what you're seeing - but I'd be more inclined to think that's a possibility *if* you hadn't mentioned the other things you'd mentioned - difficulty with zippers, buttons etc. Those are the kinds of skills that perfectionists seldom worry about.. but they are skills impacted by fine motor coordination. Those were some of the early signs in our ds that he had developmental coordination disorder - I have no idea if that's an issue with your ds or not, if it's something else impacting fine motor, or if it's all not much of anything, but I think that since you are seeing difficulty with fine motor challenges in multiple areas, it's not too early to consider having him evaluated by a private neuropsychologist. You are getting some help through school now, and that's all good - but I think if you polled us 2e parents as a group, the majority of us would tell you that by far the best thing we ever did in terms of understanding what was impacting our children and how to really help them for the long term, you'd find many of us would tell you to make that neuropsych appointment now.


And that's one more reason I'd vote for a private eval now - because you've got him grade-skipped and he needs the skip to keep him intellectually challenged. The writing demands aren't going to get any easier, and he's going to be noticing the differences more and more as he sits in class working and sees what his classmates are able to do that he can't.

I would also suggest you get him typing at home asap - even if you find out ultimately that he's not dysgraphic and doesn't need it, it's a skill all of our kids will ultimately be using anyway. My nt kiddos were typing their essays and project reports for school (at school) by the time they were in second grade.



metis, this sounds SO much like my ds with DCD. Don't be too discouraged by it - if it is DCD, it will get better with lots of time and lots of repetition and gradual maturity. We coped a lot in the early years by doing things like having ds wear elastic waist pants with no zipper, velcro shoes, things like that. But oooooohhhh... it took so long getting ready for school because he was so slooooow getting dressed. Much better now - it does get better

Best wishes,

polarbear









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polarbear,

We did the neuropsych evaluation, that's how we have the IQ scores...just a part of that. He was formally diagnosed with DCD in fine motor (possibly dysgraphia, but it's too early to tell), but the district is still resistant. They are very comfortable telling me that he is highly gifted (he does stick out that way), but they are less willing to see his struggles. They call it a "relative weakness." (his academic scores jump from 99+, to 61 when writing is required!)

The neuropsychologist says that we will retest at 6yo and then will know for sure, but it's unlikely the diagnosis will change.

My son colored a restaurant menu for the first time yesterday! I almost cried. Part of me still hopes it's asynchronous development.

You've had some great advice, but I have the feeling that much of it is from people whose children have bigger challenges than yours. I want to ask: what's stopping you assuming it's just asynchronous development? You say at the start that his writing is ahead, although not as ahead as his other skills; so, while it's good to make sure he doesn't get held back unnecessarily, in what sense does he have a fine motor disability? I'm not understanding.

For context, my DS-now-9 started school at 4y10m writing no more than his name and that reluctantly (though reading chapter books etc.) He struggled through the first few years at school - I used to describe his writing as "age appropriate on a good day" - and he isn't grade skipped partly for this reason. But at the recent parents' evening teacher after teacher told me his writing was no longer a problem. (A couple did still say his writing is slow, and it's still a relative weakness, but it's no longer limiting what he can show he can do as it did.)

Is your DS interested in playing an instrument? If so I think I'd encourage that. I've heard that different kinds of hand strength don't always transfer, e.g. the strength you get from piano may not help with writing, but I'm not convinced, and in any case music has many other benefits, e.g. perseverance practice, social opportunities and a way to meet others of very different ages.

Cricket, metis mentioned other areas that were showing as fine motor delays (difficulty with buttons/zippers etc), and I think metis mentioned a low score on the Beery VMI - this is a visual motor integration test used by neuropsychologist that is impacted by fine motor challenges. It is possible to have DCD (fine motor disability) and still score ahead of average on the tests metis has mentioned and still be ahead of the game relateive to typically developing kids in academic areas that are impacted - but the challenge is in the discrepancy in skills - same challenge is their with asynchronicity, but with asynchronicity a child catches up over time, and with DCD a child needs a lot of extra help and repetition to develop the same sets of fine motor skills.

metis, I apologize - somehow in all the replies, I forgot that your ds is only 4 - I was thinking he was 6 already when I wrote my last reply. It sounds like really you are in a good place at school right now - it's great that they recognize his intellectual strengths! Typically it's the opposite (or recognizing *nothing at all*) that happens with 2e students and school staff.

Which grade is your ds in - K or 1st? Does he have a 504 or any accommodations for writing? Scribing is a very typical accommodation in early elementary.

Gotta run,

polarbear

To be clear, this wasn't me you were addressing this to I believe. I, too, have a child with a dysgraphia & dyspraxia dx who is performing well above grade level and who is grade accelerated b/c she is HG+ and compensates well. When you look at how fast she performs in comparison to what she can do, though, there is a huge discrepancy that didn't work itself out over time on its own. Well, that and two OT exams have confirmed the diagnoses.

