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DH went to Middle School information night last night. There are a couple points that the teachers brought up that made us wonder:

1. The 6th graders pretty much do things on their own, unlike 7th and 8th graders who are doing things together. The reason given was because "hormonally, they are in different place." For those with children at this age group, is this really the case? Does this affect gifties the same way?

2. The first 2 months in 6th grade will be team building, and teaching the 6th graders the 'intangibles' and there won't be much academic progress during that time. We understand that these intangible skills are important but does it really have to take away from the academic? For 2 months?

3. We're given the option of letting DS10 skip 6th grade. Given the above info (first 2 points), we're not sure what to make of it...

Anyone cares to advise? As always, your experience and insights are truly appreciated.

We just had middle school orientation, too, where we heard very similar things.

About #1: I've always figured the policy of keeping the 6th graders away from 7th and 8th graders had more to do with the parents than the kids. I think for a lot of us parents, middle school started in 7th, so it's hard for us to wrap our heads around the idea of our 5th graders heading off to middle school in three months. Keeping them separated keeps us from freaking out. It doesn't seem to me you can say definitively that there's more difference "hormonally" between a 6th and 7th grader than between a 7th and 8th grader.

About #2: Seems pretty fuzzy to me. Team building happens when there's something real--i.e., academic--to work on. I for one would have been bored out of my skull if I'd had to spend two months on "intangibles" in middle school (YMMV, of course).

Given #s 1 and 2: Grade skip must be looking pretty good right now...

I'll be curious to hear what you decide, and best of luck!

So, Dottie, are your kids in the same grade? How has that worked for you? Looking at my kids, I can see the potential of wanting to whole-grade accelerate my daughter who is one year behind my son. My son is much slower at things and socially less mature than my daughter, so I have a harder time imagining him skip a grade.

The first two months are always review, even in elementary level. By the end of the first week, after the assessments are done, our DS got really really bored So I agree, acceleration seems to be a better option. In this case, if he's accelerated, since they will be reviewing 6th grade material in the first 2 months, hopefully he won't get too bored

We spoke with our Principal and lent him our Iowa Acceleration Scale. It looks like the shadowing will happen very soon... We'll see what happens.

So there is no acceleration / differentiation even in math for your DD? Have you considered grade acceleration? Is the school open to the idea? I suppose this has to do with how some kids more worried about being socially acceptable than being smart. I wonder if it's more of a problem among girls than boys... We have 2 younger DDs so we'll start worrying very soon

At least they admit to it being 'what it is'...and gave you/your child an option.
I'd be considering that skip pretty seriously!

(and who makes these decisions about 'hormones', anyway???) weird stuff.

My 2 cents... I have one daughter who is finishing 8th grade & when she started middle school it was 6th-8th grade. She was not as prepared as I thought she would be for it. Academically, no real issues, but she was overwhelmed by some of the social issues. And she is/was in gifted (the 3 classes that are offered-history, language arts, science) & advanced classes. In 7th grade I had her placed in an 8th grade math class, but that was a teacher-related issue. She did fine. In fact, we have had more teacher-related problems than any others. Another post for another time...
Previous to middle school, she had been in a small gifted class of 7 kids for 2 years with the same 2 teachers. I think that may have played into some of her transition problems. She did adjust beautifully & has become an amazing leader of her class. She plays the clarinet in concert band, the alto sax in jazz band & has become a good artist; two skills/talents that were unknowns before middle school. This week she received an Outstanding Musician Award & today she is submitting her final project in Advanced Art on Louise Nevelson. She also designed a mural & led a team in painting it.
I suppose what I am trying to say (maybe not so well) is that even though she had an unexpectedly rough start, she has made it through middle school quite nicely & it looks to have been a good transition time to high school. We shall soon see...

In contrast, my other daughter is finishing 6th grade this year which has since been moved to the elementary school. She has enjoyed this year in some ways (her teachers adore her), but I tend to think the administration has not handled having these kids at the elementary level very well. They treat them like the rest of the children at the school which leaves them restless & quite honestly, feeling unappreciated. The 5th graders used to celebrate a sort of graduation at the end of the year. This class cannot wait to leave their school. It is really sad.
My 6th grader is not in gifted education*, but in the "top performers" group identified by state test scores (ugh). They have been pushed/pulled/dragged through this year because some of the kids refused to try. She has come home crying more than once as the teachers continually lecture them about how they should be doing better, blah, blah... They have told her that it isn't directed at her but it still has worn her down. I am so ready for this year to be over. Hopefully next year will be better with a middle school schedule.

