Hello, I am new here. I had my 8 year 0 month old daughter tested. The psychologist used the WISC IV and the Woodcock Johnson III. On the WISC IV, her overall scores:



The psychologist said she thinks my daughter does not learn using her short-term memory. Her digit span score was 7, as was her letter-number sequence. Her arithmetic score was 16. Does this theory sound reasonable?

Anyway, just wanted some thoughts, as this is new to me.

The psychologist does not think my daughter has ADHD. She has no issues in school, as far as behavior. My daughter does have a TON of energy, mentally and physically. She wears me out. But, she never gets in trouble at school. She did participate in TAG math, writing, and reading in school this year, such as it was. There was not much in second grade. The psychologist seems to think that my daughter has a very unique learning style and is in the process of writing a report for the school advocating for an IEP for my daughter. The WJ III put her total achievement at 135, which was 99%, and her broad math in particular was high at 146, which was 99.9%.

Hi Colomom -
Your daughter is clearly very bright, and from what you report seems to be doing well. I am not sure what to make of her WMI - especially the digit span score. It is quite low, and even for a very average student, a low WMI would cause some stress and glitches with academics and even everyday issues.

There is a possibility that the score might be different taken on a different day; but assuming that it is correct, I just want to caution you about thinking that she "forgets" because she doesn't care. My guess is that she forgets, because her memory is not that strong, and if there is a bit of information that she cannot easily connect to something else to give it more meaning, it is more difficult to easily store and retrieve it in her brain. This may look like spacey or lazy behavior.

I have a neighbor that is HG and was soaring through a very competitive prep school. While playing sports, she had a very serious concussion that affected her working memory. Until her brain recovered, she struggled with school. Everything took more time, she had to study much more carefully, and she began to better understand the struggles her younger brother with LD faced.

Again, clearly your daughter is very bright and will do VERY well. No doubt if her WMI is really this low, she will come up with compensatory strategies. As she develops, I hope that adults around her realize that any potential forgetfulness is not willful or lazy. She may have some real difficulties holding info in short term memory while her brain figures out how to manipulate it or store it into long term memory.

Hi Colomom,

I think it's great that your tester is writing a letter requesting an IEP. Can you call him and ask him to calculate a 'GAI' and include that in the letter? If the GAI, which combines Verbal and PRI is over 145, then take a look at the Young Scholars Program (if you are in the U.S.)

here's the link:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx

A 'new' idea in the gifted world is LOG - levels of giftedness, which is to say that your DD might never be satisfied doing gifted programs with her agemates, and that although the programs appear 'cheesy' to you or me, that they might in fact be very high quality for 80% of what your school defines as gifted.

Sad to say, there are no standard definitions of giftedness, but whatever defintion anyone uses, is seems likely that most of what is 'true' for 'standard issue' gifted kids won't be that useful for your child - just on her strengths alone, before we even start talking about her challenge areas.

Time for a deep breath.

Ok, not lets talk about Working Memory. Basically, working memory is what most people have instead of lists and notes. I don't have official IQ tests for myself, but I'm fairly sure that I'm more or less similar to your daughter's profile - lightening fast processing speed, and averagish WM.

What that means is that the minute something is 'out of sight' that it's also 'out of mind!' My processing speed is so fast, that I can percieve items 'falling out' of working memory, and it leaves me with the unsettling feeling that there is something I should be paying attention to that I just can't remember what it is.

Now that I've accepted this about myself, it's not a big deal, and I make it a game to figure out fun ways to use 'real life' cues to keep me on track. For example, if I want to get my hair cut after work, I set my GPS to the hairdresser's shop, even though I know perfectly well how to get there. If I want to bring something to work tomorrow, then I walk it out to the car the moment I think about it, and put it on the driver's seat. If that something has to stay in the refridgerator, then I place a 8x12 sheet of paper with the name of the something on the driver's seat. If I agree to do something then I send myself an email on my phone, or a text message. Sort of like David Allen's 'Getting Things Done' I love the feeling of an 'empty inbasket' on all areas of my life. I want to free my mind up for the job of thinking, not the job of staying afloat!

The key to all my tricks is that once I've handled a bit of information a few times then it makes it's way into long term memory, and luckily, my long term memory works just fine.

I wasn't always like this - when I was a kid, I just thought I was 'dumb.' Of course, I wanted to be 'just like everyone else' and grasped at any straw.

Do I think that this is ADHD? I think it's entirely possible that it either is or isn't ADHD. I don't think that psychologists who are not quite familiar with tons and tons of kids with strengths as strong as your DD's are qualified to make the call. Even a qualified psychologist might need many years to make the call - girls are tricky in general, and 'unusually gifted' girls are very tricky indeed.

