Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC IV scores

Hello, I am new here. I had my 8 year 0 month old daughter tested. The psychologist used the WISC IV and the Woodcock Johnson III. On the WISC IV, her overall scores:



The psychologist said she thinks my daughter does not learn using her short-term memory. Her digit span score was 7, as was her letter-number sequence. Her arithmetic score was 16. Does this theory sound reasonable?

Anyway, just wanted some thoughts, as this is new to me.

The psychologist does not think my daughter has ADHD. She has no issues in school, as far as behavior. My daughter does have a TON of energy, mentally and physically. She wears me out. But, she never gets in trouble at school. She did participate in TAG math, writing, and reading in school this year, such as it was. There was not much in second grade. The psychologist seems to think that my daughter has a very unique learning style and is in the process of writing a report for the school advocating for an IEP for my daughter. The WJ III put her total achievement at 135, which was 99%, and her broad math in particular was high at 146, which was 99.9%.

Hi Colomom -
Your daughter is clearly very bright, and from what you report seems to be doing well. I am not sure what to make of her WMI - especially the digit span score. It is quite low, and even for a very average student, a low WMI would cause some stress and glitches with academics and even everyday issues.

There is a possibility that the score might be different taken on a different day; but assuming that it is correct, I just want to caution you about thinking that she "forgets" because she doesn't care. My guess is that she forgets, because her memory is not that strong, and if there is a bit of information that she cannot easily connect to something else to give it more meaning, it is more difficult to easily store and retrieve it in her brain. This may look like spacey or lazy behavior.

I have a neighbor that is HG and was soaring through a very competitive prep school. While playing sports, she had a very serious concussion that affected her working memory. Until her brain recovered, she struggled with school. Everything took more time, she had to study much more carefully, and she began to better understand the struggles her younger brother with LD faced.

Again, clearly your daughter is very bright and will do VERY well. No doubt if her WMI is really this low, she will come up with compensatory strategies. As she develops, I hope that adults around her realize that any potential forgetfulness is not willful or lazy. She may have some real difficulties holding info in short term memory while her brain figures out how to manipulate it or store it into long term memory.

Hi Colomom,

I think it's great that your tester is writing a letter requesting an IEP. Can you call him and ask him to calculate a 'GAI' and include that in the letter? If the GAI, which combines Verbal and PRI is over 145, then take a look at the Young Scholars Program (if you are in the U.S.)

here's the link:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx

A 'new' idea in the gifted world is LOG - levels of giftedness, which is to say that your DD might never be satisfied doing gifted programs with her agemates, and that although the programs appear 'cheesy' to you or me, that they might in fact be very high quality for 80% of what your school defines as gifted.

Sad to say, there are no standard definitions of giftedness, but whatever defintion anyone uses, is seems likely that most of what is 'true' for 'standard issue' gifted kids won't be that useful for your child - just on her strengths alone, before we even start talking about her challenge areas.

Time for a deep breath.

Ok, not lets talk about Working Memory. Basically, working memory is what most people have instead of lists and notes. I don't have official IQ tests for myself, but I'm fairly sure that I'm more or less similar to your daughter's profile - lightening fast processing speed, and averagish WM.

What that means is that the minute something is 'out of sight' that it's also 'out of mind!' My processing speed is so fast, that I can percieve items 'falling out' of working memory, and it leaves me with the unsettling feeling that there is something I should be paying attention to that I just can't remember what it is.

Now that I've accepted this about myself, it's not a big deal, and I make it a game to figure out fun ways to use 'real life' cues to keep me on track. For example, if I want to get my hair cut after work, I set my GPS to the hairdresser's shop, even though I know perfectly well how to get there. If I want to bring something to work tomorrow, then I walk it out to the car the moment I think about it, and put it on the driver's seat. If that something has to stay in the refridgerator, then I place a 8x12 sheet of paper with the name of the something on the driver's seat. If I agree to do something then I send myself an email on my phone, or a text message. Sort of like David Allen's 'Getting Things Done' I love the feeling of an 'empty inbasket' on all areas of my life. I want to free my mind up for the job of thinking, not the job of staying afloat!

The key to all my tricks is that once I've handled a bit of information a few times then it makes it's way into long term memory, and luckily, my long term memory works just fine.

I wasn't always like this - when I was a kid, I just thought I was 'dumb.' Of course, I wanted to be 'just like everyone else' and grasped at any straw.

Do I think that this is ADHD? I think it's entirely possible that it either is or isn't ADHD. I don't think that psychologists who are not quite familiar with tons and tons of kids with strengths as strong as your DD's are qualified to make the call. Even a qualified psychologist might need many years to make the call - girls are tricky in general, and 'unusually gifted' girls are very tricky indeed.

