Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Reverse acceleration due to ADHD??

I'm interested in your opinions and projections in this situation. I will include a lot of background because I think the situation is complicated.

Background:

DS10 has ADHD, combined type, but he's not hyperactive. He's IMPULSIVE! On medication, he was getting into behavior funks due to loops of negative thoughts. The thought patterns negated the effect of the medication. He is off medication now since there's no point in paying $5K/year for no change in behavior. I have been giving him cognitive behavioral therapy materials and books on mindset, etc. When he's in a good mood the effect is about the same as medication, but he's not yet able to get himself out of a negative thinking loop.

The ADHD pushes asychrony to a whole new level. He executive functioning is comparable with a 2nd grader. His writing ability, hindered by ADHD and perfectionism, is middle school level. He absorbs material at high school to college level. He is at the end of what I'm able to teach him, especially in math, and I'm very concerned because he doesn't have the executive functions to be able to handle high school or college classroom on his own.

He is currently homeschooling and I don't think I can continue with homeschool because he refuses to do schoolwork. Yesterday he spent 8 hours and only did one math problem. There was all kinds of screaming about how he hates math and "a boy my age shouldn't be able to do this". After DS2's bedtime, I sat DS10 down at the dining table and ignored him. After a few minutes he is exclaiming "I can do these as fast as I can write down the answer!" He's capable of doing the work, I know that's not the problem. This is how almost every day has gone here for the last 3 years. He is refusing to comply with very minimal expectations.

A major piece of this is that he feels like he's getting away with it. I have a chronic illness which is unpredictable - some days I'm unaffected, other days I'm almost bed-bound. He takes advantage of the situation and pulls out his worst behavior when I'm physically unable to do anything about it.

His #1 issue is learned helplessness with his behavior. He believes he cannot control himself and that he is not responsible to control himself. Behavior interventions, rewards, punishments backfire badly because in those, the adults assume responsibility for his behavior.

Question:

I'm strongly considering putting him in public school without acceleration. I'm feeling that academic match is a privilege and he has blown his opportunity - maybe a year of normal education will enlighten him as to how privileged he has been? I can't do tutors. We're doing that now and it costs as much as college. I can't justify paying $800/semester for a tutor when he's not doing the work and isn't making progress. We've exhausted the option of virtual school. The remaining option is public school. I'm inclined to put him in public school without acceleration to escape the perpetual family conflict of DS10 not doing his schoolwork.

What do you think about the situation? What outcome would you project?

(((Hugs))) to you. I especially admire how you consistently strive to support your child's growth and giftedness, although you may not have received that support yourself as a child. There are many gifted kiddos who were cut down as tall poppies, not allowed to eclipse their siblings*, classmates, etc... you are not alone. Your many helpful posts indicate you've studied giftedness so thoroughly that you can see a lot of what of could've/would've/should've been done for yourself as a gifted child to provide far-reaching benefits into adulthood. Your kiddos are very fortunate to have such a dedicated parent.

To some degree, it may one of the important jobs of childhood to test the limits. Some kids may be especially adept at this. I feel for the kids who do not have someone to set healthy limits or to maintain the limits when tested... whether the parents are unknowledgeable, unconcerned, or stretched thin for a variety of reasons.

I would see a potential advantage of public school for your son that he may have an IEP and a team of teachers who may not be as easily exhausted as a parent with a health condition. I would still advocate for appropriate academic placement, or least-worst fit... and not intentionally immerse him in lower level, unchallenging academics. I would also look into options for him to self-advocate for higher-level, more challenging academics if he is not learning something new.

Kids need appropriate academic challenge and academic/intellectual peers in order to develop necessary life skills and mental health.

The outcome I would anticipate would be:
- a period of novelty
- a period of trying to coast and play the system
- a realization that his strategy is not working, he is not happy with what his choices are garnering, and that he is in control (can make different choices)
- a period of growth and self-advocacy
- readiness to homeschool, with a new-found appreciation for learning, internal locus of control, ferreting out resources to fuel his own growth and education (putting his energy and intelligence to good use rather than to testing limits).

*gifted kiddos not allowed to eclipse their siblings: Pet peeve regarding the Iowa Acceleration Scale, as described here and here.

You're in a tough situation on two counts: your child and your health.

From what you've described, you've gone above and beyond the call of duty in trying to educate him. Sending him to a public school could be good for him. Kids need to know that there are acceptable and unacceptable behaviors, and sometimes they need an external source to teach them that lesson. As a parent, you can tell him stuff and advise him regarding behavior, but he won't have to learn lessons until his actions have consequences. That can't happen when you can't get out of bed. Teachers and other kids will provide the consequences in a way that a parent can't.

You have a right to be able to take care of your health, which means that you don't have to put your son's desires over your own needs. You'll be much better able to address your medical condition if you don't have the added stress of a defiant child getting in the way. He doesn't have a right to do that to you, and IMO, you shouldn't let him. So I agree with your idea about sending him to public school. He's lost a privilege.

As for the gap in executive function and learning ability, I'd like to suggest something new.

Very poor EF may indicate that he isn't actually ready for high school-level mathematics. Being able to understand concepts and/or do the mechanics of the math is only one part of what's needed. Moving to abstract topics requires a different kind of thinking and an ability to be organized --- about how you think about the problem, how you structure your approach to it, and how you go through the steps of writing stuff down. It's essential that math be practiced daily, or the skills get rusty quickly. So even though he can do the work when he wants to, it's not enough. He needs to develop discipline for working consistently. Plus, working only when you want to just isn't how life is. Sometimes you have to do the task NOW because you just have to, and that's all there is to it. He's at an age where some daily homework will help him learn that lesson. Even if the work itself is easy, the part about getting it done will be hard. So he can learn the second skill without sacrificing knowledge.

A lot of what we learn comes through facing adversity. Your post indicates that some adversity may be precisely what your son needs. I really mean that --- NEEDS.

Best of luck. I know it's not easy.

What Val said.

Val is one of the pithiest posters here - if she posts something I always read it.

Over the years I have learned a great deal from posters like her.

You cannot make casualty out of yourself because you will be unable to function let alone be a parent.

At 10 there is plenty of time for him to come to his senses and recover any lost ground a strong dose of reality - cold and harsh it may be, sounds like just the ticket.

I appreciate your responses very much. They're the opposite of what I expected to hear, actually. I feel relieved with some others agreeing that public school wouldn't be a horrible thing to do to him.

@indigo - I completely agree with your aside about gifted kids not allowed to eclipse siblings. I was the youngest in my family and my dad has terrible anxiety about sibling rivalry... connect the dots...

sanne, you might read some of my first posts on the forum-- we experienced similar dynamics with my DD at this age. Well, at 11 is where I finally hit my breaking point with it, frankly.

I hauled her into two local schools (the middle school wouldn't touch her since she was technically past that point, and the high school intimidated the heck out of her). That was the last real trouble we had with her through high school, truly. She realized that I meant business when I picked up enrollment forms with her in tow.

She knew that if MOM was that serious about shipping her off to be someone else's problem day to day, she had very seriously miscalculated and had better straighten up and fly right.

The underlying problem was that my standards were almost *always* higher than external ones were for her-- I mention this because I was appalled at just how little work was actually required of her, even in AP coursework in high school.

WE made her do what seemed 'right' to us, and eventually we convinced her that our way was, in the end, probably the wiser course of action, since it was far superior as preparation for college and beyond. Word to the wise about that-- schools, especially public schools, may give out A's for work which likely is merely mediocre, and for kids like those here, constitutes an emphatic "phoning it in."

So yes, not doing the work is one thing. But be careful that you aren't trading that for the lesson of easy A's for just showing up. That is a difficult bell to unring as well.


