So today we get the Cogat results. So curious but very skeptical it is the best tool and resigned that in the spring we need to do private testing regardless. Also beginning to second guess myself. Is dd6 really *that* gifted? She seems to be leveling out and looking more like a regular bright first grader. (which is fine if that is what she is--I just don't want to deprive her of more of a challenge if she needs it). And prob. because I let her watch too much TV and she is mathy/sciencey and we are not and so she doesn't get to do all of the great stuff that other parents on here seem to be doing with their kids. It would be nice though if Cogat were high enough that I could argue school should do further testing to complete IAS. Will update later.

Some kids do great on the CogAT. If they actually finish the test and put effort into it, the result is probably somewhat accurate. The problem with my DD was that she only answered 50 percent of the quantitative questions and about 2/3 of the non-verbal--the rest of the test was left blank. The test should have been immediately invalidated and they should have offered to give her something else. But they didn't. I had to scrutinize the score report to figure out she didn't finish it. DD scored over the 99.9th percentile on the WISC for non-verbal and her GAI was 150 (without extended norms). The look on the psych's face when I handed over the CogAT report was priceless! It also took her a minute to figure out DD left so many questions unanswered. Since I knew NOTHING about the CogAT when I got the score report I was horrified as well--the scores did not align at all with DD's achievement testing and the abilities that we see at home.
And BTW, NO, she does not appear to be THAT gifted. I was hoping she would just squeak by with the WISC. So many people on this site talk about their highly motivated kids who obviously operate several years ahead in all areas and that is not what I see with DD. If someone gave her a "Rainbow Magic" book, she would happily read it. She watches "My Little Pony." In fact I think her teacher would describe her as "slow" in some areas, but that is because she has 2e issues. I think kids with high non-verbal as opposed to verbal do not appear to be as obviously bright, it is more hidden. My DS is the same way. You would never know talking to him that his GAI on the WISC is above the 99th percentile. Regardless of what the CogAT tells you, get more testing done so you know for sure what you're dealing with. We paid $400 for a WISC for DD. I was worried about paying that much but it was worth it.

I know a girl who was told she was allowed to read a book when she was done with the CogAT. So she did the first third, decided she was done, and read for the rest of the session. No appeal - she went to private school because she was not going to be allowed into the public gifted program.

Many children who do well on other tests (IQ, achievement), seem to not score as high as expected on the CogAT. There are many things that could cause a bright child not to do well on a group test. So remember, it is just one day and one test. Some DC might do better on another type of test.

My DD got lucky and did well, but I'd mentally prepared for the worst because CogAT is so much trouble for so many bright kiddos around here. Still, DD's Q scores were far below her achievement scores in math, so this is a different kind of test. Honestly, though, her verbal abilities are probably her strength and her scores were quite high there - so maybe the test was right about her. Still...just one test! If you think your DD is bright, she probably is!

I completely understand. Actually, after ds took Wisc last spring; I asked principal what would happen if Cogat score was low. She made it seem like it wouldn't be a big deal- not so sure now. (Now, we are just hoping he'll get in the program even if its for the rest of the year.)

What I do think is YOU are a better judge of your child. You know.

My ds can seem like any other silly 1st grade boy sometimes. Other times, he amazes me with the ideas/ theories he is contemplating. Not to mention, he is so intense and sensitive- more than your avg 1st grader.

Since receiving our Cogat scores, I am so thankful we have those Wisc scores, because otherwise I would be doubting everything! I would probably have a really hard time, honestly.

As others have said, the Cogat is one not so great test on one day. If it does not give you the answers you are looking for; get private testing.

Good luck! Keep us posted!

Thanks everyone. I have been following posts on CogAt for awhile, and my dd12, who has done great with a skip, had a significant gap between CogAt and WISC. Dd6 seems like she could be the kind of divergent thinker that the CogAt would be good at underestimating. OK, I really am heading out now to pick the scores up!

Well S^&*. If I am reading the report correctly this is useless. Dd's grade percentile rank:
Verbal 40
Quant 88
Nonverbal 62
Composite 67

That is not my kid. I have experience teaching kids in pre-k through 5th and I know what is typical, she is not typical and the verbal score in particular is just shocking. I can't imagine the reasons that would lead to those scores. I believe the teacher read the questions out loud so she couldn't have rushed. Maybe she bubbled wrong? Or completely overthought? Anyone who knows her, including the school secretary when I picked up the scores, was like, wha??? That can't be right. She has a huge vocabulary etc.

Argh.

I thought she would at least qualify for the gifted 1 day/week pull-out that starts in Jan. and that we would go ahead and test in the spring for more info. I hate that she will now not start the gifted pull-out and wonder what she will think when a significant number of kids from her class go. We don't have the money until the spring anyway, but this is so frustrating! No easy answers with this kid.

Edited to add: these scores are also not consistent with her classroom performance. Grrrr. Stupid CogAt.

Oh, how frustrating and disappointing!

