That makes sense to me, because, I can't imagine who is participating in the talent search at that age anyway? By definition it is limited to kids whoes parents think that they are in the top 5% and know about CTY and are interested enough to bring them. How large or stable is that group going to be? My family members, for example, knew and participated in the 7th grade CTY SAT talent search, but had no idea that there was something for 2nd or 3rd graders, and they are a quite savy bunch in many ways.
I'm sure that there are neighborhoods where taking CTY is a 'must.' I just don't live in one of them. I'd be real real curious to get tons more information on the situations of families in the denominator.
LOL - the numbers are probably so small that when Dottie and I started talking about the test when this board started, we probably influenced the nature of the denominator. Just speculating.
Obviously the percentage against 4th graders is more stable. I just find it difficult to extract meaning from the info. What exactly does it mean to do better on a test than 75% of 4th graders as a 3rd grader? What percentage of 3rd graders could do that? We don't know. How about what % of 2nd graders? It leaves you wide open to the'we have handfuls of students like yours' argument. In other words, they may admit that 15% of 3rd graders could do better than 75% of 4th graders on a reasoning test, but since they don't expect any kid to be able to reason before 6th grade, then they plan to go on leaving those kids untaught and undeveloped like they always do.
AZ1, your school sounds a lot less callus than my theoretical school (above) since they do do groupings. In the long run, the trick is to get the school to evaluate what the child already knows (not their aptitude, learning speed or potential - topics which are too intangible for many school systems) using their own internal materials and their own students for comparison.
Believe it or not, just getting the school to fully use their own instruments, not giving up after they reach their expected top, and then to trust their data is a huge (but often winable) job. Is it fair to hothouse a bit to convert a bit of potential to actual? Sure it is, as long as its fun, or the good kind of stress for the child anyway.
You can always adopt the approach of the CTY fellow on the phone: We don't really know where he fits, so lets try taking some various trial above-grade placements and see what happens. We actually were offered, and accepted, a skip to 8th grade math with 7th graders after completing 4th grade math plus zero hothousing and underachievement. Guess what? after 3 months it was clear that he wasn't going to do well in the class. The subject acceleration was also causing him to miss valuable class time, and a drop back to 7th grade math with 6th graders was a big help. Sure it was embarrassing at the moment, but of all the grudges he caries, that isn't one of them.
I like how Dottie has been able to get her kids accelerated in 'increments' (although her ds maybe wouldn't have needed it) but we started so 'late' that everyone felt very urgent about the whole thing.
Smiles,
Grinity