I'd also add that you might explore a behavioral contract with very clear consequences/rewards-- and one of those consequences is "you will attend regular school, and I will not intervene when you experience difficulties due to your own lack of compliance with authority figures." Or maybe you are already past this point of reconsidering a decision to enroll him elsewhere-- but-- maybe he has to EARN back the right to be homeschooled again.

Defiance is a really hard problem when it's tied to other known disability issues. I'm really sorry.

Lastly, I also agree with Val-- you can't sacrifice your own health and life for a child who is basically being a selfish git about this-- a family is an ecosystem, when you get right down to it, and for it to function in sustainable ways, everyone has to meet their particular obligations. This was a line of discussion that has been helpful in dealing with my own ohhh-so-defiant/obstinate child over the years. Not sure if anything here is helpful-- but I definitely get the sense that you are wandering around in the grey space between "I can't" versus "You can't make me."

I realize that this might not be a popular sentiment in a lot of 2e circles, but there does come a point when you have to go with your gut on this, IMO. If you just know that this isn't lack of ability so much as lack of willingness to comply-- end the power struggle. Period. Pick your battles, to be sure-- but when you do, aim to win. Decisively.

That's not to say that such children should be steamrolled or left without any autonomy-- because they have a VERY powerful need for that autonomy, frankly-- just that they have to be both reasonable, cooperative, and unselfish when exercising that autonomy. This, too, is a critical life-lesson. People who are none of those things and insist on their autonomy don't wind up very well off (barring successful sociopaths, I mean). So sit down when you're both calm, lay out some perspective taking-- and listen to HIM, too. Ask questions about the other's perspective, and decide what is rational, what doesn't need rationality (like feelings), and what simply can't BE the way that one of you would like for it to be. Be wise to manipulative tricks, though-- not sure how manipulative your particular child is, but mine is a real doozy in this regard. When she starts with that, I walk away-- I'm not entertaining it.



DD has learned that she is unwise to push me in particular when I tell her "No. NO MORE-- hard boundary, this. It's not open for discussion." I usually have a trump card that she isn't going to like if she persists in behaving like a toddler throwing a tantrum. It's just really hard to follow through because it makes us so sad to deprive her of things we want her to have-- and she knows this, and is happy to press it to her advantage in power struggles with us.

Thank you very, very much. <3

DS10 says "you've been threatening that for years" OMG. he's right. I never thought of it that way.

I'm starting to give away curriculum. If I have it here I'll feel pressured to "use it up". I'm going to keep Great Courses and music stuff.

I'll keep him with his writing tutor and using the math textbook until school starts.

After school starts, I'll give him access to Great Courses (after homework is done) and continue music lessons.

In your situation, I would put him in public school. However, I would allow him to accelerate up to the level of his lowest ability. Any lower, it would just be a punishment. Any higher, he would be treated as a second-class citizen and require extra accomodations from the school and extra assistance from you at home. Don't feel guilty - you have gone above and beyond.

I can commiserate. I don't have health issues, but otherwise have been in a similar boat with my ds11 with everything else you've described.

Regardless of school placement, have you looked into dyscalculia, stealth dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyspraxia? Not saying your ds has these, but the passive-aggressive behaviors you're having with homeschooling point to the possibility of more than just ADHD. It could be a roadblock or bottleneck situation.

I recently 'discovered' that ds's visual deficits (which ds was born with) are impacting his math skills. Ds11 exploded when he had to enter a formula with a pre-calculus course with edX. He completely panicked. He claimed to have forgotten everything with algebra. I then suggested he go back and review pre-algebra with Khan. He then had trouble with place value. He was trying to figure out place value from reading a number from right to left rather than from right to left, if that makes sense. I then said that ds will have to go back and start from scratch with the basics so we can make sure that he's mastered them.

To this, I'll ask - has your child seen a behavioral optometrist? Does he have converge insufficiency or tracking issues? Visual, attention, language, and math skills go hand and hand, believe it or not.

Take a look at some of these links:
Skills that can be affected by dyscalculia -
https://www.understood.org/en/learn...ills-that-can-be-affected-by-dyscalculia

Visual spatial processing -
https://www.understood.org/en/learn...spatial-processing-what-you-need-to-know

Dyscalculia signs with a middle-schooler - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...hat-youre-seeing-in-your-middle-schooler

Dyscalculia signs with a grade schooler - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...what-youre-seeing-in-your-grade-schooler

Math anxiety vs. dyscalculia - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...xiety-vs-dyscalculia-comparing-the-signs

Math anxiety and math performance -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4703847/

Just read - day in the life of a teenager with dyscalculia - https://www.understood.org/en/learn...-the-life-of-a-teenager-with-dyscalculia

Is your ds like this?

Also for stealth dyslexia - http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10435

I don't think that is the case @75west, but I appreciate you posting the links and read them. I will pass them on for my nephew who had apraxia of speech, has dysgraphia, and - recently discovered at 9 years old - stealth dyslexia. He is behaviorally similar to my DS10, but the main difference is my son will have occasional changes to good attitude and then good attention and math performance also. I had DS10 check one of his assignments last week and he was shocked that he'd gotten 75% on his first try. He doesn't see that he is improving with practice, but I think that's a bit of ADHD, age, and bad attitude wrapped up together where he's not able to look at situations objectively.

It's maddening that he'll pull huge long oppositions, and then have a total attitude change. He missed most of family vacation. He is behind in the state requirements for homeschooling and the deadline is June 30. I got all kinds of crap from my husband's family about insisting that DS10 would do one math lesson each morning before participating in vacation. Of course, DS10 dragged out his one math lesson until evening most of the days, but that's his choice. I'm sure I've covered my bases as far as homeschooling requirements and that there's no way I could be found guilty of educational neglect. But in my mind, I'm upset that he didn't do english, has not progressed with his writing tutor, has only covered 1/4 of the math, has not progressed in science, quit trumpet (his supposed passion), barely participating in piano. He's not doing electives, sports, clubs, activities, or any extracurricular activities that would justify reducing academics. Not even playing alone or with friends. But still, my husband's family has been pressuring me the past week to "let him be a kid" and "it's summer vacation", etc. Their kids participate in school, activities, friends, good grades, etc. Mine does not, and no summer vacation until he finishes school.

Depression would also explain a lot of these things.

I would tell him that he has X period of time over the summer to show a willingness to work otherwise he has to go to the public school. Show him the enrollment forms, etc. so he knows you're serious. if he ends up in the public school, tell him that if he completes his work there, you can consider homeschooling again after X amount of time (like a quarter or semester). Or, if he chooses, he can stay in school. I think you need to lay it out for him and then act on it. Focusing for one day on schoolwork is not going to be good enough. He has to be serious about it for a couple weeks and demonstrate a permanent attitude change. I'm not sure how long he has been home schooled but peer pressure can do amazing things. He may end up working because it's expected, and that might change his "I can't" mindset. Not likely but I don't see what other options you have at this point. My kids with executive functioning issues can also be stubborn and resist work and it's very frustrating figuring out why and what to do about it. The key accommodation seems to be to break things down into small steps. Seeing too much work all at once is overwhelming. So even with math, you could try giving him only a few problems at a time.

sanne - it may not be the case, but I'll echo that I had the same thoughts as @75west while reading your post, and I'm parenting a teen who is dyspraxic and dysgraphic as well as a younger teen with a reading challenge. One thing that I'd note from what you've just mentioned - your ds has a cousin who has dysgraphia. Dysgraphia, dyscalculia, dyslexia sometimes occur in families. If your ds hasn't had a neuropsych evaluation, I'd consider it. Many of the symptoms of ADHD are shared with other learning challenges, and the behaviors you've described around schoolwork are very similar to behaviors of students with undiagnosed learning challenges. It's incredibly easy to not recognize learning challenges in bright children - they are so able to cope in so many ways.