Working Memory can be enhanced with practice in many people. I would play games that do so, such as 'I'm packing for a vacation, bringing my Apple, Books, Cart, Dog' and each of you has to repeat back and forth the full list. I'd play the card game version of consentration, 'for fun' where one has to remember where the other half of the pair is. I'd play the game where one closes one's eyes and sees how many items of the room once can name. We played a game where one sings the words of song A to the tune of song B - always lots of laughter! And there is the game were one person chooses 2 letters and the other thinks of a word with those letters - can you do it with 3 letters? 4? 5? (I cheat and use compound words)

All of this can be done while waiting in line and in the car. Praise her efforts, and her abilities will probably grow. Hopefully she will have to truely work hard to play these games and this will use up some excess energy- wouldn't that be nice?You may decide that her working memory is pretty good, and that the test was off that day. Or you may see that she has a challenge area there. She might be frustrated by what we call a 'bottleneck' even if the school doesn't call a full 'Learning Disability.' You'll have sort of feel your way to try and increase the intellectual content of her life without overwhelming her bottleneck. Trial and error will be needed if you are going to try and amp up her school day - but I think it will be worth it if you monitor carefully - perhaps that will wear her out nicely too.

So glad you found us -
Grinity

Hello,
I have heard that a poor working memory is associated with dyslexia. I don't know any more than that. Is that a possibility?
The other scores are very high I think.
x

Thank you for the replies. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I do not honestly think she "does not care", more that certain information does not get stored in her brain for whatever reason. It is a bit strange, though, because she has an excellent memory for certain things, but then not for other things. When I was working earlier this year, after having been a SAHM forever, my schedule changed every single day, and my daughter never, ever forgot who was picking her up when or where she had to be. I was afraid every day that she would forget and go to the wrong place or wrong person or whatever. She surprised me, because she never, ever forgot what she had to do or where she had to be. On the other hand, at least twice per week, she would forget a jacket, a lunchbox, etc. She can remember math facts, lyrics to a song she has heard once, something I told her years ago...and then she cannot remember her phone number. So, her memory is just a bit unusual. So far, though, she has done very well in school. Of course, she is only going in to third grade. I don't think the challenges have been too difficult for her so far.

I am going to be getting a full report from the psychologist, but not until the end of next month. She is going to recommend an IEP to the school based on my daughter's "unique" style of learning. I had not considered dyslexia as a possibility, and it has never been mentioned to me by the school, but that means nothing. I will do some reading on the subject.

It is reassuring to know that a less than stellar working memory has not been a detriment to your life, Grinity. I guess that even though the psychologist does not at all seem to be concerned about this aspect of my daughter's testing, I am worried about it.

Grinity - love your GPS strategy!! I will pass this on to my daughter

RE - dyslexia. Many people with dyslexia have lower WM or PSI or both relative to the other index scores. But, in and of itself, low WMI does not indicate dyslexia. My profoundly dyslexic son has a strong working memory, and very low processing speed.

I would wait to see what the evaluation report says. Usually there evaluators do some testing in the area of reading/dyslexia. If there were any flags, it should be noted in the report.

My DD (low working memory) just reminded me of an incident a few years ago. We were taking a trip to Italy, she had converted her hard earned baby sitting money to Euro. And she left it in her room! Luckily we visited Paris two years later, and she was able to use the money there. And like Colomom's DD she has no trouble with lyrics, math facts or other information. There are so many different "kinds" of memory - a person can be off the chart strong in some aspects of memory, and incredibly weak in others. The brain is fascinating!

We had an hour long session with the evaluator, who works extensively with gifted children, consults with a local school district about T/G programs, etc. I really grilled her about the WM issue, and she just really seemed unconcerned about it. I had her meet several times with my daughter before she started testing her. The only thing that she did mention was that she felt that those results pulled down her overall score, because she feels that the VCI and PRI are much more indicative of my DD's abilities. She also really wanted me to look into a local talented and gifted charter school for my daughter. So, I don't know. Of course, I will be really interested to read the report when we get it.

My gut instinct says there is nothing "wrong". I do know that I have a hard time getting DD's attention when she is concentrating on something (a book, making one of her "creations", or whatever). So, I think that can play into her not paying attention, but she is only 8. She gets very, very absorbed in whatever she is doing, no matter what it is, for whatever reason. If it is something important I am trying to tell her, and I know she is not 100% focused on me, I ask her to repeat what I said back to me, to make sure she got it.

And, by the way, she has finally learned our phone number! Small miracles.

mich- that is hilarious about the Euros. And we "forget" aka lose stuff here all of the time, although DD would NEVER forget money

I agree, but why didn't the tester calculate GAI, if she felt that way?

I e-mailed her about that, and she plans to put all of that in with the official report.