*We are finding out that she is gifted, but also has a LD, just not sure what it is. I have been told by a specialist that she is dyslexic/dysgraphic, but of course FL does not recognize that as a specific disability.

Those diagnoses would fall under the category of "specific learning disability", and that is one of the categories that qualifies children for protection under the IDEA, if they require special education and related services. If she requires accommodations to access and benefit from the curriculum, that diagnosis would qualify her for protection under the ADA and section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. All of these are Federal law that states cannot opt out of.

Wright's Law

I often believe that middle school administrators underestimate the capability of this age group. Kids will achieve and behave the way they're expected to. Children at my son's elementary school switch classes for various reasons and it's not a big deal or is it a challenging exercise.

We are faced with a similar issue with our 11 year old. Our 5th grade son is skipping 6th and going to 7th grade this fall. Middle school here is only 7-8th. He's accelerating because they don't know what else to do with him academically. DS is in pre-algebra, and is finishing 8th grade spelling and vocabulary.

His last two teachers and principal all agree he needs to accelerate, yet the middle school principal is making him jump through many hoops in an effort to keep him out of the advanced language arts class, saying it just may be too much for him. Sigh.

I would consider the personality of your child in making your decision. My DD was very intimidated by the 7th/8th graders when she started school this year, and definitely appreciated the separation. At her school there seems to be a culture of "we had to be the bottom of the heap last year and you better bet we're going to make sure someone else is in that role this year!". Nothing drastic, but definitely the sixth graders are considered the babies of the school for a good chunk of the year. It took awhile for DD and other sixth graders to develop a "whatever" attitude and stop caring what the 7th and 8th graders acted like.

Just from looking at the way kids dress, there is a culture shift that happens over the course of the 6th year that would have been overwhelming at the beginning of the year. I like that she had time to adjust to that more slowly. As to whether the hormonal gap impacts gifties the same way....hard to say. In our case, I would say DD has been on the slow side with the hormonal shifts (also the young side, with a late summer birthday) but on the advanced side in her ability to notice and assess the way in which others act, form their groups, and treat other people. This has been a blessing and a curse. Her ability to see it for what it is makes it not at all appealing to her, so I guess it's good that she was largely among sixth graders where not everyone has crossed over. On the other hand, she is hyper aware of the unwritten rules and that she falls outside of what is considered "cool". If she were less aware she might try to fit in. As it is, I think that she is not, and probably never will be, able to act in a way that she finds at best, kind of silly, and at worst, mean and destructive.

OTH, DD was in a 7th grade math class, and while she felt a bit shy about it, no problems in the classroom at all.

She was bored to tears in her language arts until she was able to do something outside of the classroom, but has found social studies and science to be a good fit.

I guess the questions I would ask myself are:

How does your DS feel around older kids, and is he still on the naive side, or has he already begun to cross into the teen attitude?

How do you feel about him starting highschool earlier? This may depend on where you live and what kinds of issues kids are likely to be exposed to at his particular high school.

Do you think that there is little to be offered by the curriculum in all academic areas, or are there a couple of areas that you think would be appropriate? If so, can he subject accelerate in just the other areas?

Is it a now or never attitude with the school? Can he skip up mid-year or skip from 6th to 8th at the end of this year?

As with everything, there will be pros and cons to both.

Thanks, aculady. I just got the results of her formal psychological evaluation & will be calling the school tomorrow to set up a meeting as the doctor recommends a 504 plan. She is considered a gifted student with learning disabilities; specifically, a Reading Disorder (dyslexia) with particular impairment in reading speed as well as a Disorder of Written Expression with impairment in writing speed. I think I am going to post the results in the testing forum to get some feedback, as well.
link to results

From a teacher's perspective, I've taught in a middle school 6-8 that is a separate entity, as well as one that was on the same campus as the elementary and high school and one that was 5-8, (Yes, I move a lot ) - I understand what the admin is saying about keeping the 6th graders separate from the 7th and 8th graders, and yes, it is partly so the parents don't freak out, but it is also because the differences between 6th graders and 8th graders is enormous!
This tends to be more visibly noticeable with the girls, since there is a large physical development difference between a 6th grade girl and an 8th grade girl (and yes, it is hormonal - oh boy, is it ever... ).