I'd also note that those occasional changes in attitude and performance aren't inconsistent with learning challenges - I suspect that many of us here who are parenting 2e students have seen those moments when everything seems to be working ok, or even very well - but typically there are things surrounding those moments which make that change possible - i.e., subtle differences in what's expected, what's assigned, maybe even something that helps our child in terms of self-confidence that's not easily noticed unless you're looking at the details.


You can help him see progress (as well as monitor it) by designing repeat assignments - have him do essentially (but not exactly) the same type of exercise every 3-4 months, or every Friday - pick the interval based on what type of assignment you choose and also how often you think your ds would benefit from seeing his progress.


Another poster suggested that these might be symptoms of depression. Do you think his lack of progression with his schoolwork and need to finish it is also diminishing his ability to enjoy the things he does like to do? Does he usually like to play with friends? If it seems like he's not himself, I'd wonder if he's feeling down, and also wonder if it's related to his lack of progress with his schoolwork. Just thinking that there might be *something* other than unwillingness or lack of cooperation that's resulting in his lack of progress, and that not really understanding at this point what that something is might be leading him into feeling down more globally. Hope that makes sense. And granted, I may be totally off in thinking this is a possibility - just thinking through what happened with my ds prior to having a diagnosis that helped us understand what was really going on with his challenges.

Best wishes,

polarbear

He only has had WISC IV, WIAT III, and WISC V for neuropsych. His processing speed is verrrrrrrrry sloooooooooooow. 21st percentile, low enough to drag down his FSIQ by 30 percentiles. Other than that, nothing noteworthy in neuropsych. He was screened for anxiety and depression at the time he was diagnosed with ADHD. He has seen a psychologist, but it was a massive failure as the psychologist was pushing reward systems on me and DS10 tried to use that to manipulate.

He does not have friends locally, he was social outcast. He has a friend out of town we see twice a month and gets along with cousins (who recently moved out of state). In his own words "I like people, but they don't like me." Very true, his impulsive behavior is offputting to age peers.

Home life is not so great because of constant conflict he instigates.

I get how he's unhappy most the time, but he is causing his own unhappiness. It's so frustrating. I don't think there's anything left I can do about it more than to put him in public school so it's not affecting me and DS2 during the day.

I recently read this book. https://www.amazon.com/Only-Mother-Could-Love-Him/dp/0340838922 and it was interesting in that a young adult describes what his childhood was like with adhd and what was going through his head. Maybe it would give you some insight? I dont think people realize how adhd can reallly be a big problem because of the executive functioning aspect of it. It's not really much different than any other learning disability. so unless you have reason to believe he has dyslexia, dyscalculia, etc. you can probably assume some of it is ADHD and the poor executive functioning that goes along with it (problems with focus, initiation, organization, planning, etc), some of it is negative thought patterns based on past experiences, some of it is just plain lazy or obnoxious behavior. There doesn't have to be just one explanation. Research ways to get him organized, scaffold his work, and help improve executive functioning skills.

Thank you for the book suggestion; I put in a library request and will have it in my hands by next week!

Sanne - I wasn't focusing on the computational math but on your ds's internal sense of time and his avoidance behavior.

My ds11 too has had plenty of testing and seen many experts, but none of them uttered the word dyscalculia or stealth dyslexia yet my ds definitely has no internal sense of time. Zilch. Ds has ADHD and PDD traits and symptoms, but it's the sense of time that unhinges him.

Ds goes into a complete tailspin with anything timed. He has avoided timed math facts since he's been homeschooled and had a bit of a traumatic time when he was in a private gifted school and made to do timed math drills in kindergarten, no less. He just can't get the words out quick enough for math drills or make his fingers get to the right keys on a keyboard to answer quickly enough in time.

And yes, there is a genetic component here -- ds has dyspraxia and other family members do too as well as stealth dyslexia. I've got family members who also have no sense of time, zilch.

Playing the piano or any instrument requires a sense of timing, I believe, as well as great auditory skills. If you don't have an internal sense of time, then you're more likely to avoid picking up an instrument.

Even with stealth dyslexia (https://www.understood.org/en/commu...-some-dyslexic-students-escape-detection) - you can have good focus and attention -- but with using fMRI scanners to study the brains of students with stealth dyslexia. Researchers found that their brain wiring did indeed show the classic features of dyslexia. This confirmed they really are dyslexic.

This particular researcher - found that when they read, they show heightened activity in parts of the brain that help with executive function and self-control. Their comprehension appears to be strong because they compensate for their decoding problems by using their attention and problem-solving skills in especially active ways.

Maybe a fMRI scan would confirm the issue? I'm trying to find an answer for the question myself.

@75west, I started laughing out loud at "internal sense of time". None. 😂 And coming unglued at timed math facts. I was so frustrated and disappointed as I LOVED timed math fact tests when I was that age! You're right, he can't get the words out before he forget the thought.

I will have to listen more carefully to his music. He generally plays with a metronome. hmmmm.... He's musically talented, but feels intimidated by learning new music. Takes him a long time to go through the process of reading music. He enjoys playing after he has figured out the notes. He balks at reading the notes. He decided one of his pieces assigned this week is "hard" and is refusing to work on it. Ironically - and predictably - it's easier than his other piece assigned for this week, and easier than each of the three pieces he learned last week. 😖 He cannot be convinced otherwise. I'm annoyed to waste the lesson money, time and travel cost for a lesson that he's not well-prepared for. He outgrew his first piano teacher after 6 weeks. His current teacher is a professor, and private lessons are costing as much as if he took them for college credit. The quality of instruction is fabulous and exactly what he needs, but then he pulls out his "I can't do it" card. Frustration!

I will reread the links. Thank you for clarifying.

I have forgotten to say that other than the learned helplessness, the other major cause of his refusal to do school is his expectation that it should be "interesting". I'm interpreting this as novelty seeking ADHD. However, considering he has gotten a grade or subject skip every time he pulled the behavior pattern (because he needed it), now he is conditioned that refusal = reward. My interpretation. He also has a maladaptive reaction of trying to make tasks interesting by adding to them (in his mind), which is not doing them at all.

He's trying to make them interesting with sensory stimming, but get distracting in the stimming and getting comfortable and abandons the task. When I interrupt the pattern of behavior he gets sulky and refuses to comply. He read a book that gave him an alternate strategy of racing against a timer. Racing the clock works reliably to get him engaged and interested in the activity. However, he refuses to use this strategy without prompting, and usually resists with prompting.

Can lead a horse to water, can't make it drink.

That's a really large gap in processing speed - did you get subtest scores? If so, were they about the same or was there a large discrepancy? There may very well be an important clue in the processing speed scores that is indicating something's up other than ADHD. When my kids had neuropsych evals, the neuropsych included additional testing to determine why discrepancies were observed in ability and achievement scores. Both my dyspraxic ds and my totally neurotypical dd (we had no idea she didn't have a challenge at one point lol!)... had large gaps in processing speed on their WISC, and they were both also given additional tests by the neurospych to determine if there were fine motor or visual processing issues. We discovered that my dd was experiencing severe double vision, and we found out through the additional tests that my ds' dip in processing speed was due to dyspraxia and fine motor challenges.


While he may be behaving in a way that's causing unhappiness, I'd also consider that he may be struggling with things beyond his ability to cope. I don't think you can know the answer of what school setting is the right path until you know a little bit more for certain about whether or not he has a specific challenge.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - my dyspraxic ds loves music, and has studied piano and other instruments for years. He impresses the heck out of people when he plays piano, but it's primarily all played by ear - he has never enjoyed practicing from sheet music and always plays by memory once he's read a piece of music a few times. I have no idea whether or not that's related to his dyspraxia but wouldn't be surprised if it is.