Working Memory can be enhanced with practice in many people. I would play games that do so, such as 'I'm packing for a vacation, bringing my Apple, Books, Cart, Dog' and each of you has to repeat back and forth the full list. I'd play the card game version of consentration, 'for fun' where one has to remember where the other half of the pair is. I'd play the game where one closes one's eyes and sees how many items of the room once can name. We played a game where one sings the words of song A to the tune of song B - always lots of laughter! And there is the game were one person chooses 2 letters and the other thinks of a word with those letters - can you do it with 3 letters? 4? 5? (I cheat and use compound words)

All of this can be done while waiting in line and in the car. Praise her efforts, and her abilities will probably grow. Hopefully she will have to truely work hard to play these games and this will use up some excess energy- wouldn't that be nice?You may decide that her working memory is pretty good, and that the test was off that day. Or you may see that she has a challenge area there. She might be frustrated by what we call a 'bottleneck' even if the school doesn't call a full 'Learning Disability.' You'll have sort of feel your way to try and increase the intellectual content of her life without overwhelming her bottleneck. Trial and error will be needed if you are going to try and amp up her school day - but I think it will be worth it if you monitor carefully - perhaps that will wear her out nicely too.

So glad you found us -
Grinity

Hello,
I have heard that a poor working memory is associated with dyslexia. I don't know any more than that. Is that a possibility?
The other scores are very high I think.
x

Thank you for the replies. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I do not honestly think she "does not care", more that certain information does not get stored in her brain for whatever reason. It is a bit strange, though, because she has an excellent memory for certain things, but then not for other things. When I was working earlier this year, after having been a SAHM forever, my schedule changed every single day, and my daughter never, ever forgot who was picking her up when or where she had to be. I was afraid every day that she would forget and go to the wrong place or wrong person or whatever. She surprised me, because she never, ever forgot what she had to do or where she had to be. On the other hand, at least twice per week, she would forget a jacket, a lunchbox, etc. She can remember math facts, lyrics to a song she has heard once, something I told her years ago...and then she cannot remember her phone number. So, her memory is just a bit unusual. So far, though, she has done very well in school. Of course, she is only going in to third grade. I don't think the challenges have been too difficult for her so far.

I am going to be getting a full report from the psychologist, but not until the end of next month. She is going to recommend an IEP to the school based on my daughter's "unique" style of learning. I had not considered dyslexia as a possibility, and it has never been mentioned to me by the school, but that means nothing. I will do some reading on the subject.

It is reassuring to know that a less than stellar working memory has not been a detriment to your life, Grinity. I guess that even though the psychologist does not at all seem to be concerned about this aspect of my daughter's testing, I am worried about it.

Grinity - love your GPS strategy!! I will pass this on to my daughter

RE - dyslexia. Many people with dyslexia have lower WM or PSI or both relative to the other index scores. But, in and of itself, low WMI does not indicate dyslexia. My profoundly dyslexic son has a strong working memory, and very low processing speed.

I would wait to see what the evaluation report says. Usually there evaluators do some testing in the area of reading/dyslexia. If there were any flags, it should be noted in the report.

My DD (low working memory) just reminded me of an incident a few years ago. We were taking a trip to Italy, she had converted her hard earned baby sitting money to Euro. And she left it in her room! Luckily we visited Paris two years later, and she was able to use the money there. And like Colomom's DD she has no trouble with lyrics, math facts or other information. There are so many different "kinds" of memory - a person can be off the chart strong in some aspects of memory, and incredibly weak in others. The brain is fascinating!

We had an hour long session with the evaluator, who works extensively with gifted children, consults with a local school district about T/G programs, etc. I really grilled her about the WM issue, and she just really seemed unconcerned about it. I had her meet several times with my daughter before she started testing her. The only thing that she did mention was that she felt that those results pulled down her overall score, because she feels that the VCI and PRI are much more indicative of my DD's abilities. She also really wanted me to look into a local talented and gifted charter school for my daughter. So, I don't know. Of course, I will be really interested to read the report when we get it.

My gut instinct says there is nothing "wrong". I do know that I have a hard time getting DD's attention when she is concentrating on something (a book, making one of her "creations", or whatever). So, I think that can play into her not paying attention, but she is only 8. She gets very, very absorbed in whatever she is doing, no matter what it is, for whatever reason. If it is something important I am trying to tell her, and I know she is not 100% focused on me, I ask her to repeat what I said back to me, to make sure she got it.

And, by the way, she has finally learned our phone number! Small miracles.

mich- that is hilarious about the Euros. And we "forget" aka lose stuff here all of the time, although DD would NEVER forget money

I agree, but why didn't the tester calculate GAI, if she felt that way?

I e-mailed her about that, and she plans to put all of that in with the official report.