Most 6th grade girls are still nice to each other, and themselves, however, somewhere between 7th and 8th grade many of them go through the start of puberty and turn into mean, pushy, overbearing girls who will want to be your best friend one minute and then go behind your back the next to stab you in the back because you either looked at a boy they liked, or you got to get the newest fashion they wanted, or simply because they can. Most of the time the girls do this without being able to control themselves - it is their hugely unstable hormones to blame here. But it can be a big shock for a 6th grader to have to deal with girls like this on a large scale. Often times the 8th graders make it a point to bully the 6th graders because they are so young, developmentally that they seem like babies to the "older and more mature 8th graders".

For the boys the differences aren't usually so great, but their slower rate of maturity gets more noticeable as they go through middle school. While most girls are ready to have boyfriends, many boys are still looking for friends to play cards or computer games with. The boys have their issues happen in 9th grade, more often than in middle school.

How this plays out for gifties is dependent on their own personality, just as it is with an ND child. All kids have to go through puberty at sometime and some handle it with more grace than others - I have one niece (PG) who when through with very few dramas and is now finishing her junior year in high school still a happy teen, her sister (M/HG) has had a horrible time going through middle school and now at the end of 9th grade is still having problems with issues related to going through puberty and trying to figure out who she is. The older one saw what other kids were doing and consciously chose to not get involved in it. The younger one saw what was happening and got involved in it to see what it was like (a way to fit in) and is still pretty unhappy about the path she picked.

Sorry for being so long winded. We were discussing a similar issue at work today in relation to 9th graders and their changes within a school year.

Thank you all so much for sharing your thoughts and experience. It was also nice to hear from the educator's perspective!

Since our DS10 has been going to 8th grade class, he's gotten some experience in dealing with older kids. They've been quite nice with him, and he's able to hold his own. There was no bullying whatsoever. Could it be because he's only there for an hour, and did not have to socialize with them during recess or P.E. (as he's surely the smallest one)?

On the other hand, he is on the naive side, even among his 5th grade friends. Of course, there are days when he starts showing some attitude!

We're also concerned with high school coming too soon. We haven't exactly been planning that far ahead!

He met with our Principal today to discuss the advantage / disadvantage of going to 6th or 7th grade. He told him that he was nervous about going to 7th grade. In fact, he told him that he did not want to skip! He will still go to a 6th grade class this Friday to shadow for a couple hours.

DH and I are not sure which way to go, either. Had the school not been willing to offer subjects acceleration or if the only way to get accommodation was by skipping, we would have jumped immediately! Fortunately, after a rough start, this year ends up to be a pretty good year. He got 2 subjects acceleration and was still able to stay with his friends. It was not exactly a perfect solution since sometimes there were scheduling conflicts which caused him to miss part of the science. Sometimes it also meant that he did not have as much time to finish his other 5th grade work.

Another concern we have about not skipping is because the 6th grade teachers had said that they would meet the kids at their level within 6th grade class. Even if a student is able to do algebra or geometry, he / she will get it in that class rather than going to 7th or 8th grade class. This is contrary to what our Principal had said, so we definitely will with him.

We will talk with our DS again after his shadowing on Friday. I'm sure we'll have a long discussion with our Principal and his 5th grade teacher. We will surely ask them about possibility of mid-year skip or even skipping 7th rather than 6th.

Dottie,

My DD5 and DD7 have plenty of drama at home (between them) and in their classroom (mostly the other kids, not them). Not looking forward to the teenage year! But then again, maybe they'll surprise us We can always hope ...

DS moved from Private to Public between 7th and 8th grade. At the time he was a single year accelerated, and has a summer birthday. We were so suprised that he had his best year ever socially, and it was 'pretty good' academically as well.

I asked him if the kids at school tended to be moody, and he made one of his best jokes ever:

"Moody? You bet! It's like they all have PMS every day of the month, and the girls are even worse!"

((wink))
Grinity

That sums it up perfectly! I will have to share that with my middle school colleagues tomorrow.

Pshaw,thanks!
DS wants to be a lawyer - all the best feedback he get from adults are about his ability to 'cut to the heart' of any matter.

Yesterday DS went to shadow. He actually got to visit all three 6th grade classes. When asked how it went, he said, "Great!" and went on that he wanted to go to one of the classes whose teacher offered a lot of flexibility and let students choose a project that they are most interested in. "So I don't have to do work that is boring me to death!"