I remember it was a big difference. It was still about the same amount of discrepancy when he was on ADHD meds, but his processing speed was up to 100/50th percentile. GAI was 141. I'm not sure how good of a test of a result that was. He was on immediate release medication which is only effective from him for about a 90 minute window. I tried my best to time his doses for testing, but he was under-medicated for part of it.

I'm discouraged by the first neuropsych. He mentioned that it was a large discrepancy but didn't suggest further exploration or even explain what it could possibly. His report is a long anti-grade-skip rant that is not remotely evidence based or even specific to my son. The first neuropsych was IQ and acheivement. My son's acheivement was 98 - >99.9 percentiles with little spread. His IQ ended up 68th percentile with the low processing speed score. There was another really low test score. Something about comprehending social norms? I've never really understood what the subtest is or its relevance.

That would be the Comprehension subtest, which is part of the VCI. I'm sure aeh will be along to explain better, but my understanding is that a low score on that section can just be unfamiliarity with parts of mainstream culture, or it can be an indicator of various LDs, I believe including both ADHD and autism.

If all you had was the WISC and WIAT, then yes, comprehending social norms was likely the Comprehension subtest, which is part of the VCI. A lot of different factors can affect performance, including social perception/social reasoning, level of acculturation, and receptive language. The meaning of the low score would depend on additional data on those other areas. (Completely leaving aside the issue of insufficiently controlled ADHD, which can affect any test. Comprehension is also generally among the last subtests administered on the WISC, so sometimes kiddos just run out of steam. You note that his dose ran out before the end of the testing session, so this is among the subtests most likely to be affected.)

Also, pm'd you.

I picked up enrollment papers and met with the middle/high school principal. Principal is pro-acceleration. Says they'll do above grade level testing with ACT Aspire for grade placement and put him in whatever grade he only knows 50% of the material, and start an IEP for ADHD issues.

This sounds good. If DS10 crashes and burns with ADHD issues, it will be huge reality check for him.

I'm a little wary of that 50% benchmark for grade placement. What grade will he end up in? (Sounds like 9th) What classes will he end up in? Yikes.

The school does not do study halls and he cannot take fewer than 6 classes. Music does not count toward those 6 classes - music is scheduled at the same time as the "resource" / study hall the period at the end of the day. Hmmmm....

The shock of an intense schedule would be good for his attitude. But after that shock, surviving the school year is something else.

.... but you will have teammates when it comes to SOLVING the problems. More to the point, so will he. Now, from his perspective, those teammates may seem more like a number of different task-masters, none of whom he is thrilled to be beholden to-- but it's a start, and as you say, something of a reorientation with regards to "Yeah, NO. This is not a functional way of existing. You need help, and you need to do things differently."


The VERY best of luck.

I don't know what to make of the 50% mark, either, but with a lot of kids who have executive issues on top of GT/asynchrony, if they aren't engaged in learning and novelty-- you've got ADDITIONAL problems with attention and motivation that are pretty immutable.

So maybe the principal is on to something there.

The 50% mark is bothering me. I'm collecting documents for enrollment. His most recent test was MAPS in spring 2016, end of 3rd grade.

Math 247 - 75th percentile for end of 9th grade
Reading 241 - 86th percentile for end of 11th grade
Language Usage 245 - 92 percentile for end of 11th grade

The RIT score for MAPS is the level at which the student is answered 50% of the questions correctly. If he made progress over the last school year and ACT Aspire is similar to MAPS (should be because of Common Core), and he tests above 50% for 12th grade, then what are they going to do with him? The high school only offers one AP english class and I know he can't handle the writing expected at the community college for their 101 and 102 courses. How is he going to accrue 4 credits of english and develop his lagging writing skills?

I suppose the whole point of public school is to let someone else deal with that exact problem.

I found a research paper linking MAPS to ACT Aspire. Very interesting, maybe won't be as bad as I feared.

DS's MAP score was about the same at the end of third grade, and in fourth grade he was placed in pre-algebra (which is 7th grade math here). I don't have any recent MAP data and it could have shot up more in the last year, but they are having him skip another year and having him do Algebra for high school credit this coming school year. Pre-algebra last year seemed about right, a little easy since he almost never brought anything home to do or study and still got an A+. They made it through the book in about 3/4 of the school year.

My DS10 did Algebra 1 during fall 2016. It was a disappointing class - it was online and "dumbed down". It corresponded with Saxon Algebra 1/2. He started Saxon Algebra 2 spring 2017 and is about 1/2 through it, C average. No problem with the concepts, but he makes lots of "stupid little" ADHD mistakes. The challenge level is right. I'm guessing he'll end up placed in Geometry since he hasn't taken it yet. The Saxon curriculum includes geometry problems so he might score better on Geometry than I suspect.

FYI, Saxon Algebra 1/2 is essentially a pre-algebra text. My DC who spent a little time in Saxon did 6/5, fleetingly 7/6 before being moved up to 8/7 early in the year, and then went straight into Pearson/Prentice Hall Algebra I Common Core, based on an end-of-course exam score for Algebra 1/2 that was better than 90%. IOW, there is negligible material in 1/2 that could not have been learned in 8/7. So if his alg 1 class was really Saxon algebra 1/2, he didn't actually have a solid algebra 1 class, which might be why it felt limited. Good for him that he adapted to alg 2 without that.

Here they do pre-algebra and then kids have the option to take "Middle school algebra" which is probably a dumbed down introductory version of algebra, then they would take Algebra 1 in 9th grade high school. A lot of kids take Algebra 1 in middle school, but they give h.s. credit for it. So it's the "middle school algebra" that they are having DS skip. He just finished Pearson Math Connects course 3.

Yeah, aeh, the online algebra 1 was a joke. The previous school year he did coursera.org AlgebraX which has the more typical Algebra 1 topics, but it was very conceptual without many practice problems. Then over summer I was worried because he skipped so many grades in math, so last summer I had him do Saxon 65, 76, Algebra 1/2 to check for gaps. It would be like pulling teeth to have him go through Algebra 1 again - to do the practice problems without learning new material. But if he can't solve those problems with accuracy, he needs to do it again.

What if he is fatigued and impulsive if testing continues after his medication wears off? What if he is over-tested and gives up? If they start at 6th grade in all subjects, that's going to be a lot of testing!

Aeh, do you think it would be reasonable to ask them to start testing at 9th grade level? They could go down from there if he scored lower than expected, but if he performed as expected it would save him from taking at least 9 unnecessary tests.

I think it would be very reasonable to ask them to test him starting from his documented completed coursework. At this point, he's had multiple courses in algebra I and prealgebra, and is part way through alg ii. Giving him the alg I end-of-course to begin with seems eminently sensible. Do you have any idea what kind of placement testing they do? We use some specific computer-based placement instruments for our incoming ninth graders. One I don't know the name of for math, and the SRI reading comp test. And we have them write an essay. If he's completed at least eighth grade level work in all core subjects, he should really be taking the same placement instruments as incoming ninth graders. Our placement instrument is reasonably effective at placing them into alg I or alg ii (we make almost everyone take geometry in tenth grade, because that's when high stakes testing occurs, and its logistically easier to schedule testing if they're all in the same classes--though several years back, we did have a freshman who tested into alg ii do so well that he was advanced to precalc in tenth grade).