Good.
I've been trying to do the math from http://www.ksde.org/Portals/0/Special%20Education%20Services/gifted/WISCIVTechReport4.pdf

to get it for you, but can't quite find all the scaled scores. If I'm right (big if) and you all up all the 'scaled scores' for Verbal and PRI and get over 97, then it's time to download a YSP application (if you live in the US, or are a US citizen abroad, I think) Even if GAI is 'near-YSP level' I find it's useful to think, hey, my kid isn't just gifted, she's darn close to the cut off where her scores are too high to measure, almost a standard deviation above the gifted cut off! Not to say that she'll always look that way (with or without the WM issues) but to me it helps make sense of the world - why so few people get her - it's pretty rare!

I mix up details sometimes, so would appreciate anyone to check my facts - Thanks!
Grinity

Thanks to both of you. Math is definitely her strongest area. So, I am not sure about being at DYS level, but I want to make sure her needs are met, whatever they may be.

My daughter definitely can forget certain things, but so can other kids her age, and so can I. So far, I would not say that I see any major issues with memory, other than minor nuisances in my life (forgetting jackets or lunchboxes). If anything, I think her memory for most things is TOO good. She will remind me of stuff I said in passing months or years ago.

I just want to make sure I am able to adequately advocate for my daughter for whatever she needs. This past year, she did the TAG program at school, but for second grade it consisted of one hour per week or TAG math, reading or writing. I am thankful they have a TAG program at all, but I just don't think that is nearly enough.

Good - it's better to be 'near YS' than YS level gifted in so many ways. But it's still good to know that your DD is 'darn close.'

'Working Memory' what is it? - it's very specific, and not much related to what we normally think of as Memory.

The computer analogy - I've got the world's fattest Hard Drive. I can get most things written onto the Hard Drive fast, acurately, and without much effort. Now let's talk about RAM. I've got a bitty little amount. I can see the big picture instantly, but if I try an 'run too many programs at once,' I make mistakes, and can't seem to hold on to important details.

Workbench analogy - Working memory is like one's mental workbench. Some people have a big honking workbench, and can lay out mentally lots of parts of a problem to search for a solution. A mom friend I know can visualize her daily schedule and that of her DH and 3 teen aged children. Amazing to me! If I need to do 3 errands in the next 30 minutes, I need a written list. It also works to send myself a text message. Once I've written down the list, or taken the time to type the text message, I rarely need it, because I've transfered the information from WM to Storage Memory. But something as complicated as our family schedule? I need external storage devices to suppliment the mental workbench.

Have you ever seen a presenter start with a giant pad of paper and ask the audience for questions at the start of a talk, and then check the pad towards the end to be sure she's adressed all the points? That's another example of someone externalizing her Working Memory.

More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory#Working_memory

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10678.aspx

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10166.aspx

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks for the links. The second article in particular- as soon as I read "perfectionism" and "anxiety", I thought, "well, that would certainly explain a lot." My DD is an extreme perfectionist, and I know the testing upset her when she could not get 100% of the questions correct. This is something I am trying to work on with her. I really am not sure why she is so hard on herself, because I keep telling her that mistakes are OK.

I just really want to make sure whatever needs she has are met. I was exactly her age, when I was identified by my school to skip a grade, but my parents would not allow it. They were afraid I would be a social outcast. My needs ended up not being met until I was old enough to demand they be met. Unfortunately, by then, I was a bit of an adolescent train wreck. I am so afraid of not being a strong enough advocate for my children, and of having history repeat itself.

Do you think I should have a neuropsych eval, as well? I really do not *think* she has ADHD. I have consulted with her teachers, pediatrician, and this psychologist. But, I do not want to take anything for granted. I also do not want to be pushing for a diagnosis when there is none.

This is what I've seen -
1) In some kids, perfectionist behavior is just the way they were born.
2) In other kids, the parents 'say' mistakes are OK, and then rip themselves up emotionally over the mistakes that they make.
3) But for most of the kids who show up here, the parents are making a consciensous effort to publically forgive themselves in the ordinary course of the day, it's plain and simple a reaction to lack of challenge in the classroom. In my son, I could actually monitor how good the classroom fit was by how severe his perfectionist behaviors were and by how willing he was to try new tasks that he might not have instant success in. Apparently kids need lots of chances to work hard and make good effort, and delay educational gratification to build real self esteem. 1000 'good job' stickers just isn't going to do it for these kids.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Can you say more about that TON of energy?

Is she tirelessly digging holes in the back yard or is she crawling up your legs wanting to share every thought in her head RIGHT NOW?

It's hard to know if you should check into the ADHD question without knowing what that TON of energy looks like at home, and what she does with it at school...

I think it's worth looking into the local gifted charter school. Your DD might need that plus a skip if it turns out the WM score just an artifact of her perfectionism. Try some of those games and let us know, ok?

The scores reflect a 'rather not straight forward' sort of message. It's normal to take a period of trial and error to figure out the reality that they are projecting.

