Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Elementary School Q-independent study thru schl district-K doing 1st

i recently moved DS6 from public kinder where he was absolutely miserable... to the districts independent study program-ISP.

i did this for various reasons:
1- the district gifted program coordinator said to keep DS in district so i could take advantage of their testing services, she actually suggested independent study& that i put him on list for testing this spring...

2-i planned to homeschool him anyhow, but thru ISP- all the books etc are provided (read: saves $$), also there is teacher support. also very important- he can still receive his Speech Services!

3-DS is able to move at his pace, and on paper he is kindergarten, but after assessing him, teacher gave him all 1st grade level work, &starting him @ middle of year in both reading/LA and math. (she thought 2nd grade, but i want to make sure he knows all the 1st requirements for testing purposes later on!)*i also want DS to start out in areas of review because his kinder teacher really did a number on him, he now thinks he is "stupid", so i want to empower him with what he does know, and have him feeling successful again, while at same time introducing some things he doesn't know.... admittedly hahaa he so far knows most everything in all the 1st gr subjects! i had NO idea he was so bright! but we are moving very quickly thru subject matter and will probably be ready for all 2nd grade material soon enough!

**my Question-
#1-has anyone else done this type of homeschool before? thru their districts ISP? how did it work out?

#2-the teacher wants ALL of his work. every math page, language arts/science etc workbook, writing assignments, etc and ALL ARTWORK-- to KEEP forever. she does not plan to return ANY of it. because he is doing 1st gr, he will be having tests (she administers) so wouldn't that qualify as her evidence?
how is this aspect handled thru your program?
*i have an issue with this in regard to his artwork, but she said i can take a picture!

#3-how did you handle course content? grading requirements? etc? the district teacher we meet with 1x/wk says i am the "teacher"- yet she will not accept anything verbally- for some things- we are discussing verbally, and this is much more indepth! i can really gauge if he has grasped the subject, and he also enjoys this, and it is also good for him (he's in Speech Therapy)... but she said she has no "proof" he did the assignment! even though I AM VERIFYING IT! my word is no good??? and even though he can discuss it with her! ?

heck, she won't even consider an outside piano class as music instruction! or kung fu & horseback riding, & hiking as PE credit! "where's my EVIDENCE?" is what she kept repeating! sorry but NO the kung fun instructor is not going to fill out a form & sign it each wk etc!

****i guess that is why true HOMEschooling is perhaps better than ISP? *sigh*

Taking the OP's questions in turn:

1) No, my DD is homeschooling, so I'm answering on the possibility that this may help you understand how homeschooling differs. It may not, because homeschool requirements vary. All of the information I have is specific to my state (LA).

2) If she said you can take a picture of art... can you also take a picture of the other subjects? You might try selling her on the idea that it's easier to send via email. Failing that, you could make copies. And failing that, you could try holding back some sheets, since I'm not sure you really want to keep everything forever anyway.

As for how that's handled in our program... the state does not require documentation until you want to renew your homeschool program for a new year, and since they do not want to be inundated with massive work folders from all corners, they require just a few samples from each subject area. The folder also has to include a list of all teaching materials used, and a simple outline of topics covered for each subject. Standardized test results are accepted in lieu of a folder, so that's one advantage you were expecting to find.

The bottom line, though, is that some form of physical evidence is going to be required, no matter what.

3) This is where your ISP option shows some value over ours, because in our homeschool program, curriculum is entirely up to the teacher. They do leave an option to borrow extra books from the local school, but the school can simply say no. Outside of the school, there are sets of curriculum available for purchase, but DW is basically developing her own, as she goes along, from whatever resources she comes across and approves.

The benefit is that DD gets a curriculum designed specifically for her. For example, whatever science topics they're doing, if it's something that captures DD's interest, they can go just as deep and broad as she likes. If it doesn't, they can do the minimum requirements and move on.

The downside is DW spends A LOT of her time on curriculum development.