So I looked up the Aspire technical manual, and the scaling on the 6th grade test does allow for comparisons to the 50th %ile or better up through 10th grade, which is the highest Aspire grade level. If he tops that out, then you'd be looking at the actual college prep ACT as the appropriate above-grade-level test. Which, I think, is a bridge you cross only if you get to it. If his writing is middle school level, on reflection, I think it may make more sense to split the difference, and have him take a late middle school test, like the eighth grade form, so that both his strengths and weaknesses are somewhere closer to the middle of the obtainable ranges for scaled scores. If one of the sections blows the roof off, then you try another grade level in that subject. I'd say that if additional testing is needed, that the first round will give the school some idea of how far up to go, and then you go back on another day for a second round in the specified areas.

About the MAP scores, unless your DS took the 6+ version, the numbers may not be accurate. Assuming that the scores were either from the 6+ version or otherwise accurate, the numbers may still be too low for high school unless your DS is stucked in a district without students who can hold their own nationally (top 90th percentile or so). As a comparison to the over-inclusive "pseudo-GT" classes for DS/DD's 8th grade cohort, those Math and Reading scores would have placed your DS among the low-performers.

The key is figuring out the composition of students at your DS's school. Another poster mentioned that their school has a "middle school Algebra I" class, which is watered down and required repeating with a "high school Algebra I" class. In our district, it is the complete opposite! The Algebra I class in 7th grade has the bright kids while the Algebra I class in 9th grade has the remedial kids - this is objectively verified by superior performance on a national Algebra I test near the end of the school year.

I am not certain about the 50% threshold. Is it 50th percentile for targeted grade or 50% correct on end-of-course assessment. The former would be too low a threshold but the latter may be reasonable. The consideration is whether you want your DS to be in the middle of the pack or among the top performing students.

I highly recommend you steer your DS to the Art of Problem Solving website. Try their readiness and mastery tests for Algebra 1 and Algebra 2. There are also tests for Algebra 3. Do note that a solid Algebra I course at a B&M school actually covers part of AoPS' Algebra 2 course while a solid Algebra II course at a B&M school would cover parts of AoPS' Algebra 3. However, AoPS is more in-depth and challenging. There are also the free online Alcumus problems categorized by Algebra topics. You mentioned that your DS is completing Algebra II so if your DS quickly hits blue (mastery) on the relevant Algebra topics on Alcumus, that can also reassure you as to his readiness for Geometry.

Thank you aeh and Quantum2003! I appreciate your feedback very much!

I want DS10 to be middle of the pack. If he's getting straight A's I suspect his perfectionism, anxiety, and smug attitude will return.

The middle/high school is rated low for college readiness. Students who go to college are mostly going to the local community college. That's the plan for DS10 anyway - to get his AA done at the community college and then transfer into one of the state universities.

I am enjoying what is playing out at home now with the prospect of above-grade-level testing on the horizon. DS10 is aware he has forgotten a lot, especially in grammar. He is concerned that he might score lower on testing now than a year ago.

*I* am not sharing the same concern. I'm working on boundaries - his life, his behavior, his consequences.

He asked me for access to IXL.com to review english/grammar. I told him if he did chores all afternoon, I would pay for a month of access to IXL. I didn't think for a moment that he would follow through. BUT HE DID! I had a relaxing afternoon and my house was clean, and he got IXL to practice. He's going straight down the 12th grade english to review.

This is so nice, a complete change. He's taking a bit of responsibility for his actions and trying to influence the outcome in his favor. So much better than his regular pattern of giving up, resisting, and blaming mom for everything that goes wrong in his life.

I'm sensing the winds of change.

This is great news - thanks for sharing.

Internal locus of control: He is owning his choices...

This saga is taking an unexpected turn. After 13 years (yes, years!) of misdiagnosis, my chronic illness has been diagnosed correctly and the treatment (y'know, for the right diagnosis...) is working. DS10 has been staying with grandparents while I adjust to new medication and to take him to piano lessons since I'd been unable to drive. He has been home for a couple visits and he is sensing the winds of change too. I was physically capable of supervising him. After a tantrum, he quit his old patterns of misbehavior and was cooperative.

Getting him set up for school is bogged down in technicalities. He grade skip last year (4th to 7th) was not recorded correctly by his previous school, so the middle school referred his acceleration to the elementary school. But the middle/high school is going to do the testing? Nothing has happened yet. The middle/high school is very pro-acceleration, so once he is officially promoted into that school the proces *should* be smooth.

So happy for you that you are finally experiencing better health! Best wishes on your continued improvement.

Hooray for a correct diagnosis and meds that work!

This is getting interesting! :P The acheivement testing the school wants to do isn't available until after the school year starts. So DS10 will be starting the year in 5th grade until testing is complete and they decide what grade to put him into. His 5th grade classroom teacher will be debriefed and I will be sending stuff for him to do if he doesn't want to participate 5th grade lessons. I will be busy photocopying pages out of textbooks for him to make it more discreet. His 5th grade classmates don't need to know what is going on, IMO.

To a casual observer, the overall plan of deferring achievement testing until after school starts, and beginning the school year with a 5th grade placement sounds like it may be intended to make 5th grade placement stick.

You may wish to ask further questions about the timing... anticipated date when testing will be complete... anticipated date for deciding what grade to put him into. The school should be managing expectations as well as providing a transparent process.

I would advise against unauthorized duplication of materials with a copyright; making such photocopies may be a violation of intellectual property rights. As a parent and a role model, it tends to set a bad example and may lead to future trouble.

Small update: first day of school. His teacher was not debriefed but seemed laid back and flexible. DS10 has a male teacher (new experience for him) and he likes his teacher.

The elementary school has a new wing for 5th grade so DS10 didn't feel the hallway situation was as "demeaning" as before - not exposed to younger grade teacher's "pandering" and "condescending" voices.

5th grade gets special organizational supports for prepping them for 6th grade - those supports are just right for his ADHD needs.

Today was low-demand day. The only class period they had was silent reading and he had a book he picked from the public library the day before. Socially was fine, he is seated between 2 boys he has gotten along with fine in the past. He had a positive attitude and upbeat report of the day (not surprising for low-demand and novelty).

Teacher reported no behavior concerns and mentioned specifically that DS10 smiled and said goodbye at the end of the day. (I'm annoyed when good manners surprise people.)

I know DS10's next math lesson I'm sending for tomorrow is an intimidating one - Completing the Square. We sat down yesterday and he picked which problems to do, about half the review problems. Today I had him start "enough so you understand it". He felt confident. So...... hopefully he can focus on his lesson and manage himself tomorrow. The class will be reviewing math facts.

Bonus, the 5th grade wing has a small room outside each classroom for pull-outs, group work. Potential quiet room for DS10 to work.

His acheivement testing with ACT Aspire starts 9/5 and is expected to tak multiple days. They're going to guess where he might be at and then work up or down based on his results - repeat for 4 different subject tests. His Woodcock-Johnson is not scheduled yet.

@indigo, I'm not worried about copyright because I'm copying materials I already paid for, am not distributing, and will destroy after use.

The elementary school has referred DS10 to the middle/high school for acceleration. Although I have been tempted to leave him in 5th grade, becauuuuuuuuuse, he found a friend. A kid who is 2 years younger, grade skipped up to 5th grade. He could have been skipped further but his parents declined. It gets better, the boy is super nice, his family is wonderful, and we're neighbors. In a district with <100 students per grade, we have a peer friend! They are hilarious together! They each have just enough sense of competition to egg each other on - exactly what my unmotivated DS10 needs, and they both struggle with perfectionism but express it in opposite ways.

They will still ride the bus together even if/when DS10 is accelerated. His family is coming over for supper tomorrow to plan logistics of getting them together afterschool.

DS10 had been opposed to acceleration until he realized he wouldn't lose the friendship. Their bus ride is an hour long. They sit together and quiz each other! State capitals! Periodic table! Archaic vocabulary! That plus regular play time will help DS10 with social skills and social stress.

