Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Update on my dd/gifted program/question about WISC

I wanted to give a quick update on my dd. The person in charge of the program has been on vacation so I have been waiting to hear back. The school never was able to give me more information on the InView test score(you all were more knowledgeable!). They couldn't tell me her score was lower because it was based on her age or answer any of my questions really. They have decided to administer the WISC test to her and see how she does. They wanted to see if I would agree to that and if so contact a school Psychologist who could administer and score the test.

I am happy that they are looking for more data and not just excluding my dd so that makes me happy, but I am nervous about this test because I don't know a lot about it.

Can you guys give me pointers on what questions to ask or things to know before she takes it? I want to follow up with the administrator via email thanking them for the call today and provide any questions or expectations I have for my dd taking the test.

My specific questions:

Should I ask for a specific test(is there a long and short form)?

Are there different reports, what should I look for?

Are there qualifications I should ask for with the person administering the test?

Any advice on preparing my child for this test? She does well in a 1 on 1 environment, but I don't want her to feel stressed out about taking it.

I will ask for what score they are looking for her to get prior to the test.

Any advice or information is very much appreciated!!

You'll want to know if the WISC-IV or WISC-V is being administered, and after testing is completed you'll want to receive a report of the subtests and test results. If the school is administering the WISC, you many not be able to select specific test administrator qualifications (such as familiarity with gifted).

Other recent posts about IQ testing include this discussion,
and a post comparing Yermish article on test prep, and Webb article on testing here.

Your DD may actually enjoy the testing. FWIW, both of my DC actually enjoyed it.

I also think it is a positive sign that your school will consider other data.

The Yermish article is a good one. Best of luck!

Whether the administrator is school-based or private, he or she generally must be certified as a school psychologist (by the state DOE), or licensed as a psychologist (by the state board of licensing), or, in certain largely clinic-based situations, operating under the direct supervision of a person who is properly certified or licensed. (In the last case, the administrator is almost always master's or CAGS-level trained in his/her own right, or finishing up a doctoral internship.) It is unusual for there to be any problem with examiner qualifications for a school-based cognitive assessment.

As more than a decade separates the age of the norms, the WISC-IV will probably be a bit inflated (read a bit higher than) compared to the WISC-V. Both instruments are excellent, and are likely to be better representations of your daughter's true capacity than InView.

I would not worry about preparation. It is designed to be taken without any preparation other than the common-sense ones, such as being well-rested, fed, comfortably clothed, and relaxed. There are a variety of tasks, and a range of difficulties. It is normal to find some items easier and others more challenging. She should just try her best on all of them.

Thanks for the responses. I think she will enjoy it. I am more concerned about telling her why she is being tested vs preparing her for the questions. It is now summer, so going to school to take a test will be odd. I have to either tell her that it is for further evaluation for the gifted program(which she is aware of because she is in the math section of it already) which may stress her out or lie to her about why she is taking the test( which makes me feel uncomfortable). I just don't want her to feel bad if she doesn't get in, but want to be honest. I know she responds well to pressure and doesn't get nervous really so I am leaning towards just being upfront. I liked the article that was shared and was thinking of just reading it to her. It gives enough information on what to expect.

We are a public school so it sounds like we will be in good hands. I will find out what version she will be taking when I email the administrator.

Do you know how long it takes to receive a copy of the report? Are there certain scores I should ask them to include or is this test pretty much administered the same way for every child.

I thought there were short versions of some of the testing, but cannot find information on that for this one so maybe I am confusing it.

There is a short form. See Hoagies Gifted Education Page on Tests and use the quicklinks for Wechsler(WISC).

You might want to ask about the anticipated length of the testing, any breaks, and whether you ought to send a snack and beverage for your child.

There is a short version, called the WASI or WASI-II, but if they said WISC, it is doubtful that the short version is involved.

I usually tell children that the testing helps us to understand how they learn best, so that schools and teachers can teach them in a way that is more suited to the way they learn. This, BTW, has value whether or not she is ultimately enrolled in the GT program.

The core of the test is administered the same way to every child, but examiners can make clinical decisions about substituting certain subtests (such as when there is reason to believe that the standard subtest is not a good reflection of the child's ability, or the subtest is otherwise "spoiled" by nonstandard conditions). The main index score that you will certainly receive is the FSIQ, which is the global measure. You should also receive the VCI, PRI, WMI, PSI (or VCI, VSI, FRI, if the WISC-V). There are also two alternative index scores that can be calculated--one easily, and one only with access to more obscure tables. The GAI would be the one which any examiner can calculate, and the one most likely to be of interest for GT purposes. This is a combination of the VCI & PRI (or VCI, VSI, FRI). (The CPI is used less often, as it needs separate tables.) The WISC-V has many more options for ancillary index scores outside of the core subtests, in addition to the GAI: WMI, PSI, NVI, CPI, QRI, AWMI. A handful of pre-reading related index scores are also available, but not likely to be administered in this case. The WMI and PSI used to be included automatically, but no longer are, on the -V, as only one WM and one PS subtest are needed for the FSIQ.

I expect this is very confusing. The bottom line is, you really want: FSIQ, GAI, VCI, PRI (or VSI, FRI). The others will be of interest mainly if they are discrepant from these. You can describe these as the IQ and all available index scores, including the GAI.

Testing time is typically an hour or so, but may be longer with a GT or highly conscientious child, or with many breaks.

I can't think of any technical questions to ask that haven't already been mentioned, but I would ask *when* they will test her (what part of her school day). Our elementary school didn't let parents know ahead of time (or students), and my ds was pulled out for testing during an elective that he'd waited and waited and waited to participate in. He was SO BUMMED! I'm still to this day amazed that he didn't totally tank his school testing.