Our program has no requirement for evidence of PE. That just sounds silly to me. My suggestion would be to check with the school for specifics on what qualifies as acceptable evidence. Will they accept a copy of the receipt when you pay the kung fu teacher? If they need something with a signature every time, you could make it easy on the kung fu teacher by putting together a simple sign-in sheet, fill in the dates, and then just ask the teacher to sign on the line each time. It may also be that they'll take your word for it, just not in verbal form... so a simple log, in which you record her activities, with date and time, would be an option.

How frustrating. It sounds like you have an inflexible person working in a program that should be flexible. Remember to document all of your conversations with this person -- sending an email confirming your understanding of what she said can be a non-threatening way to do this. You may have to go to her supervisor if the situation becomes untenable.

Artwork -- maybe you could give a little ground and concede that she can have some of the art work but ask if she will accept pictures of the artwork that you really love and want to keep. If proof is what she wants then pictures should suffice. I can't imagine that she really wants to keep a bunch this stuff, especially if it is 3D.

Oral responses -- I can understand her desire for some written work. I would ask if periodically you could record or scribe (type your son's oral responses) your in-depth oral discussions. There are many gifted kids this age who can't produce writing commensurate with their oral abilities. Also, if your kid is on an IEP for speech, maybe you could include oral responses as a goal so that you are fulfilling an IEP goal while meeting his gifted needs.

PE -- I agree with others that there should be some room for compromise here. Find out what her documentation requirements are and find our what your instructors are willing to do.

We don't homeschool, and our children are enrolled full-time in private schools, but they are also enrolled in a public independent school program that's available to homeschool and private school families in our state. As Dude mentioned, these programs are going to vary from state to state and possibly school district to school district, but hearing how other programs work might give you ideas to use when you talk to your program's staff.

Also, fwiw, it's possible that you might just have been assigned a very nit-picky grouchy teacher/staff person you're working with, so one thing you can do is to try to look for another contact in your program to call and discuss your concerns with.

This is how our program works:

Work samples: we have a certain # of work samples we are required to turn in for core classes such as Math, Language Arts, History, Science, etc. We can either turn in originals and ask that they be returned (if we want them back) or we can scan in the work and email it to the teacher.

PE - any type of organized sports, sports class counts to PE hours as well as simply putting together an individual sports plan and keeping a personal log of activity and time. The instructors our kids have are actually *very* willing to sign forms to show that our kids attended their classes on (whatever) dates etc. In our area, we are reimbursed for expenses as part of the program, and quite a few families in the program use their funds to pay for things like dance, gymnastics, soccer, as well as Kumon, Sylvan etc - so the instructors at these places are more than willing to sign our forms simply because it is good business and makes it possible to have students attend whose families might not otherwise be able to afford the lessons. We can also take pictures of the kids doing their sports, and I've also sometimes had my kids do health-type research projects as part of their PE work "samples".

Music - my children get credit for weekly piano lessons and piano practice. Our teacher has no issues with signing our forms.

For the forms for PE, music, etc - (i.e., non core classes) - the majority of the form has to be filled out by the parent (description of the activity, when the child attended etc)... so it's not a huge hassle to give it to an instructor and ask them to verify. We also have our receipts for sports/music/art classes that we can show as proof our students participated.

State testing - our kids are required to take the state tests each year, same tests they would take if they were enrolled FT in public school.

JMO, but I think it's reasonable for the program representative to require something more than a guarantee from you that your child has done work even if it's work you're only requiring verbal discussion/responses for as part of your curriculum. Our program would let you be creative in how you showed this type of work - you could record a discussion or question-answer session to turn in, or you could scribe... just think it through, come up with some way to show what your child has learned.

Do you know any other parents who've participated in this ISP? I found it helpful talking to other parents in our program to get ideas on how they handled grading/reporting/etc. It does take a bit of time for planning and administration (paperwork) on my part.