Thanks for sharing your good news, sanne. So glad things are going well for your DS!

DS10 did testing for the phase 2 of acceleration child study this past week. He took end of 6th grade math test, the ACT, and I think a cold writing prompt. (School admin said it was on lists of tests, but DS10 didn't tell me about it. Yet? IDK)

He took a practice ACT a while back for a starting point and got an 18. District average is 21, for reference. He thought he did better on the real ACT than on the practice one. I'm curious, I don't expect his score to be any higher than his practice test though. He was not well rested and didn't have breakfast on those test days so I wouldn't be surprised if he scores lower. (We've had a rough week, not ideal timing for testing! I have been struggling with more intensity of chronic pain my treatment plan for chronic illness not work and a surgery too, so I have not been good about keeping our family on daily routines this week.)

Anyhow, update for those curious. Process is still going. Feels like a snail's pace but DS10 is happy so I'm still not concerned and am enjoying not being responsible for his education.

I have IEP meeting. They were not clear about whether he'd be evaluated against district norms or his ability. I'm guessing they'll come back with not eligible. Fair enough for 5th grade. Just wait until he's accelerated and can't function. But now I know I should be asking for 504 rather than IEP. Oops. Live and learn.

Even if they find him not eligible for an IEP, the eligibility flow chart should include considering whether he presents with a disability in need of accommodations (a 504, IOW). Depending on your school system, you may be able to ask for a discussion of 504 eligibility at the IEP table, or, at a minimum, referral to the 504 team.

How did your DS do on the ACT Aspire that you mentioned previously on your 8/30/17 post? If he scored highly on the ACT Aspire, then the Distict may still accelerate him even if his ACT scores are a few points lower than the district average. The Aspire is like the former Explore (which was normed against 8th graders with lots of data for Winter 3rd through Fall 8th graders as comparison), which may be more relevant when considering acceleration into middle school. It may not be advisable to accelerate into high school with those ACT scores but that doesn't mean he wouldn't benefit from middle school. Of course, if things are going well on the social front, it probably won't hurt too much to take a breather and see what the district comes up with after reviewing everything.

DS10 has a skeleton 504 in place, with intention to revise it as needed after acceleration.

He will be going to 6th grade "STELM" after Thanksgiving break, which is beginning of the second trimester. His english clas will be replaced with the STELM class, which is project based curriculum extension. Units are topics like robotics, cryptography. All the students are in the top 10th percentile. The school believes it will help him generate volume of writing and develop some EF skills.

He will be put in 7th grade math and science.

I accepted the offer saying "we don't know what is going to work, so we have to try something!". i don't want to push for academic match and have DS10 floundering from lack of executive functioning. I think that situation would limit my future power as an advocate for him.

I have expectation of a stepped acceleration. If he can keep up with organizational skills and improve his keyboarding, then I'll push for single subject accleration in math.

He did surprisingly poorly on the ACT Aspire. No word on the ACT scores, but the few things I've heard sound bad. He didn't use his time well and didn't finish one test. He gave up on another because he wanted to go home and filled in random answers.

I think his school performance will improve once he gets out of his current classroom. He's putting all his attention into social status, since he is the biggest fish in the pond right now. He's loving it, of course, but it's not beneficial for him long term.

DS10 started middle school 6th/7th grade this past Monday. He has had nausea (anxiety?) in the mornings and has been chewing his lip raw. He hasn't done that since 1st grade went so badly.

I am picking him up from school, having him go through each class mentally, fill out his planner/assignment notebook, go through his locker and backpack so he takes home what he needs to. (In 5th grade, he was lying to his teacher that he was bringing his homework home, and then coming home and lying to me that he'd forgotten it.)

He is struggling with the conflict between "knowing" material as a passing familiarity and mastering defined learning targets. He says his science class is hard. They're on mitosis and meiosis. Maybe it would have been easier if he had spent his 30 minutes of homework reading the material rather than flipping through the textbook skimming anything that looked exciting.

He has a minimum 5,000 word short story project in one class. He's already lying to me about what his teacher expects. I've been emailing the teacher, she is letting me know exactly what she tells him. <3 She wants him to write 300 words per day. Hah! Took him 2 hours to write 75 words yesterday. I suspect this assignment will end catastrophically.

I'm just now starting to figure out all the crap he pulled in 5th grade. Lying about packing his lunch, taking school lunch (without paying for it or having money in his lunch account). Oh my! The elementary school coddled him badly - it was a chief complaint of mine back in 4K! they don't let students experience natural consequences. Thankfully middle/high school is different. First thing I did was freeze his lunch account. Miraculously (sarcasm), he is "remembering" to pack his lunches. Of course! Stuff like this makes me think his ADHD is an elaborate scam or scapegoat for behaving badly. I'm thankful I have his neuropsych reports before and after ADHD medication to ground me.

He is getting behind on homework already in 3 days. He spent 4 hours on homework yesterday. Looked like 30 minutes doodling rather than doing his math homework. He didn't finish several assignments, didn't practice trumpet, didn't clean his room or put his dirty clothes in the hamper, and didn't take a shower. Yuck! He went to bed an hour late and then kept himself up even later singing and talking to himself.

I am completely exhausted. This homework supervision thing is more exhausting than homeschooling him. And picking him up after school to check his locker and papers takes a huge chunk out of my day, leaving me getting up earlier and getting sleep deprived. I'm not a happy momma.

What can I do to make this better?

Maybe you need to let him fail.

This may sound harsh, but we as humans often need to learn a lesson the hard way. Now is a good time to fail because his grades won't count for college. And even if they do, sometimes a person still needs to fail.

IMO, there isn't much that an adult can do to convince a child that s/he needs to work or work hard. This motivation has to come from within, and in some people, it can only come after experiencing what the alternative is like.

My daughter went through a phase where she was like this, when she started middle school. It started off ok but then spiraled downhill once the work ramped up. It was awful. Luckily she has an IEP and the school was willing and able to help micromanage her. On a certain level i'm sure she cared that she was failing (one class in particular) becasue she wasn't doing the work, but on the other hand she didn't care at all. For her, failing wasn't really a consequence, other than the fact that she didn't like people mad at her. But it was easier to have people mad than to figure out how to focus and get things done. If it wasn't for her school services, and being able to get things done in the special ed room with supervision (vs. unmedicated at home), it would have been a disaster. You have to find a balance between accommodating and consequences. I don't think the consequence should be failing if for the kid, it just gets them off the hook. If given a choice between doing something hard and getting an F, some kids are going to choose the F. They just don't care that much. So then what. They learn they got an F and life goes on, onto the next F? They don't learn anything other than they can avoid work and get away with it. A better way to do things may be to find a good motivator, like if he can maintain A's or B's for a couple weeks or months, he gets something he really wants. And then he will also learn that if he works hard he can do it and get some satisfaction from a job well done.

Okay, so if we're setting aside the hypothesis that ADHD is the culprit...

I had a somewhat similar experience with a gifted foster child who was falling behind and in danger of being retained in the third grade. She refused to do her reading assignments due to learned helplessness (she was told she was dyslexic) and because she'd been able to manipulate her way out of doing them before, through various strategies of being charming, crying, etc.

The second part was easy enough to resolve - we simply let her sit at the dining room table and not participate in any of the rest of the family's activities until her work was done, consistently and non-negotiably. But left on her own, she'd simply fidget for hours, try various ways to get attention, and just plain rage. Because that was never going to resolve the very real tears and howls of frustration that were coming from her learned helplessness, which was the reason she avoided doing the assignments in the first place.