The history that you were offered a needed skip also increases the likelyhood that your daughter is going to need to be thoughout about very carefully.

Peace,
Grinity

Interesting thoughts on the perfectionism. I think with my daughter, it may be a combination of factors. As I said, we are working on it.

As for her energy...she has never needed much sleep. She will wake up some mornings at 4 am, and be on the go from morning until I force her to go to bed at 9 pm. She gets up, and if she does not have to be some place immediately, will start working on some "project". She is creative. She likes to make things, do art projects, etc. I am not a morning person. So, I will be sitting, drinking my coffee with one eye open, while she is making one of her creations, talking a mile a minute to me about the revolutions in the middle east, the environment, or whatever else is currently on her mind. That is a typical morning.

She has a lot of mental energy and physical energy. She is athletic, and creative, and I have to keep her involved in a lot of activities at all times. I insist that she always be involved in at least one sport, and some other type of creative pursuit. This summer she has been going to the Y to work out with me every day. She played outside with her friends for three hours, after going grocery shopping with me, and now she is inside doing art projects, talking my ears off again.

But, she can sit still, read a book, watch a movie, play a game, do puzzles, etc. She has great attention most of the time.There are times I KNOW she is not attending to what I am saying, and I have to bring her attention to me, to get her to focus on what I am saying. She is never, ever disruptive in school or elsewhere. When she comes home from school, she immediately does her homework without an issue.

I volunteer in the classroom at least once/week, and I see the kids who cannot sit still. My daughter is definitely not one of them. I have watched her, and the only time I can really see her not paying attention is when things are moving slowly, or if someone near her is being very distracting, acting out, etc.

But, I know ADHD can be very subtle in girls, so I know anything is possible.

Thank you so much for taking the time to give me such thoughtful replies, Grinity. It is really helpful. As you can tell, I am feeling a little overwhelmed and confused at the moment

Colomom, your DD sounds like she is doing fantastically to me.

But just in case I can tell you about my eldest DD, who has CAPD I am quite sure will be diagnosed with dyslexia and inattentive ADHD / ADD shortly - my DD's teachers describe her as very well behaved, a pleasure to have in the class, etc. She's doing well now but she had a LOT of problems with learning delays at the start of school and in all that time ADHD was only mentioned once - by a psychologist who said "Well for the first half of the session I was sure she had inattentive ADHD but she focused really well in the second half so it's not that." I know now that the psychologist should have taken a much better history AND that being able to pay attention well to things that come easily and are pleasurable does NOT rule out inattentive ADHD.

I have been told as well that part of the reason a girl with inattentive ADHD is so much harder to diagnose is that they will sit still and give the perfect impression of paying attention - and still be off with the pixies.

My DD is well behaved and can be fantastically focused, but not on something that is hard for her, she can't shut out distractions or consciously control her attention. And she will talk endlessly regardless of your level of interest.

Ironically enough I just took my second daughter to a psychologist to check for some anxiety issues, which are apparently not a problem - but I was warned to keep an eye on her "ADDish tendencies". I can not tell you how much more focused and easy to keep on task she is than my eldest. I suspect that what I am seeing is that DD#1 has inattentive ADHD, dyslexia & CAPD, and might possibly be on the very mild end of the ASD spectrum. DD#2 on the other hand has a higher IQ (not sure how much higher at this point) and has nothing else wrong other than some mild inattentive ADHD. So I have two kids most likely both with inattentive ADHD but quite different and neither with behaviour problems (apart from a mother who might go spare trying to get their attention at times).

Just adding that I have been thinking about this all morning and my 2nd daughter's level of inattention could easily be attributed to over-excitabilities and that might not be too inaccurate a description. But DD1 definitely goes beyond that.

Thanks for the response, mumofthree...Maybe my daughters and I all have "a touch" of ADD. I understand exactly what you are saying. Your two girls sound just like mine.

But now I DO wonder a bit about the possibility of a "stealth dyslexia". Her handwriting is messy, and she occasionally reverses her bs and ds still. I did not really worry about it, because I help out in the classroom and see a lot of kids whose handwriting is worse than hers, and there are more kids who still reverse letters. She does not do it often, and I just sort of thought it was because she wrote fast. In fact, the psychologist said the same thing. Her handwriting is messy because she is trying to get her ideas out of her head so quickly.

She actually loves to write. Other kids will struggle to write a story that is a page long, and she will write three. So, I don't know. She reads two grade levels above where she should be. So, again, not sure that dyslexia fits, either. Or maybe I am just worrying myself to death!

Messy handwriting and letter reversals without reading difficulties can be dysgraphia, which can exist on its own. The process of generating written output can break down at many different points, and in some people that breakdown happens at the motor output step.

This reminds me a lot of my son, who is now almost 10. Sorry don't have a lot to add to what others have said since I am realatively new to all of this. It just really struck me then I read that.