Best wishes,

polarbear

thanks to all of you!
it is great to hear how different states etc work in regard to homeschooling.
since i first posted this, i did meet up again with the "support teacher"...
it didn't go well!

first off, i came with a whole list of books that i needed, the CA treasures language arts program DS is doing, well the teacher edition that i am to follow, says read Bk A, then do assignment A etc, uh we don't have Bk A.
so i asked for the books the program refers to, the books that are required for DS to actually be able to do the assignments.

the ISP teacher came unglued.

he had also completed several weeks worth of math (in 2days) and so i needed more math (b/c he is just doing math in assessed areas of need, she opted to give copies of each chapter vs the actual book) so we went thru it, and need more.

she complained that he was going to fast. i said it was really more review, with only 1new concept being introduced...she said if he finishes all of the req'd work then i MUST supplement the same math with my own work- i should go and buy a workbook for him etc, and so i stated, i thought the program moved at his pace. if he learns it, or already knows it, and works thru it quickly, why should he be penalized by having to do more work, just because he got done early? ((though for math possibly more repetition will help to really consolodate new concepts ie time? so i'm ok with this))
but anyhow, she lost it.

then she got angry with me for being too high energy and demanding of *her* and ordered me to sit down and be quiet. after i picked my mouth up off the floor, i sat down, folded my hands on the table and just sat there. she then came to the table and slammed her hands down hard on it and hollered at me that i had just went from one extreme to the other. i calmly said, i respect you and i am doing what you asked. she said NO i can't just SIT there. i asked what would she like me to do?
she then went and got the teacher next door (high school support teacher) to come sit with us!

she then spoke to HS teacher as if i wasn't there. that she couldn't get thru to me. that she couldn't work with me. i just sat there. she then threw out all sorts of statements i had made in 3previous mtgs, but she stated them out of context of how i said them. i waited till she was done, and then i asked to speak, and very nicely restated HOW i had made my comments, just to clarify so HS teacher understood the context of why/how/what was said.

an example would be the artwork. my teacher says i refuse to give her any evidence of DS work. i clarified that by stating no, i was only concerned re artwork. that i did not understand why she needed ALL of it, and why copies or photo's wouldn't suffice. i stated art was very personal. HS teacher states that art really isn't a subject that even matters! and of course copies will work for them, and that they only need samples not ALL of it- all of this contradicting what my teacher had told me! & she was pissed as she stared down at table! (somehow her friend HS teacher was helping me! hahaa)
i then said i believed that ART was a very important subject...and i was fully willing to submit samples via copies etc, and they both then backtracked stating oh yes art was very important.

i further clarified i had no problem giving teacher ALL of his other work samples! and that if i wanted any for personal files, then i would make copies, but she was welcome to all his work.

HS teacher then said that they weren't used to working with parents like me, and that parents that really wanted to homeschool, and really teach their kids, that this independent study program didn't ever really tend to work out.
i was a little dumbfounded as to what to reply to that. but came up with, i care very deeply about DS education, while i never planned to be his teacher, unfortunately because of his accelerated level the traditional public school setting hadn't worked out and had actually damaged DS entire sense of self.

so then teacher throws out that i am demanding my kindergartner work in 1st grade. i let her talk. then i said- you ASSESSED him and suggested this level! you sugg higher level but i said no let's start in 1st! because i wanted to be sure he had a good foundation. i also stated that i didn't care what #grade they wanted to put on him, that i only wanted him to be at his current level, and to be presented with appropriate level work, etc.

then she throws in my son's autism. as if she just learned about it! she said she didn't know he was autistic. she said she'd never have guessed it after mtg with him etc, and she told me- i don't know if i can do this! because he is autistic he should just be doing kinder work. not be ahead. i was like, how exactly does his autism even come into play here? you just said yourself you didn't see autism. you assessed him at his skill level. you know what he is capable of. now because you realize he is autistic- he can't be also intelligient? i mentioned this was a sad reality of this school district! that a special needs child couldn't also be academically advanced. (i didn't use gifted), i then said there were a lot of 2E kids in our world. HS teacher agreed completely.

i said i was completely willing to work at this, that i needed to learn her style, what expectations are etc adn also state requirements, and finally that i was willing, and that i wanted to work with and meet the teacher -but felt we should meet in the middle, she also needed to be willing to work with me! she can't say i am teacher and then demand i do exactly her schedule, that i deserved flexibility and that i also deserved respect etc yadayada. i had HS teacher full sympathy by this point.she said goodbye and left.