To make a long story short, I sat down with her to do the reading assignments together, quickly discovered that dyslexia had nothing to do with it - she was attempting to read via whole-word recognition, and all she required was a crash course in phonics. So I read along with her, wrote out mistaken words on a white board, drew lines through the syllable breaks, and guided her through vowel sounds. As would be expected with a gifted child, she made rapid progress. We celebrated her triumphs together, and that sense of learned helplessness began evaporating under rays of confidence.

So the formula for success in this case were:

1) Consistent enforcement.
2) Investigation of source of perceived inability.
3) Scaffolding and building of skills and confidence.

@Dude, I appreciate your response. I think I'll need to find a similar balance since my son does have obvious lagging skills. I'm okay with him failing, but heck, a B would devestate him. LOL! My little perfectionist! He hasn't taken a test or gotten any graded papers back yet, but he is already very motivated by grades.

Regarding the 300 words per day writing assignment, I pointed out that would take about 9 hours (per day). He had a little indignant tantrum and boy did his pencil fly after that! He wrote out about 300 words in a half hour. He is writing again tonight, getting close to 300. I'm delighted because his success or lack of will be based more on his writing ability than on his behavior.

I got a login for the schools' parent portal. I LOVE THIS THING. We had a family meeting over his 3 days of data. He was late to a class, and went to the wrong classroom for resource one day. Excused absences, but boy, accountability is leaving an impression upon him!

He attempted to sort out his homework and supplies by himself after school and had it done before I arrived. His solution today was "I have a test in every class". (Not true), so bring everything home. Not the most efficient solution, but I noticed he tried.

We had a conversation about his taking school lunch issue in elementary school, since the parent portal listed all the changes to his account. He tried saying he "forgot", he tried saying he was being "lazy", he tried whining "I don't know". These are his ADHD excuses. I rejected those excuses and he confesses to eating school lunch to try to fit in. I'm not sure that's completely true since he started the year with a group of friends that all brought lunches. Perhaps some friendships changed. We are working on a restitution punishment. His lunch account was wrongly marked as free/reduced price. We calculated the amount that came from that and he'll have to earn it and give that amount to a charity that benefits children in our town. So far the only option he has for earning it is selling his fancy-pants backpack. That's heavy-hitting for a kid who is turning to possessions for a sense of self-worth.

He is struggling with wanting to use objects (including hot lunch, excessively large adulty scissors, and an oversized neon backpack) as status symbols. I suppose this is a normal human thing, but joining a new social group seems to be an ideal time to nip it.

He has a new crush. Girl is same age - also grade-skipped but a few years ago. She's out of his league, she's just got "it". He says adorably earnestly that he wants to be good enough for this girl. YES! For motivation!

How long do you think I should wait before asking for single subject acceleration in math? He's doing fine in his classes, but math is easy. No studying required. Very little homework, just a couple minutes. He has a bunch of easy classes - social studies, band, gym, and math.

Social studies is easy, but it's new material so I think it's appropriate placement still.

He has been playing his instrument for 3 years and he's playing with students who have only had their instruments for 3 months. He has had the same teacher for thoose 3 years - the middle school band director also teaches for the virtual charter school my son attended. So I'm thinking this will be an easy class for now and next year he can do solo/ensemble for a challenge.

Do I wait until more grades come in? Do I ask for it for third trimester? Or wait for next year? Can anyone help me navigate this?

Without knowing the particulars of what he's studying in what his particular school calls 7th-grade math, I suggest that the best course of action on the math front is to do nothing.

1) Based on the previous history, it looks like your DS has plenty to deal with on the executive function front. He could very well benefit from using this year as a personal growth year, with executive function as his focus, because harder material is not far ahead.

2) This is 7th grade, not 2nd. The material is more difficult to fill in when gaps occur. And the further into the school year he gets, the more material he would have missed in the new class.

My DD12 experienced 7th grade math last year through a cross-country move, nearly halfway through the school year, to a new school with a very ineffective teacher. Then she began 8th grade in yet another new school, only to be transferred once more three weeks later. While her experience wouldn't be as significant as skipping an entire year, it did leave her behind the curve in 8th grade math (all other subjects are fine). And while her executive function is excellent, she is investing the time after school with a really great teacher who is committed to helping DD excel, and DD's grades are plenty acceptable as a result, my DD does share your DS's trait of perfectionism. DD's get-it-done attitude does get frequently interrupted by howls of self-doubt. I'm constantly having to counter-message, because "I'm bad at math" is not a successful identity trait for a future robotics engineer.

The class seems to be standard 7th grade math since Common Core. It's pre-algebra just touching what was the beginning of Algebra 1 when I was in high school. I reviewed the learning targets and noticed the first unit of the year contains material DS10 hasn't been taught. I may ask his teacher if he's willing to teach this material to DS10 during Resource.

I decided to ask for continuous progress acceleration in math without changing classrooms.

The principal called today. They're moving DS10 to 8th grade math after holiday break and if that goes well they're moving him to Algebra 1 for third trimester. I was hoping for that, but asked for the continuous progress acceleration to be politically correct and play my cards well.

Nice work!

Happy update. All is well. We're not putting him in Algebra 1 this year yet to give him a chance to get more mature classroom behavior. Well, the only problem was no one told him what the behavior expectation is for hand raising. Once I explained, he fixed his behavior. That's all okay. I had told him his behavior would affect his acceleration opportunities, so I'm happy that played out quickly and not too painfully. In lieu of acceleration into Algebra, he will have opportunity to test out of Algebra 1 and skip it entirely.

He picked up study skills quickly and is already saying his classes are too easy. He only has a few study skills mastered, but I doubt he will add to his repertoire without more academic challenge. His executive functioning has continued to improve. He is on a lower dose of methylphenidate than at the beginning of the shcool year too.

Great news!

Well..... so not great update. DS11 has been having trouble in school. 3 core classes are "too easy" so he stopped using study skills and his grades dropped predictably. Might be easy, but it's still new material. The 4th is a project-based class for top 10th percentile students, and it's intended to push them. It's a bad fit for DS11. He fell behind, perfectionism, anxiety, procrastination, lying to cover up, and his grades dropped from straight As to C to D-.

School is ignoring his lagging skills, saying it's *only* a behavior problem. Principal made a comment that student-led learning is "inappropriate" and a bad "habit" and insinuated DS11 is lazy. Oh my. I am one angry momma! DS11 has been doing homework 40 hours per week outside of school. He is incredibly slow and inefficient at doing his homework, but it's not like he is playing or watching TV. DS11 is VERY sleep deprived, still beating himself up and pushing for A honor roll again. He has been physically sick with a lingering cold. His home behavior has changed from passive to aggressive with screaming, name-calling (directed at me), throwing things, breaking things, slamming doors, etc.

To make it all worse, DS11 finally told me he has been verbally and physically harassed at school for months, originating out of gym class. Remember how the principal said he would keep DS11 with age mates for gym class? That didn't happen. I've had an optimistic "we'll try it and see what happens" attitude about his accelerations and classroom placements, and now I'm regretting not sticking to my guns on the gym class issue.

I have requested DS11 be removed from the project-based classroom as soon as his late work is caught up. I requested his 504 be reviewed. Harassment is being investigated.

I am working on my Plan B for next year if I'm not satisfied with how the situation resolves. I just can't get over their refusal to address his slow processing speed adequately. I am seriously considering putting him in community college next year, just one class per semester. Most the classes are high school level, IMO. I know a couple of the instructors, have taken some of the classes I know he can handle. He took placement testing 2 summers ago, so I know he is academically capable. He has proven he can adopt organization and study skills (and learned a hard lesson about why they must be maintained). He has proven he can manage pieces of his schedule independently and get to where he needs to go by himself. I think all the pieces are in place and he is ready. One liiiiiittle problem is it eliminates the public school option completely. It's either community college, homeschool, or gap years left if I do it.

