Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Ivies cheaper than some state schools

The Ivies only very recently changed their financial aid policies. Most of them made significant changes as the recession started and alumni began questioning the size of their endowments and the requests for alumni giving.

I have an Ivy League undergrad degree and a "public Ivy" masters an the coursework for a doctorate. The rigor of my undergrad degree is much greater than even the doctoral coursework and the comps I did for the PhD.

I attended MIT for undergrad and grad school, and getting good grades in grad school was much easier than it was in undergrad. Just for comparison.

I wonder if it depends on the type of course, but my husband would disagree and has a direct head to head comparison. He lived in a state where he was able to take college courses at State U as a high schooler (a State U that is considered to be academically rigorous and respected nationally). He then went to an Ivy for undergrad. Said it wasn't even close in terms of how easy the State U math and science courses were compared to the courses at the Ivy. He was able to fly through his assignments for State U courses often on the bus home, whereas his Ivy courses literally had him up against some of the top students in the world in certain subject areas and he had to spend hours/nights/weekends to achieve good grades.

From my own perspective being faculty at a State U. and having attended an Ivy-equivalent top engineering undergrad, I feel overall there are just a higher percentage of those profoundly/exceptionally gifted kids that blow your socks off at the Ivy/Ivy-equivalents than what my husband or I encountered at State U. Not every kid is going to do well though in an environment where such a high percentage are super-bright over-achievers, it can be overwhelming/depressing/a struggle to not be "the top" and can irreparably damage some kids' self-esteem. I certainly had to re-adjust my self-perceptions/identity, but for me, the 'downside' of no longer being "the best" was far outweighed by the upside of being with like-minded peers who "got me."

It may be better to put college money in a 529 plan (that's what I am doing) than in a regular taxable account owned by the parent, because the gains in 529 plans are tax-free when used for college. The impact of a 529 account on financial aid is not larger than the impact of other parental non-retirement assets, according to http://www.savingforcollege.com/questions-answers/article.php?article_id=124

Bostonian, we have considered 529s but were advised against them. Now I sort of forget why, but this may have something to do with it:


Not saying we made the right choice, however. It's still rather murky to me. We really ought to consult a professional about this some time soon.

There's always "political risk" in using government tax-favored programs, which adds to the murkiness.

I am apparently the only contrarian in this bunch, as I pointed out earlier that my undergrad at the University of Kansas (KU) was much harder than grad school at MIT.

I will expand on this because it's related to the cost of university education. At least back then, KU competed for students by showering them with scholarships. I received enough to cover tuition, room, board, and had spending money left over. I was also accepted to other schools including Caltech (but not MIT) for undergrad, but that would been a pretty significant hardship on my parents, so the choice was pretty easy at the time.

The honors cohort I took most of my classes with was easily stronger than most students I saw at MIT. Those that went to grad school after KU ended up at places like Stanford, MIT, Cornell, UPenn, etc., so from that perspective there was no disadvantage. In my opinion, the only difference between a good state school with an honors track and an elite school is with the first set of job opportunities right after school. There are a number of companies that only recruit at the elites, which I learned about after MIT.

If finances are an issue, as they were when I grew up, you can do far worse than accept full ride scholarships at a good public/private school with a good honors program. Just don't expect it to be easy.

[/quote] I am apparently the only contrarian in this bunch, as I pointed out earlier that my undergrad at the University of Kansas (KU) was much harder than grad school at MIT. [/quote]

So I couldn't resist replying because my background leaves me uniquely positioned to do so - I went to HS in Kansas and many of my years-long classmates in middle/high school went on to enroll in KU's undergrad honors program while I went to MIT for undergrad. While these high school colleagues of mine were unquestionably bright, it also was true that it wasn't difficult for me to stand out amongst them throughout my secondary school career (and some of these ended up being the 'top' performers at the KU honors program). The undergrad students at MIT, however, (emphasis on undergrad) were at a whole different level. That's not to say that every single student I encountered at MIT was brilliant, but I had never been in 'shock and awe' at someone's abilities before arriving there. Also some of this is major-dependent, and I mingled with undergrads across multiple majors. There are some majors/departments that are less academically rigorous. But as a whole, I stand by my observation/experience that there are a higher percentage of phenoms and PG kids at MIT than at State U. Whether that is a good type of environment for your college bound kid is another question . And - it is true that my friends who did less well than me in high school but aced the KU honors program did get "better" or more prestigious grad school spots than I did. While initially discouraging to me, those tough years at MIT as an undergrad have made everything following (2 graduate degrees) seem like a piece of cake.

I think ultimately it's very person-dependent as to what works; for me I needed that undergrad environment where I was challenged unlike ever before or since, to develop an actual work ethic and drive, to humble me and allow me to form an identity beyond just academics. For others the shock of going from being "the smartest" at your high school to "average" at MIT can be too much for their psyche and they collapse under the pressure with that loss of identity, and so a university with less intensity/lower percentage of phenoms might be better, where they can stand out and still distinguish themselves, and likely get into an elite graduate school.

I would totally agree that an elite school does give an inside track to job opportunities - tons of recruiters came to campus and focused on those elite schools only. The other advantage I would add (which could also be an advantage of an elite grad school) is the connections made during that time - my husband and I both are from 'modest' backgrounds but were able to mingle and form friendships and rub elbows with people who have accomplished and are accomplishing amazing things, and already have some impressive potential internships set up for our own children .

I have zero experience with this honors track thing. How does it work? Surely you don't only take classes with other students in the honors track?

I wonder if the caliber of students at state school honors tracks varies by state. For instance, bright kids who might attend UMass certainly have a lot of other good local options, while I'd imagine bright kids in KS have far fewer high-quality local schools to choose from.

I was in the honors program at my State U and indeed, in that program, you do take all your core curriculum classes together as a cohort. They admitted only about 120 kids per year and we divided into small discussion-based classes with fellow honors students in the 60 "core" program hours.

We were always taught by actual professors, not TAs, in the program and the core hours were in literature, history, philosophy, math, science and economics and two colloquium classes. Outside of our core hours we were free to design any degree plan we wanted, within certain broad requirements. Our offical major was the honors program so we coud specialize in one area of or explore with our other hours, outside foreign language and civics requirements. It was a great educational experience.