Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment FINALLY! test results and answers, sort of

Butter is 8, in third grade. Last year she scored 99.8% on the Raven Matrices, but she doesn't fit the "typical" gifted profile, the kind the schools like to see, you know?

WISC-IV

VCI 142 99.7%
PRI 137 99
WMI 126 96
PSI 121 92
FSIQ 141 99.7
GAI 148 99.9

subtests
VCI
similarities 99.6%
vocabulary 99.6
comprehension 95
information 98
word reasoning 98%

PRI
block design 98%
picture concepts 95%
matrix reasoning 99%
picture completion 99%

WMI
digit span 91%
arithmetic 95%

PSI
coding 63% (NOT A TYPO!)
symbol search 98%

WIAT-III

composites
oral lang 144 99.8%
basic reading 128 97%
mathematics 122 93%

subtests (grade equ because that's what I wanted to know. and our state is in the lowest 10% of standards for the nation!)

listening comprehension gr 9.3
reading comprehension gr >12.9 (NOT A TYPO!)
math problem solving gr 4.9
sentance composition gr 10.6
word reading gr 8.0
pseudoword decoding gr 7.2
numerical operations gr 4.0
oral expression gr 12.0
spelling gr 4.7

Sooooooo what does this all mean? Psychologist says fine motor issue and reccomends OT (which is not a stand alone service in our district and we have NO chance of getting probably). This kid HATES to write and will really work to get out of it, but when she did it, she can do it like a TENTH GRADER?!?!?! Plus, she LOVES arts and crafts, sewing, clay, oragami and playing guitar, which I think would NOT be a kid with a fine motor issue? And I guess there is some processing speed issue as well? Which would explain why anything timed was always a problem for her...for the WIAT results, the lower ones, the psych says its probably partly exposure (she's probably gotten 100% on almost every spelling test since they started having them, in kinder), spontaneous whole word reading (as opposed to learning phonics, so she's not good at sounding out new words) and last year they changed math cirriculum and I think it's just terrible...

But even her lowest WIAT's are 4th grade and we think we want to accelerate her, not sure yet...I'm really concerned about the reading comprehension, oral exp and sentance comp being so high. She also got a perfect score on last year's state test in language arts.

We will meet with the principal of the home study program we are using, part of our district. and the school psychologist. But it's not likely we will get an IEP...I'm concerned about getting some things like keyboarding and time adjustments in writing NOW, while we are in a more accomodating environment. Other than that, I'm not sure what we want or need and I'm sure the principal is going to ask...

your advice or two cents is appreciated here

It's late here so what I have time to write might not make much sense lol! But fwiw, my ds has a similar profile in terms of dip in processing speed with a low coding score (his dip is a little larger/lower); he has a diagnosis of developmental coordination disorder with fine motor skills are impacted, and dysgraphia. So here are a few jumbled thoughts for you -

"This kid HATES to write and will really work to get out of it, but when she did it, she can do it like a TENTH GRADER?!?!?!" -

It's important to remember that this type of achievement testing measures very specific skills in each subtest. I think the subtest you're referring to is the sentence composition - I'm not familiar with the WIAT (we've always had the WJ-III) but, I'm guessing it's probably a test where she's given a few words or pictures and told to make a sentence out of them. It really isn't a test of the full depth of what makes up "writing" and "written expression". My ds has always scored extremely high on this type of writing achievement subtest, yet he has a severe challenge with generating written expression - he can create simple sentences out of a string of discrete pictures, but when he was the same age as Butter if you gave him an open-ended writing assignment and he's years behind grade level if he could even get started.

It's helpful also to remember that the grade level indicated on achievement tests of this type doesn't mean you could plop the child with this score down in the middle of that grade of that type of related class and they'd be fine - it's a statistical measure that tells you that compared to the sample of students in that grade that the test is normed on, your child is performing at that level relative to the rest on that one specific task.

Our ds' achievement test scores were also very scattered like your dd's are. It helps to make sense out of them to group them by response type and prompt type - was the question asked orally or did it require reading etc and was the response oral or written, did it require handwriting or circling, and was the subtest timed. You may find a really strong pattern emerges where time and handwritten response subtests fall lower in scores than the others - which would fit in with the lower score on coding (which is a timed "handwritten" test).

Last thing about the achievement tests - your dd's scores are all very strong in spite of the scatter. I am sorry I can't remember what you've written specifically about her situation in school in the past - if she's happy and doing well, then having that dip in processing speed might not mean anything really - it could be just that she's a perfectionist. However, the psych seemed to think there was a fine motor component - did he follow up with any other testing that shows it as fine motor? Our ds had tests that included things like finger tapping, visual motor integration etc that helped to define his dip in processing speed as fine motor related.