What would this look like?

Is the processing speed at the epicenter of the problem... or just an added complication, once he fell behind?

Would you say the executive function / study skills are the crux of the matter?

The violent outbursts and lack of restraint in speech are not ok under any circumstances, although I understand that sleep deprivation may be a trigger.

Hopefully he continues to learn from this experience and does not repeat it.

Lending you support. Keep in touch. Let us know if there is any info we can help you locate.

The combination of slow processing speed and the fast pace of the STEM project-based class are the root problem. Everything else is complicating or compounding it.

I want to see a homework limit. I think 20 or 30 minutes per class per day, so 2 - 3 hours per day is a reasonable maximum. For the homework that requires special at-school technology, I want the homework limited to what he can do at school (including the 30 minutes after school his teacher will let him stay and work on it), and be graded only on the completed portion.

I want him removed from the STEM project-based class. The principal talks about it being a shame if his behavior limits his intellect. Seriously? Leaving the class is not going to reduce his IQ and the pace of the class is the cause of the behavior problems. I was suspicious from the beginning, since their plan to encourage a reluctant (anxious, perfectionist) writer was to require him to write a 5,000 word narrative, on a deadline, for a competition, and to encourage him to publish. It has gone as badly as I expected.

DS11 has stopped the cycle of falling behind in his other classes. He is using his study skills and his new grades are similar to second trimester. He has maintained an organization system since I intervened and helped him (emotionally) work through weeks of papers.

He has one late assignment left. It's a long assignment on drafting shapes on 3D printer software. It's the exact sort of tedious, multi-step project that plays to his weaknesses. It's on special computer/software that he has limited access to, so he can't use his strategy of spending extra time on it. This 3D printing drafting unit is until the end of the year, there are other similar assignments he has not started yet.

I have not heard back from the school. I am waiting impatiently for a clue about how much conflict (or not) might be involved in resolving the situation.

Thank you for your support. <3

Ideally, he would have shared this with you at the time of the first incident. Please impress upon your child that timing can be crucial to resolving these types of situations. In real-time, one would begin to document facts (Who, what, where, when, why, how) at home. My thoughts now would be to work with your son to try to construct a timeline, at home, documenting what occurred, and the context.

Once you have all the facts as he is able to relate them, you can evaluate whether this is something to bring forward to the school... or, as is sometimes the case, whether the negative feelings may be out of proportion to what actually occurred.

There is an amount of humor, sarcasm, joking equally at everyone's expense, which is part of bonding over human fallibility... this is different than targeted belittlement of one person with intent to exclude or ostracize... however some individuals may become easily overwhelmed by banter and not see it as an overall pattern which invites them to reciprocate with their own humorous observations; they may feel attacked and rejected rather than feeling noticed, included, and accepted despite their foibles. It appears that individuals with perfectionism and lack of resilience may be especially prone to misinterpretation, what is sometimes referred to as being thin-skinned.

Based on this post, is it possible that their plan is to encourage him that done is better than perfect? This is something he may need to learn in order to be college-and-career ready.

I would suggest that he may need to see himself as having an identity which does not include a crippling level of anxiety/perfectionism... borrowing from mindset: it is OK to make mistakes, we learn from them... procrastination is not a useful strategy for avoiding facing the fact that we may make mistakes, especially when trying something new, different, or challenging. Writing/publishing can be a great way to address this, as writing is a reiterative process, including proofreading-critique-refinement.

As a parent, rather than stating that he is anxious/perfectionistic, might you want to describe these as his current challenge areas that he is working to break free from?

Well, he's NOT working at breaking free from perfectionism. He thinks perfectionism is a good quality. Nothing anyone says can change his mind. :sigh: It's been an issue for 6 years.

There is a difference between wanting to do one's best, and perfectionism.

Doing one's best may involve getting halfway through a project, realizing you've learned so much that you can easily critique your initial work up to this point, and wanting to start over or at least polish up your work a bit (depending upon the amount of time available). This is a healthy, vulnerable, flexible way of thinking.

Perfectionism may involve getting halfway through a project, realizing you've learned so much that you can easily critique your initial work up to this point, and becoming angry, frustrated, down on one's self, calling one's self stupid, deriding one's self, exploding... or perfectionism may involve freezing with procrastination to avoid reaching the point of making mistakes, because one does not yet have the tools to deal with their mistakes in a positive way. These are unhealthy, walled-off, isolated, inflexible ways of thinking, and may be intertwined with a person's unrealistic view of themselves, a negative view of mistakes, and/or a fragile concept of one's identity as "smart": Gifted kids may stop taking appropriate risks in order to always be "right" or always be seen as "smart" or never be "wrong", and this may work against them as a fixed mindset and lack of resilience.

There are books which address the dangers of perfectionism, highlight how it does not serve one well, and help provide seeds for changes in one's thinking. People can learn to acknowledge their mistakes, take them in stride, learn from them, correct them, realizing that much of life is a reiterative process and that mistakes do not diminish us. Link to old post with good article.

If nothing can talk your son out of valuing perfectionism...
possibly he could be talked into valuing being perfectly resilient?

Regarding the late assignment of drafting-shapes-on-3D-printer-software that has to be performed on special computer/software to which he has limited access: note that BlocksCAD and Tinkercad are both student-oriented, 3D design software that run in a browser (no need to install any software) over the Internet, capable of producing STL files suitable for 3D printing. Tinkercad has a visual, drag-shapes-around-and-click sort of interface; BlocksCAD takes a more programming language approach (it's essentially the visual Scratch programming language combined with the OpenSCAD design package -- if your son has done any computer programming previously, this may be appealing). Autodesk, maker of a variety of professional quality CAD packages, makes some of its CAD software available for free to students: for instance, one such higher level package is Autodesk Fusion 360. And there are other free-version packages for 3D design, producing output suitable for 3D printing, also.

So depending upon what the assignment really involves, a question that would occur to me would be whether it *really* needs to be done on that limited-access platform: could the assignment be modified for your son so that he could work on it (or something equivalent to it) on a more easily accessible platform? Also, some people (including me) have quite strong preferences regarding the operation of user interfaces for designing: maybe your son already loves the software the class is using, but if not, he might find some other software interface more to his taste. Or even if he really and truly has to complete the assignment on the school computer/package -- maybe some more leisurely, on his own time, experimentation using a different (but free! and accessible!) design package would enable him to feel more capable and be more efficient during his limited time on the school computer/package.

Thank you both for your input! Indigo, you are spot-on about the perfectionism, and I like your "perfectly resilient" idea! Might work!

Thanks for the feedback, hope you and kiddo have a great weekend!

The principal has told me that DS11 cannot have slow processing speed because he finished a 6th grade standardized multiple choice English test in less time than his classmates. What?! DS11 tests at college level on that type of test! Of course 6th grade was easy and fast! Duh! And the principal has refused to schedule a 504 revision meeting and denies that there was ever a 504 plan set up for him. HIS WIFE DETERMINED ELIGIBILITY AND SET UP THE PLAN! Omg, don't get me started! He told me that processing speed can't be accommodated if he's not taking stimulant medications. I could sue the school or just walk away from the mess. I have DS3 up and coming in to the school system and his father is extremely anti-homeschool, so I'm more concerned about burning bridges than pursuing justice.

I'm looking at community college enrollment for DS11 next year. Harder classes and he can take fewer of them. I don't know if that's officially homeschool in my state but I've contacted the state's homeschool office for help.

My conclusions from thie school year are
1) don't reverse acceleration due to ADHD
2) underachieving is a big deal