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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 948
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 948 |
I'm so sorry to hear this and I totally understand your frustration! With my one ds, his scores in 1st grade were abysmal (much, much worse than your dd... under the 20th%-ile on the non-verbal portion of the OLSAT). We knew it was NOT representative of his abilities, but of course, I felt like an idiot because I had definitely pushed for some acceleration (and yes, I knew it wasn't about me, but I did take it very personally, no matter how ridiculous that was... sigh). Anyway, through some talks with him, we eventually came to the conclusion that being read the questions was the issue (he said it was hard to hear them and hard to focus; he had some sensitivities to noise when he was younger). He read extremely fluently in first grade and I think he would have done much better with written instructions. He often "spaced out" in his thinking and was off in his own little world. Thank God they did a whole-school testing early in 2nd and he was immediately identified as gifted (only those recommended by parents or teachers were tested in first). He has never scored poorly on a standardized test again - he even rocked the SATs in 6th grade (given through his gifted program). But, I've never forgotten that abysmal test because it helps me remember to trust my OWN judgement. And BTW, he was fine with not being identified in first. In some ways, I think it made him more empathetic - when his best friend, who was identified in first grade (one of only two kids), didn't qualify to continue the gifted in middle school, he immediately talked about the tests just being one factor and often not getting it right. I think my experience is not that unusual. My oldest (PG) was initially id'd as gifted, but barely. My second was not only not id'd in the first two tests, but we were told with a clucking sympathy that these tests (not real IQ, just the school ones)were very accurate and the numbers did NOT change. My youngest (thank God, I was tired by then) was id'd immediately, and I have to admit, it's a whole lot easier when the school tests match up with what you know is correct, but don't let this discourage you too much. You KNOW your daughter and you KNOW that this test did not accurately reflect her knowledge and her intelligence! Thank you for this. It is the kind of thing I think somehow must have been going on, and it helps me to trust my instincts about her. Also the cut-off for k-2nd is 99%, so it isn't like in 3rd when a much larger number of kids get IDed. I do like the principal--this was part of his response: "Dd is not just (or perhaps not at all) the scores on that paper. I think you know dd very well." I hope that when we do testing it is a tester she has a good rapport with and that she cooperates. It will be very interesting to see WISC results I think. Oh--and she is my 3rd, and I am tired! haha!
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Cricket thank you so much--I wasn't having luck finding this discussion and thought I remembered it. At this point it wouldn't really serve a purpose, but I am tempted to put something together for the principal. I guess I will just wait for WISC results and then hopefully be able to say, "SEE! I TOLD YOU!"
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,035
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,035 |
I tutored in a school last year (different district) and the district used the Naglieri Nonverbal ability Test (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly). Anyway, I had some spare time on my hands and the gifted teacher gave me the kids score sheets and asked me to figure out exactly how old they were at the time they took the test. She had asked each kid to report their date of birth on the top of the test. Then, she was going to figure out their score by taking their age and looking in the score booklet. The tests were completely hand-scored. She had done about 20 or 30 ages on the tests already. She had one kid off by 2 years, putting him 2 years older than he actually was! There were several other discrepancies like that. It is very easy to make a mistake if you are looking at dozens of tests, and you are trying to score them in your free time with lots of interruptions. It requires a certain amount of intelligence on the part of the scorer. Say you know the date of the test was 2-13-2013 and the kids' date of birth 5-09-2005 so how many years, months and days old were they when they took the test? The test scorer's skill (or intelligence? :)) in "coding" and "arithmetic" (among other things, probably) is important in terms of figuring out which answers are right and wrong, marking it correctly, and then adding up the score. These were NOT computer generated score reports. I went through all of them that had already been done to make sure they had been done correctly in terms of calculating age, and made several changes (after computing and re-computing). When I showed the errors to the g/t lady and said she should double-check all the tests she just laughed--didn't seem too concerned.
I wondered about DD's CogAT score report and whether it was correct because she had been grade accelerated, so was the youngest in the grade, yet her age and grade percentiles were practically the same. But, I didn't want to look like a nut by questioning it, esp. if it HAD been scored correctly. I would have wanted to slap her. I suppose at least she is not doing medical testing with that attitude.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 948
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 948 |
I tutored in a school last year (different district) and the district used the Naglieri Nonverbal ability Test (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly). Anyway, I had some spare time on my hands and the gifted teacher gave me the kids score sheets and asked me to figure out exactly how old they were at the time they took the test. She had asked each kid to report their date of birth on the top of the test. Then, she was going to figure out their score by taking their age and looking in the score booklet. The tests were completely hand-scored. She had done about 20 or 30 ages on the tests already. She had one kid off by 2 years, putting him 2 years older than he actually was! There were several other discrepancies like that. It is very easy to make a mistake if you are looking at dozens of tests, and you are trying to score them in your free time with lots of interruptions. It requires a certain amount of intelligence on the part of the scorer. Say you know the date of the test was 2-13-2013 and the kids' date of birth 5-09-2005 so how many years, months and days old were they when they took the test? The test scorer's skill (or intelligence? :)) in "coding" and "arithmetic" (among other things, probably) is important in terms of figuring out which answers are right and wrong, marking it correctly, and then adding up the score. These were NOT computer generated score reports. I went through all of them that had already been done to make sure they had been done correctly in terms of calculating age, and made several changes (after computing and re-computing). When I showed the errors to the g/t lady and said she should double-check all the tests she just laughed--didn't seem too concerned.
I wondered about DD's CogAT score report and whether it was correct because she had been grade accelerated, so was the youngest in the grade, yet her age and grade percentiles were practically the same. But, I didn't want to look like a nut by questioning it, esp. if it HAD been scored correctly. I would have wanted to slap her. I suppose at least she is not doing medical testing with that attitude. This is so sad. And could make a real difference in a child's opportunities. Honestly when I first saw dd's scores I thought it must be due to some kind of mistake like this.
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,157
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,157 |
The odds are probably low (esp. if you have a report from the CogAT company), but you never know. I'm also not sure if all the CogAT forms are bubbled/computer scored, or could some be hand-scored? Could it be that some kids don't bubble well enough for the scanner to pick it up? It wouldn't hurt to see if they still have the answer sheet. I was pretty sure DD's scores were at least somewhat close because she left so many blank (the report I had indicated the number of questions attempted and the number of correct answers)--and not finishing is something I can see her doing because she takes her jolly time with everything and it was timed. She finished the verbal section, and it's harder to get excessively involved with short verbal questions. They put her in the cluster based on the finished verbal section, and that was the goal at that point. I knew even if there was an error with her birthday it wasn't enough to make a difference for the magnet so she'd need to do another test anyway. It wouldn't hurt to ask--they may think you're nuts but at least it would put your mind at ease.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,245 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,245 Likes: 1 |
I would have wanted to slap her. Personally I would have wanted to share with her an online tool to efficiently, accurately provide the student's age in years, months, days on the date of the test... because this is what would help the children, ongoing. Many may benefit. The gifted teacher may be suffering a bit of fixed mindset, and may benefit by knowing there is help available, both in the form of a technical tool... and also staff members watching out for each other, a safety net, a team to count on. Growth mindset can be both contagious and inspirational. Sometimes it does not matter who was right first... as much as it matters that we can help more people "get it" and be right: doing the right thing for the children. Meanwhile, knowing errors may occur, parents may wish to calculate their child/ren's age in years, months, and days when their child is taking any screening assessment or test. This calculated age may be kept in the parent's file of advocacy records in the event it is ever needed.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,245 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,245 Likes: 1 |
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,733
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,733 |
Wow - that is upsetting. 
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