Does the school just use CogAT as a screen? Will they take the Q subtest score that is well above-average? Are your DD's age-normed scores perhaps higher than grade-normed scores?

Some schools appear to take decent subtest scores. Our school uses the CogAT V+Q composite as a screen, and the student needs a 120 SAS or above. Then your DC gets to take more tests.

For the record, I'm personally not a fan of cut scores for single tests with young children (um, do children under 10, even the brightest of them, REALLY not have "off-days"???). I'd rather have them really LOOK at/evaluate all of the data available (I realize the desire for objectivity, but some of these tests are flawed/imperfect).

Your DD also may be one of those kids who does a spectacular job on the WISC - go with your gut, and don't give up!

I'm sorry, deacaongirl. I'm glad you were prepared though,knowing it is a dumb test, and not totally shocked like I was. I have to wonder how many parents take the results at face value and give up on their kid.

I'm not sure if the school has minimum cut-offs for a composite or you can just use one score, but you could try to make a case about math, like Loy says, until you can get other testing. DD was accepted into the gifted program (for cluster grouping in the normal classroom) based on her 130 verbal score. Ironically, on the WISC, she is so much higher for non-verbal (as well as being over 130 for verbal) but the CogAT test did not pick up on the non-verbal abilities at all.

I wonder if they still have your DD's score sheet and if you could look at it, or at least see how many questions she answered.

My school uses the OLsat as a screen. Of course DS didn't score high enough. Not sure how the Cogat works but with the Olsat the question is only read once and not repeated at all. No way my DS could score super well under conditions like that especially with his processing speed issues. If the child does not get a qualifying score on the OLSAT then the school does not test the child with the WISC IV for ATP. But one can get their child tested privately and use qualifying WISC scores to get into the ATP. The Olsat doesn't get a child in, it only gets the school to test the child with the WISC to see if the child qualifies. Perhaps, it works the same in your school with the Cogat being a screen? I would look into it if I were you!

The good news is they will accept private testing. For k-2nd grade they have to be in 99% so she wouldn't make it with the 88% quant. score. The SAS was 119. I can only imagine what the (very nice) principal thinks of my request for eval. for acceleration last year in light of these scores. I hate feeling like I am crazy! GAAAH! Thanks for the feedback.

Hey- atleast they will take outside testing! Get her tested. I bet your feeling about her is right and will show:)

You're not crazy--it's just a bad test. You know your kid best. Hopefully when you get a real test it will all get sorted out.

I'm so sorry to hear this and I totally understand your frustration! With my one ds, his scores in 1st grade were abysmal (much, much worse than your dd... under the 20th%-ile on the non-verbal portion of the OLSAT). We knew it was NOT representative of his abilities, but of course, I felt like an idiot because I had definitely pushed for some acceleration (and yes, I knew it wasn't about me, but I did take it very personally, no matter how ridiculous that was... sigh). Anyway, through some talks with him, we eventually came to the conclusion that being read the questions was the issue (he said it was hard to hear them and hard to focus; he had some sensitivities to noise when he was younger). He read extremely fluently in first grade and I think he would have done much better with written instructions. He often "spaced out" in his thinking and was off in his own little world. Thank God they did a whole-school testing early in 2nd and he was immediately identified as gifted (only those recommended by parents or teachers were tested in first). He has never scored poorly on a standardized test again - he even rocked the SATs in 6th grade (given through his gifted program). But, I've never forgotten that abysmal test because it helps me remember to trust my OWN judgement.
And BTW, he was fine with not being identified in first. In some ways, I think it made him more empathetic - when his best friend, who was identified in first grade (one of only two kids), didn't qualify to continue the gifted in middle school, he immediately talked about the tests just being one factor and often not getting it right.
I think my experience is not that unusual. My oldest (PG) was initially id'd as gifted, but barely. My second was not only not id'd in the first two tests, but we were told with a clucking sympathy that these tests (not real IQ, just the school ones)were very accurate and the numbers did NOT change. My youngest (thank God, I was tired by then) was id'd immediately, and I have to admit, it's a whole lot easier when the school tests match up with what you know is correct, but don't let this discourage you too much. You KNOW your daughter and you KNOW that this test did not accurately reflect her knowledge and her intelligence!

It was a while back, but we (or I should say mostly I - lol) were posting some data about how the CogAT and other group tests did or did not accurately portray intelligence as compared to individual IQ tests here: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/158312/1.html

There is a movement to shift from schools identifying an individual as "gifted", to schools identifying pupils who would both:
1) need and/or benefit from "advanced academics" in a particular year,
2) be beneficial to the school's program for "advanced academics".

Rather than imparting a "gifted" label, programs of "advanced academics" may serve a flexible pool of students throughout the elementary-middle-high school experience. A new book, Beyond Gifted Education, Designing and Implementing Advanced Academic Programs by Peters, Matthews, McBee, and McCoach explores this concept. (link) Interested readers who view this link will find a free PDF sample from the book. One point examined in that PDF sample is that gifted services at some schools may currently consist largely or entirely of identifying "gifted" pupils via various tests and assessments, in other words, providing a "gifted" label. Therefore, an identification-focused program may provide little actual benefit to the students, their families, or the schools.

