Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Input on WISC /WIAT results and dr. recommendation

Hi everyone,

I am pretty new to this site and am trying to wrap my head around my son's recent test results and recommendation by the dr. who completed his testing.

We decided to have my 7 year old son privately tested as he has expressed some boredom this year and the work he is doing seems quite below his ability level. His teacher this year said she would differentiate for him based on his MAP scores but that never happened and my husband and I feel we need to talk to the school to ensure a better fit next year in 2nd grade. We thought the testing would help clarify for us where he stood and help us figure out how to approach the school. I should mention he was tested for the gifted pullout program last year in K but did not get in based on his CogAT scores which were in the low 120s with 132 being the requirement.

His testing was done by a psychologist with over 30 years of experience testing gifted children (she was actually recommended on this site) and my son had a great experience with her.

His scores are as follows:

WISC IV
VCI: 124
PRI: 139
WMI: 138
PSI: 126
FSIQ:140

WIAT III
Oral Language: 136
Total Reading: 134
Basic Reading: 146
Written Expression: 125
Mathematics: 142
Math Fluency: 125
Total Achievement: 137

The psychologist recommended placing my son in a gifted magnet school at a neighboring district that offers self contained classes for highly gifted children. This would require that we move to be able to attend this school. Besides the fact we would need to move, the minimum FSIQ required for admittance is 140 and though my son meets that requirement I am concerned that his VCI is his lowest score and I have heard that score most highly correlates with academic achievement and I wonder if he would really be a good fit for this type of school or would most of the children be working at a higher level if that makes sense?

If we keep him where he is at, our neighborhood public school, we will have to make some changes but are not really sure what we need to do. He was tested again for the gifted program this year but we have not gotten the scores back. If his CogAT scores are not high enough we can probably appeal with his WISC results but the gifted program is a pullout program of only a couple hours per week. The tester said that would not be enough for him and I tend to agree. I think he needs quite a bit of differentiation or acceleration and needs to work at a faster pace if that is possible.

I am just not sure what to do at this point. I feel a little overwhelmed. I just want to make sure he maintains his love of learning and that we do the right thing for him. He has things he enjoys about school, art and music, and seems to do well socially.

If anyone has any opinions based on his scores and what you would recommend I would really appreciate it. I plan to talk to the school next week and I am trying to figure out what I should say and ask for.

Thank you for taking the time to read this! I appreciate any advice.

Moving for a school is a major undertaking and quite frustrating if the school doesn't work out. How many grades in the school? How long would it last? Does having the minimum IQ guarantee admission? Can the admission be revoked? Are other parents associated with the school happy? Would the move be costly for the family or other family members?

From the kids whose scores I know and discussions with many parents, there is a strong correlation between VCI and academic achievement. Much of early elementary is noticing patterns in words, things that go together, organizing writing into concepts and themes, taking main concepts and ideas from reading, etc., which relies on verbal reasoning heavily.

However, your son's scores are solid and pretty even for IQ and achievement and excellent. I'd guess most GT schools would fit pretty well, but some local schools will offer great options and others are terrible. It truly depends on the actual options you have and your son and his personality and interests and capacity to learn more than the numbers from the tests. The test results are great and I wouldn't be afraid of a GT school, even with the "lower" VCI.

Don't be intimidated by this, it's very common for Highly Gifted kids to score well below their ability on CogAT.
That's great news - really excellent to have a tester who is experienced with gifted kids. Glad he had a great time. My son did too.
Are you renting now or do you own? Have you spoken to the neighboring district? Better yet, would the Psychologist be willing to call and ask on your behalf?

No one wants their child to be the weakest kid in any grouping. The funny thing about the bell curve is that when one is dealing with the tail, anyplace where a cut off is drawn, two thirds of kids will fall right up against that cut off. So you son will be in the vast majority.
That is true, but with you child's strong verbal and very strong scores in the other areas my gut says he will fit in well. If his verbal was 'truly low' say 115 or less, then I would be more cautious.
It makes sense, but since the numbers look and the tester feels he's a fit, I think it's a good possibility. Good and observe the classrooms and see what kind of work the kids are doing. What books are on the classroom library shelf? In general I don't like the idea of moving long distances for a school, but if it isn't too disruptive to your life, it sounds better than a gradeskip, which is what you would need locally to keep his challenged and developing good work ethic.
I agree three. Differentiation is fine if your child is within a short distance of the rest of the children, otherwise it tends to rely on having a 'superstar' teacher. That happens once in a while, but hard to rely on.

Good luck, Glad you found us! Welcome.
Love and More Love
Grinity

I think it is inappropriate for the only recommendation from a psychologist to be that you have to move to a different school district. I mean, there are other things keeping you in your home, I presume. Did she have a plan B, or was that the only recommendation?

Do you have any firsthand knowledge of the pullout program? Some are quite good at differentiation, others not so much. It would be worth observing the class and perhaps speaking with some of the parents. Moving is a big step.

Thank you all so much for your comments!

Those are some great questions Kaibab...the program seems to have a good reputation with parents speaking very positively about it. The program is for grades K-12 with it being a self contained class in elementary school and then in middle and high school the students take gifted courses along with AP classes or can attend one of five academies: Math, Engineering, Technology and Science, International Business, Biomedical Professions, Media Arts Technology or Law I believe. I think they accept anyone with the required score but am not sure if admission can be revoked, that is something I need to ask. I plan to go visit the elementary school and will ask that while there.