all of a sudden teacher starts calling me honey and sweetiepie. complete change. and oh how smart DS is and i am doing such a good job and she's not worried at all about anything.

it was bizarre to say the least!!!!!!!!!!
i was sitting there wondering if this was what unmedicated bipolar was? i was also a teensy bit scared. i just felt like she had tried to manipulate me by bringing HS teacher in, when that failed (i am stronger than that- much!) she was trying a new tactic... so maybe i felt sickened more than scared?

oh- also re specific stuff ment'd above-
PE- she wants DS to draw picture of what he did and write a sentence about it, on other side, i write down what he did and he must do specific exercises like cartwheels. DONE.

schoolwork EVIDENCE- again, she can have it all. except art. and now i know she was full of crap when she demanded every little bit of work. i will however give copies of art.

ORAL- she wants it all written. DS may have some disability there, and i plan to do some oral- there will be plenty of his actual written Evidence. and i will scribe it. if she refuse to accept it, i will call IEP ammendment and get that added to his IEP.

WHY DO I WANT TO DO ISP?
yes, the whole curriculum is free. that is a nice word. but the real reason is because he has an IEP & receives SLP thru the district. he can only receive it b/c he is still considered in the district, private or homeschool (which i do have affidavit for) kids do not receive any services.
and finally- another important reason is because i can request the full psych testing this spring. also paid for by district, the full IQ w/ not just abilities but any disabilities etc.
*the coordinator of the gifted program for the district actually is the one who suggested ISP for DS, so that he could receive this testing. we all know how spendy it is.
*********************
last but not least,
in one of the largest school district in US? there are only 3 elementary teachers that do the ISP, i picked this one b/c she is in fairly safe area and closest proximity to me. i spoke to her on phone, we met, she seemed very agreeable.

i wanted to take today to rethink everything, but plan to make a call to the district main office tomorrow...
just to make sure i am understanding all the rules etc for ISP.

i do feel this program will work for DS, and myself, he is already so happy and enjoying learning again...

about the email and documenting everything- it was all done verbally. but perhaps i should send a follow- up email to teacher just to restate facts as i know them to be, to give her opportunity to clarify?
she will not most likely correspond via email- ahhh they are well aware that it can be used as written proof. hmmm maybe at next meeting, i will pull out tape recorder and ask for her permission to record our conversation? if she refuses, well i will record that- and why would she refuse if she was being truthful and forthright? right?

thanks everyone.
happy holidays

Yes, you should send a follow up email. (I hope this goes without saying, but your follow up email should use standard punctuation and grammar, rather than the way you write here.) Send it to both teachers if you can find the email address for her "backup." Thank them for the productive meeting, and say that you are just describing what was decided, so that you can be sure that you understand it. Lay out the requirements as you understand them - what he is expected to do, and what you are expected to submit, subject by subject. If you want to post it here first and get critiques, I'm sure that many of us will be happy to help.

If your want to keep working with this woman, I would start with the email and see how it goes. You can keep the tone cooperative and make it clear that you are just trying to keep everyone on the same page. I've had teachers thank me for my efforts to summarize the discussion and layout responsibilities with due dates, especially when other staff are involved. I think that whipping out a tape recorder at this point will put your relationship irretrievably in the hostile category.

thank you elizabeth, and knute, yes i will do the follow-up email, i wrote it already in my mind and sounds solid but i think i will take your advice and post it here for tweaking as needed.

and most definitely, i will write in (mostly) correct letter format,caps/punct whole bit

i think also just having my stated email summarizing meeting, having sent it out to teacher, whether she replies or not, will in itself be some type of "hard proof" that i am making an effort and also giving her opportunity to clarify, as well...
i don't need to be her friend, but i do want a happy working relationship, and i do want to be able to trust her...
thanks again all

Catching up with your journey after your comment on my post about my ds in Kindy. The teacher sounds extraordinarily difficult. I hope you can make it work until spring. If you continue with it, maybe they can transfer teachers? It sounds like this one is terribly inconvenienced by her role in ISP.