Best wishes,

polarbear

That was one of my concerns with preparing her/ talking to her about the test. It is summer break so she is going to school just to be tested. She is going to be wondering why and I didn't want to stress her out about knowing it is dealing with placement in the ELA section of the gifted program. She is already in the math section.

I'm no professional, but I could add a couple points based on our experience:

Find out if it is WISC IV or V. If it's the WISC-IV, make sure they are ready to offer "extended norms" questions. They use these when a kid hits the maximum score on the typical norms. The extended norms allow a much better picture of level of giftedness for highly gifted kids. And - they CANNOT go back and add on extended norms after the fact (as I understand it). They have to just keep going through questions after a kid hits the normal ceiling.

[My understanding is that there are no extended norms for WISC V, though I don't understand why not.]

If your kid does hit extended norms on one or more subtests, the WISC IV could take a lot more than an hour. DS7 hit ceilings on 4 subtests, AND he is a serious perfectionist. So his WISC IV took in excess of 4 hours and we had to split it up over a couple days. His brain was TIRED after two hours even though he enjoyed it. So make sure they are willing to split the test up over a couple days if - preferably before - kiddo gets exhausted. Oh - and I'd send fun snacks, drinks and chewing gum, whether they say it's necessary or not. Better safe than sorry.

FWIW - if they look at you with blank stares when you say "extended norms" or "GAI," it's a good bet they aren't that experienced with highly gifted children. It doesn't sound like you have much choice in who you use, but it will be good to know if they are up to speed on this challenging, interesting sort of kid. And I do find that the idea of extended norms is a real tell for gifted experience.

As always, ignore this if aeh or other pros contradict it. I'm just a mom feeling my way in the dark!

And best of luck with the stress. Whatever the outcome, you'll get some useful info that will be helpful for working with your child!!

One more thing re what to say about the test - I told DS who was 6 at the time that the test would help us understand the best ways for him to learn. I also told him that if he did his best, it would probably mean that he would get to do more interesting work at school SOONER. I didn't suggest that anything would be lost if he didn't do well. Seemed to be enough oaf a carrot for him, with out making him too anxious.

Not exactly. They have to keep going until they get to the discontinuation criteria, even if the child cannot normally score any higher on the subtest by getting more question right. Then, if the child qualifies to use extended norms, they look up the raw scores on an extended norms table to get subtest scores that go above 19. But there are no extra questions or anything like that - it's just giving the test in the standard manner, without stopping it early because there's "no point" in going farther. Ask for the raw scores, as well as the indices, if you are interested in this, because you can calculate the extended norms without having them do it, if you want to.

Because no one has tested a large group of gifted students with the WISC-V to calculate gifted extended norms yet. Someone may eventually, or they may not.

Ah - thanks for clarifying. But so the tester needs to keep going, not stop, when kiddo hits the maximum score correct? So still worth double-checking to make sure the tester will use extended norms as appropriate?

I believe the rule of thumb is to calculate extended norms if two or more subtest scores are a 19. Fewer than this and I don't think extended norms are going to yield a wildly different answer than the regular ones.

OK - I'm going to stop trying to explain myself here, because I'm making a mess of it.

But to the OP - when our tester used extended norms, my DS's FSIQ went up by almost one standard deviation (14 points) and his VCI went up by more than two standard deviations (33 points). So I'm darned glad we have that data. When it makes a difference it can make a huge difference. I'd want to know they would be prepared to provide this for your child if, as George summarizes, it's appropriate to calculate them.

Basically, the tester just needs to use the actual stop criterion for the test. Some will stop before a child has missed the requisite number of items, because they "know" it won't make any difference to continue.

I personally would be too nervous about asking for extended norms before my child has taken the test the first time, because I would think it made me look like "that mom" too much. I would ask for the raw scores, and also ask if they used the stop criterion given by the test, if I saw a couple of 19s on the report.

If it is a standardized administration (according to the rules), there will be absolutely no difference in testing process between the regular norms and extended norms. It's just a question of which tables are used to convert the raw scores.

I would agree that asking about extended norms should only enter the picture after the results are obtained. They are also relevant primarily when there 2+ 19s among the subtest scaled scores, and when the index score in question is near the top of the regular norms (140s and up). If there are no 19s, the extended norms won't change anything. If the index scores are all below 140, then differences resulting from use of the extended norms probably reflect outliers among the subtest scores, which means additional clinical interpretation is necessary anyway.

Thank you everyone for the additional information. The test is set up for Monday at 9am. Hopefully the results won't take too long to get. We told her about the test and she is excited to take ot. Hopefully she will feel comfortable around the person administering the test.

She is going to be taking the WISC-IV and they are looking for a score equivalent to a CSI of a 132 on the InView according to the Principal when I inquired about what qualifications they were looking for. Is this test scored with a CSI? What score would be equivalent?

Aeh, what about those who had 1 19 and a bunch of 17s and indices in the 140s? Is the thinking that extended norms might make a little difference but not a significant one?

George, yes, that is the thinking. You would only be able to apply extended norms to the single subtest with a 19. The maximum scaled score possible, even with extended norms, would be 28. This might have a moderate effect on the index score in question, but a negligible effect on the FSIQ. The trade-offs with switching to the extended norms, which were developed from a fairly small norm group of HG+ children (versus the standard norms, based on thousands of data points), are not worth the relatively small improvement in spreading the curve.

sigep,

The equivalent to a CSI of 132 is an FSIQ or GAI of 130 on the WISC-IV. The GAI should be considered seriously, because there are no equivalents to the WMI and PSI portions of the WISC-IV on InView.

Great thank you aeh. I just want to make sure the school is on the same page. I don't know why they aren't committing to a score on WISC and giving me numbers from InView. It is making me question what they are doing.