The town is actually where my husband works and is fairly close to where we live now. I work from home so that will not be an issue. DS is also an only child so do not have siblings to consider and financially we would be okay. If we sell our house. And with the market the way it is that may not be an easy feat. Plus we enjoy our neighborhood and have good friends here so I am not necessarily eager to move. And as you all have pointed out what if we move and it does not work out? That really concerns me. However, I really want to do what is best for him so will definitly give it some serious consideration. And I have not yet tried to work out a solution with the school he is currently attending. So there could be options there I do not know about. But talking to other parents it seems very limited. I do not believe they will entertain a grade skip and all signs seem to indicate that they feel the GT program they have is enough. But to be fair I have not yet tried so I do plan to talk to the principle next week and discuss options. Maybe I will be pleasantly suprised!

This is all so new and so I am really just trying to figure it all out. I was not a GT child and so do not have the personal background to help guide me.

ElizabethN she did not offer alot of options when she sent me the report. She encouraged us to put him in outside art and music classes and that he might enjoy learning a second language. But as far as his education she just said that he needs to be challenged and recommended that district. When we spoke after the testing she said that a gifted pullout program of only a couple of hours a week is probably not going to be of much benefit to him and that it would be hard to keep him challenged unless some extensive differentiation or subject acceleration happened. She did leave it open for me to contact her so maybe I should call her and ask for additional advice on other ways I could meet his needs. I wish she would have given me a more detailed report with some more concrete recommendations. I think I will reach out to her on this.

Thank you Grinity for the comment about him likely being in the majority. I had not thought of the bell curve that way so that really helps!

Thank you again for all your advice!

Thank you oncegifted for your comment. I agree, a move is a big step and if I can make it work with the school he is currently attending that would be wonderful. I do plan to talk to the school so will get more details about the GT program and will ask about observing a class.

Moving is a big step, but the Advocacy process is a giant hassle as well. I think you are on the right track to explore both possibilities. I think talking to the local school is worth a try - particularly because moving may take a year or more.
Also, be sure to visit actual functioning classrooms. You'll learn SO much. Consider renting 'studio space' in the neighbor district if that would qualify you so you can try before you buy.And explore the have your cake and eat it too option by asking the tester to ask if you can attend from out of district. Paying 5K a year may be cheaper than moving.


It may be that the local school would be 'pretty darn good' even with the tiny bit of pull out program. The fact that there even IS a neighboring district with a full time gifted program suggest to me the possibility that you live in an affluent area.

So here's the main question - is the school you now live in, in a so called 'SuperZIP'?
Read this article to see what I'm talking about and ask yourself if this applies to your school -http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577170733817181646.html

Bottom Line: the economic class divide in the US has grown so much since the 1960's and I not only dislike this, I fear for the future because of it, BUT being in a SuperZIP community can work really well for kids with IQ 130-140. The local pull out itself might be totally inadequate, but if the school also cluster groups the pull out kids during the rest of the day, and the teacher are used to having several kids with 130-135 IQs in their classrooms, you have a much greater odds to having your child's needs met without having to move. So that is something to consider.

(For the record, it's also true that working class districts can sometime be terrific for VG (very gifted) kids because they are more open to the parent's requests for gradeskips and independent study options because they are keenly aware of their limitations. For kids with over 145 IQ this situation can be even better than SuperZIPs because apparently there will always be kids who are 'too different' some because of twice exceptionalitiy, some from personality, some because of High LOG (Levels of giftedness)

So ask yourself questions like - how many schools does the neighbor district pull from to get their self contained classroom? Is it about the same number of kids that end up at your local High School? For some areas, self contained classrooms are a way to get the kids who are fated to be in those AP classes together for high school together sooner. For other areas the self contained classroom pulls from a population 10 times higher than your local high school and represent an opportunity that is locally rare. Either way a well run self contained classroom with the cut off of 140 is a pretty cool opportunity, but in judging 'how much worse your local option is' the distinction is meaningful.

What are the average SAT or ACT or State exams scores in both districts?
(If they are similar, that means that you have a similar student population to start with, so if the self contained classroom is from a group that is similar in size to your local high school, that your high school will have similar kids.)

I'm summarizing a lot here, years of thinking about this topic, so ask questions if I've lost you, ok?

Love and More Love
Grinity

Thank you so much Grinity for your post! You gave me so much to think about.

After reading about superzips I would say that while we do not compare to Georgetown necessarily the area is known for having a pretty educated population, I believe 53% of the population has a bachelor's degree or higher. There are alot of people who work as engineers or in technology due to some large companies that are headquartered here. The average SAT score at the public high school my son will attend if we stay in the area is 1,748 so above the national average. The area has a strong Indian and Asian population, 14% Asian community, so there is some nice diversity.

You gave me some great questions to research and ask when I go meet with the neighboring school so thank you!

I meet with the principal at the current school next week so we will see what he says. Also, my son just got his cogAT scores and he has been accepted to the GT program. His scores jumped up above the 132 requirement this time. This may hold more "weight" with the school since they seem to put so much stock in that test, which I do not agree with. But maybe that combined with his WISC scores will give me clear evidence he needs some accomodations.

Thank you again for your insight I really appreciate it.