You mentioned whole-word reading - that's how our ds learned to read to. FWIW it might be worth reading a bit about stealth dyslexia and see if it fits your dd at all. The testing profile might fit - our ds fits both the testing profile and the Eide's description stealth dyslexia.

Re acceleration - we didn't grade-skip our ds, and for him, that was a good thing in early elementary *because* of the impact of his fine motor issues. It definitely wasn't ideal - I wish in hindsight I'd advocated much more strongly for him to have grade-level acceleration in the subjects that he is strong in (math/science/reading). However... his writing skills were troubling for him even in with same age peers and we needed to deal with that first and foremost at the time. We did, however, do our best to after-school him in math and science so that once we'd figured out how to help accommodate his handwriting challenge and helped him bring his written expression skills up quite a bit, he would be ready to accelerate and he's essentially doing that in secondary school although he's still technically at his peer-age grade level he's been able to move up in subject areas where he is strong. One thing that is still a bit of a difficulty though is the processing speed - he's smart for sure, but he works slowly, even using his laptop etc. So even though he's able to handle subject matter way ahead of grade level, handling the homework and classwork demands of higher level classes hasn't been all that I'd want it to be for him - he's spending much more time on homework each night than his classmates simply because getting what he knows out of his head is a slow process!

Re loving arts/crafts/sewing etc - you can do all those things and more and still have fine motor challenges. Our ds loves to draw and also make clay model figures. His drawings are amazing - the type of detail that makes full-grown adults go "Wow!". His clay models are so tiny and full of detail that old folk like me need a microscope to see everything he includes - and it's all very realistic, very true to life, very much in proportion etc. Yet his handwriting is a mess. The thing is, they are all very different processes. My ds would tell you that when he draws, he's drawing what he sees as he goes, but when he uses handwriting he has to remember how to make each letter - and that takes a ton of concentration for him.

Our ds did go through almost a year of handwriting OT and it helped a lot. If you can't get OT through your school district, see if you can get it covered under your medical insurance. If you can't do that, consider paying for an OT eval and asking for suggestions of things you can work on at home to help with fine motor skills.

We were not able to get OT through our school district. To qualify for OT, you have to have an IEP and a need for Speech services too. Crazy! DS did eventually qualify for an IEP under Specific Learning Disability (it took quite an extended period of advocating and we heard over and over again "we've never had kids with test scores like these" etc).. but he has a diagnosis from the private provider, and he clearly needed individualized instruction in writing so we just dug in, read up on wrightslaw etc, talked to our local advocates and went through the process.

You don't have to have an IEP to get accommodations such as keyboarding and extended time - routine accommodations such as those can usually be put into place via a 504, and that process can happen very quickly when you have a professional's eval report.

Don't worry too much about trying to figure out everything your dd will need right away - start with the obvious basics that have either been suggested by the psych who did the testing or things that you've seen that you think your dd needs. Then as time goes by you'll probably find what works, what doesn't, come up with other or different ideas etc, and you can put them into place as you go.

One more random thing - this just popped into my head and may not be worth even asking, but you mentioned your state is a low performer in terms of standardized tests (I think that's what you meant?) Do you think there's a chance that her processing score dip and fine motor issues that the psych is seeing might be related to simply not having been taught the proper way to hold a pencil, things like that, lack of instruction?

Sorry that got so long - I hope some of it made sense!

polarbear

Hi-
My DD9 had a similar profile with IQ, grade level stuff, etc. She was tested at age 7, second grade. She had a lower processing speed as well, about 80th %ile compared to 98%ile+ in everything else. This explained her frustration with timed tests.

Her handwriting was horrendous and she hated to write. Our pscyh explained that DD's thoughts were racing, particularly when she was asked to do a writing assignment. Her hand, while developmentally normal, simply couldn't keep up with her brain. He suggested that by age 9-10, her handwriting would improve naturally, simply due to physical development. We have seen a HUGE improvement in handwriting within the last six months.

So, some of it could be that butter's hands just need to catch up to her brain
I know that was the case with our DD.

Good luck!

yes yes and YES polarbear!

She was having a TERRIBLE time at school and the writing problems like you describe. Especially the guided writings. If she liked the topic, she could go on well, but she usually found them uninteresting. The drawing also, like you're saying about your son she has incredible attention to detail. She did some writing the other day that blew me away and when I asked about it, she basically said how long it took her because she had to concentrate. She often holds items like cups, silverware and pencils *differently* than the other kids and has a strange way of forming letters (from the bottom up).