ColinsMum,

My son plays piano. It's likely that has helped as well.

I'm curious...was your son 2 standard deviations below what was age-appropriate on all tasks requiring fine motor skills? Or was it just writing? And was it always near age-appropriate? That's the difference between a child with a relative weakness and a disability.

If I had ignored the problem, my son would no doubt qualify in full for an IEP and be significantly behind. Early intervention works. My son has had almost 3 years of the best therapy for this condition, and it's made a difference. He was caught by the state and is officially considered disabled.

That said, one still hopes it's asynchronous development, but 3 years of intensive therapy in a child without a disability would have made a greater difference, right? My son is heavily scaffolded to reach that 61%. Do you have to do the same for your son? Did it require any scaffolding to keep him age-appropriate?

This is what makes it impossible for me to assume it is just asynchronous development, although I still hope. I could stop therapy to experiment, but at what cost?

polarbear,

He is currently in Kindergarten and will be moving to first grade next year. We don't have a 504, because we are at a private school. I was thinking of waiting until he was 6, to see if there has been any improvement, before settling on the diagnosis and getting the 504.

The grade-skip has helped in some ways because it keeps my son motivated to work harder to keep up. What is scribing?

I'm sorry if I've offended you. Until now you had said that your son's writing is now ahead of his age, but you hadn't said that he had ever been very behind, nor that he has been having therapy for years. That's why I was confused.

Mine had trouble with all fine motor skills, yes. As best I remember, couldn't do his own buttons or zips when he turned 4, could just about manage chunky ones when he turned 5. Could just about do his own socks if you insisted and didn't mind waiting. Don't know how behind he was as he was never formally evaluated, just supported. I wonder now whether we were too relaxed, but we and his teachers just assumed he'd get there eventually. He has had specialist help with handwriting, which has helped so much that he doesn't need it this year.

I'm so sorry Cricket2! You're right, I was replying to Colinsmom's post - my brain clearly blipped on the names. I type faster than I think most of the time - sorry for the confusion!

polarbear

Our ds is at a private school now too, so we're flying without IEP/504 at the moment, and it's working well - the key, whatever the type of school, isn't the document so much as having a staff that is willing to allow your child to have what they need to be successful, and it sounds like you have that at your school - so really, from my perspective, as long as things are going ok at school and you aren't having to fight for things you feel your ds needs, the 504 can wait.


It's probably also keeping him engaged intellectually - we chose not to skip, and while I think it was the right choice for our ds, he did go through years of being bored in elementary school, and he didn't really start to fly and enjoy school until he was accelerated in middle school.


Scribing is when a person (teacher, aide, parent at home during homework) writes down the answers for a child rather than the child having to use handwriting to write. I did this with ds' teachers ok for several years in elementary on homework, and I still do it sometimes even now in middle school when he's doing the initial composition when writing essays and reports. He switched over to typing at school starting in 3rd grade, and everything he turns in now is expected to be typed, but even typing is a fine motor activity, and my ds is not a fast typist (he types faster than he writes, but it's still slower than most kids his age type).

Another accommodation ds had in elementary school was oral response to fluency tests (timed tests). The only "fluency" tests ds had were math facts tests - but we were locked in a battle with his school for the longest time trying to get them to see that he *knew* his math facts, he just was never going to be able to write them quickly.

polarbear

Colinsmum,
Not offended at all. You had good points, and your post gave me hope.

polarbear,
We had to grade-skip. Preschool was a disaster. Grade-skipping a boy, especially a boy with fine-motor problems, is a tricky thing at best. If we could have stayed with his age-peers and received academic accommodation, we would have.

I love all your ideas. A lot of Kindergarten is writing, but they aren't expected to do paragraphs yet, so I'll have to keep your suggestions in mind for next year. His teacher is convinced that he will overcome this, and she is putting in effort to that end.

My son is learning the value of hard work, and the importance of judging yourself based on progress, not perfection. Good lessons.

For anyone that comes across this post and has a child with similar weaknesses, I thought it would be helpful for me to update to give others hope.

My son's fine motor skills, after years of being significantly delayed and needing regular therapy, have suddenly completely caught up and become above-average with no further need for therapy. It was always asynchronous development (as we hoped), but he still needed help to get through it.

Also, I found out that he was given two processing tests during his IQ testing, one reliant on fine motor skills and the other not. His FSIQ can also be calculated with the alternate processing score and if so he meets Davidson's criteria for admission. Further testing done by his school (cogAT) has given similar results. He has met local Davidson Young Scholars (instant bonding) and we have been advised by their parents to apply so it's something we plan to do in the future when life is a little less busy.

Now that his fine motor skills are above-average, he has absolutely no problem with his grade-skip, other than that it's not enough anymore, and an additional grade-skip has been suggested to us by school officials.

So, if anyone has a child that also tested as disabled by their state and needed years of therapy, there is hope, because sometimes asynchronous development looks like this.

That is wonderful news metis and always great to see positive outcomes.