For parents interested in the "advanced academics" approach, this book may be worth reading and raising awareness of among other parents, teachers, and administrators in your local school.

I tutored in a school last year (different district) and the district used the Naglieri Nonverbal ability Test (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly). Anyway, I had some spare time on my hands and the gifted teacher gave me the kids score sheets and asked me to figure out exactly how old they were at the time they took the test. She had asked each kid to report their date of birth on the top of the test. Then, she was going to figure out their score by taking their age and looking in the score booklet. The tests were completely hand-scored. She had done about 20 or 30 ages on the tests already. She had one kid off by 2 years, putting him 2 years older than he actually was! There were several other discrepancies like that. It is very easy to make a mistake if you are looking at dozens of tests, and you are trying to score them in your free time with lots of interruptions. It requires a certain amount of intelligence on the part of the scorer. Say you know the date of the test was 2-13-2013 and the kids' date of birth 5-09-2005 so how many years, months and days old were they when they took the test? The test scorer's skill (or intelligence? :)) in "coding" and "arithmetic" (among other things, probably) is important in terms of figuring out which answers are right and wrong, marking it correctly, and then adding up the score. These were NOT computer generated score reports. I went through all of them that had already been done to make sure they had been done correctly in terms of calculating age, and made several changes (after computing and re-computing). When I showed the errors to the g/t lady and said she should double-check all the tests she just laughed--didn't seem too concerned.
I wondered about DD's CogAT score report and whether it was correct because she had been grade accelerated, so was the youngest in the grade, yet her age and grade percentiles were practically the same. But, I didn't want to look like a nut by questioning it, esp. if it HAD been scored correctly.

Interested readers may wish to help spread the word: There are free online programs which quickly provide these calculations. One is linked here- http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html

I told her there was probably something online (I didn't have access to a computer to check). Hopefully this year she will do it right.

Thank you for this. It is the kind of thing I think somehow must have been going on, and it helps me to trust my instincts about her. Also the cut-off for k-2nd is 99%, so it isn't like in 3rd when a much larger number of kids get IDed. I do like the principal--this was part of his response: "Dd is not just (or perhaps not at all) the scores on that paper. I think you know dd very well."

I hope that when we do testing it is a tester she has a good rapport with and that she cooperates. It will be very interesting to see WISC results I think.

Oh--and she is my 3rd, and I am tired! haha!

Cricket thank you so much--I wasn't having luck finding this discussion and thought I remembered it. At this point it wouldn't really serve a purpose, but I am tempted to put something together for the principal. I guess I will just wait for WISC results and then hopefully be able to say, "SEE! I TOLD YOU!"

I would have wanted to slap her. I suppose at least she is not doing medical testing with that attitude.

This is so sad. And could make a real difference in a child's opportunities. Honestly when I first saw dd's scores I thought it must be due to some kind of mistake like this.

The odds are probably low (esp. if you have a report from the CogAT company), but you never know. I'm also not sure if all the CogAT forms are bubbled/computer scored, or could some be hand-scored? Could it be that some kids don't bubble well enough for the scanner to pick it up? It wouldn't hurt to see if they still have the answer sheet. I was pretty sure DD's scores were at least somewhat close because she left so many blank (the report I had indicated the number of questions attempted and the number of correct answers)--and not finishing is something I can see her doing because she takes her jolly time with everything and it was timed. She finished the verbal section, and it's harder to get excessively involved with short verbal questions. They put her in the cluster based on the finished verbal section, and that was the goal at that point. I knew even if there was an error with her birthday it wasn't enough to make a difference for the magnet so she'd need to do another test anyway. It wouldn't hurt to ask--they may think you're nuts but at least it would put your mind at ease.

Personally I would have wanted to share with her an online tool to efficiently, accurately provide the student's age in years, months, days on the date of the test... because this is what would help the children, ongoing. Many may benefit. The gifted teacher may be suffering a bit of fixed mindset, and may benefit by knowing there is help available, both in the form of a technical tool... and also staff members watching out for each other, a safety net, a team to count on. Growth mindset can be both contagious and inspirational. Sometimes it does not matter who was right first... as much as it matters that we can help more people "get it" and be right: doing the right thing for the children.

Meanwhile, knowing errors may occur, parents may wish to calculate their child/ren's age in years, months, and days when their child is taking any screening assessment or test. This calculated age may be kept in the parent's file of advocacy records in the event it is ever needed.

Article about age-related errors in NYC testing for giftedness:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/education/new-error-found-in-test-scoring-for-gifted-programs.html
New Error Found in Scoring of Test for Gifted Programs
By AL BAKER
New York Times
May 10, 2013

Interesting! Thanks for sharing.

Wow - that is upsetting.