We are on a home study program, which has really been a miracle for her. She has an optional 3 hour class day and lots of clubs and opportunities to socialize. At home we can keyboard to our heart's content and she actually handles more difficult tasks with writing well when I put out a timer. The timer also rerminds me to not nag her, but give her some time to work things out. I don't really care if she has sloppy handwriting, plenty of adults do too and that is not really a "grade".

We tried in vain at our old school to get any accomodations, but they only wanted to discuss Butter's "behavior problem". Our new "school" is very different, but I also have to think ahead to the time when she might go back to "regular" school. I also want appropriate accelerations maybe a whole grade in this particular set up. The writing issues, etc are more easily addressed in the home.

We do have a neighbor who is an OT and interested in Butter, so we might be able to work something out with her. We have the same issue you are describing with the school and OT...we are also in the middle of open enrollment for our health care plan, so we might be able to get that consult with the developmental ped after all...

This new school has really made a HUGE difference for all of us, so that's great and we are planning to leave her there at least two years, though they do go through 12th...and she is playing guitar and violin and taking 3 hours of art on Friday, so I think all these things are contributing to a more positive school experience and helping in a way we would have never got at our old place...

re your last paragraph, again YES! it's actually that our state is 46 of 50 in terms of how they handle the standards. We have low standards but also, the former school was on the verge of closure and last year, the focus had really changed to "teaching to the test" which I see now was so incredibly PAINFUL for my child, who needs to explore topics, not just throw facts back. They spent so much time trying to get the low performing kids to minimum levels, there was no time left to address individual needs, like we were told they would.

One thing to keep in mind on processing speed is that you CAN improve it with practice. My son got a 99% on just about every part on the WISC except PSI which was 40%.
For the last year, we have been doing flashcards and occasional timed math tests. (For some reason, thank goodness, his class isn't doing timed math tests but I'm sure they will come back). I think he's maybe in the top 1/3 now on the timed math tests- OK, not great, but ALOT better.
You can improve these skills by practice.

The WIAT II writing portion was a persuasive essay, as I recall. Students tended to do well on it if it was a subject they found interesting. There were some points for spelling and grammar, but I believe content was weighted more than mechanics. I'm no longer giving academic assessments, so I haven't given the WIAT-III.

Fortunately or unfortunately, schools under NCLB are not judged by their mean or average test scores. They are judged by the percentage of their students who make the cut for "Proficient". Losing one brilliant student doesn't make much of an impact on that percentage, but programs targeted to gifted kids might just act as a magnet that would.

Yep. A kid who answered all items correctly and scored at the top of "advanced" counts exactly the same as a kid who barely made the cutoff to be "proficient." What's rewarded is pulling kids with borderline scores up into "proficient," not getting proficient kids labeled advanced.

Whether or not you can improve the skills that are reflected in the subtest processing speed depends on the reason they were low to begin with. Some kids, like my ds, have neurological disorders which impact their ability to do those tasks and which no amount of practice will significantly improve. They might improve incrementally, but remember that every other neurotypical child is also seeing an increase in ability to do timed tasks as they mature too and that's reflected in test norms.

Please know I'm not saying you shouldn't have your child practice to improve skills, and I don't know enough about Butter to know if in her situation practice would bring up a coding score - I just wanted to note that some skills in some children really aren't able to be pulled up to the level considered "normal" and for some of those children, parents often find they need to make a choice, do we focus a huge amount of energy in a direction that is not going to lead very far, or do we put accommodations in place and give our child time to pursue areas of strength.

polarbear

My son does have neurological issues that have caused his processing learning disability.
The brain is plastic, particularly for children. My son has an almost photographic memory, so I feel when we do flashcards, as an example, we are accessing that talent even if we can't per se improve the processing speed part of his brain.
You can't make every child in every area normal, obviously. However, too often I see overlooked the concept that if you work at something, maybe you can improve- okay, you aren't normal in that area, but you are BETTER than you were.

Looking back at the detailed score report from DS's WJ-III Ach testing, there are two breakdowns, one with grade equivalents and one with age equivalents (there is a good deal of narrative information prior intermixed with tables, but these are the summary sheets I'm looking at). For each tested area, there is an "EASY to DIFF" column, with a lower and higher number for each area; the reported grade or age equivalent is in a preceding column, and falls somewhere in the middle of the range, although not at the average (it actually seems to be usually a little below the average).

If I had to take a complete guess, the DIFF value is probably at or very near the upper bound of the level of questions that he was able to answer correctly at all. I don't know what would feed into a determination of the EASY level, but total or near-total mastery seem like good bets. Grade and age equivalents might be calculated using the range, but in my seat-of-the-pants good-guessing layperson's opinion more likely not, and are probably keyed to a particular mastery level too (50%? 85%? It's impossible to tell from what I have). It's all over my head, and I don't have time to muddle through the numbers with a calculator.