Yesterday, his current teacher shared her own observation. She thinks that he would be better off not skipping. She believes that even in 6th grade, the school will accommodate to challenge him in his strong subjects (math and science). But most importantly, she observes that his current class has a lot more in common with him, in interest and they as a group are stronger academically). Socially, he is very comfortable with his current friends (of course!). She's afraid that he will lose the confidence if he skips and surrounded by new people. She taught the current 6th graders last year and so she knows these students really well.

Given this last information and knowing how reluctant he still is, maybe we really should just him stay in 6th grade, as long as he can continue to be accelerated in math and science? We'll meet with the Principal on Tuesday. If only there is a way to look into a crystal ball to see if this is the right decision... but I don't have one, and I only have this Board!

Hi Coco,
I�ve been lurking on this thread. I had the same decision to make last year. What to ask for and how much to ask for? I tend to agree with Dottie on the �good group.� My DS is just finishing 6th at the middle school. His grade is stacked. In kindergarten, it was clear this group had a lot of really bright kids. Approximately 30% of his grade scores in the 99%tile on the standard grade level testing. A good number of them are clearly gifted not just bright. I have always loved this for him. It keeps him humble. I think the impact has been very positive for him to be surrounded by other gifted kids. When he was very little I worried he would be the arrogant self- absorbed smart kid that couldn�t work with his peers. He has support and respect for and from his peers. He still is ahead of his peers academically, but he can have good conversations with them at the lunch table. He feels valued and respected by them. They tend to be amazingly supportive of one another�s achievements rather than petty and jealous. He works above grade level in all subjects. He is accelerated in Math and English. Math is 3 yrs. ahead and the teacher allows him to move at his own pace. The English/ Writing teacher has him working on 12th grade material. The Science teacher has had him test of out units all year and then gives him independent investigations. His Orchestra teacher will give promising students extra music to work on. He gets a lot of his academic needs met and has a decent group of peers.
If you can meet his needs and keep him with a strong peer group it will help so much when the hormones hit. My DS is turning 12 during 7th grade, and we live in a district where academic red-shirting is the norm. Many of his peers are turning 13 now or in the next few months. He is already 1+ years younger than most of his peers. He fits well, but does complain about being the smallest and the youngest. He has not been able to do all the activities at times because of his age. This year he won an essay contest held by a museum. The class was given a tour of the museum because he won. He was unable to go to all of the tour because the exhibits had age restrictions. He sometimes pays the price for his age. He wouldn�t want to be bored either but it certainly stinks for him at times. He logically understands that he is younger but still isn�t fun to be left out of activities.

It was the right decision for us. He is had his best year to date. Given the set up of our middle school, he is able to take many of his state required HS classes on site. He still has the grade level experiences with the academic challenges. His peers matter a lot right now and I�m grateful he has such a smart and driven group of peers.

Just my 2 cents, good luck I know it�s a tough choice.

Late to the party.....
St DS8's school 6-12th, the classes are gender separated in 7th and 8th. When they first did this there was an uproar, but grades and test scores have proven that it works.

The thinking is that the girls don't want to be too smart around the boys and tend to dumb down. The boys, hormones raging aren't capable of coherent thoughts with girls in the room....LOL!

They still meet up in the halls between classes and at lunch, so they do get some time together.

Jtooit and Dottie,

It's comforting to know that others have been there and understood our reluctance to decide one way or the other. Now that he has a 'good group' of kids that he's really comfortable with, he's really reluctant to let that go. He even made a comment about how he did not want to do anything academic this summer because he wanted to be dumber so that he would not have to leave his friends!

We are on board with him on this issue. Finding a good group is no easy task. Sometimes, it's by chance, too! Despite the best effort of teachers in getting a good group in each class, some kids just don't 'gel' together.

On the other hand, we felt that we needed to, at least, explore the possibility, considering that the school actually offered this option. We wanted to make sure that his academic needs would be met whether by acceleration in whatever forms. So we spoke to him and our younger ones about how when blessed with a gift, we have to make sure that we take good care of it and nurture it.

Jtooit, it's great that your DS has a great year, and that the school is very supportive! I'm just hoping that our DS will have a good year next year, too.

Tomorrow, he will get a chance to shadow in 7th grade class. We'll finalize our decision this Friday. Our wonderful Principal leaves the door open if we (or more like our DS) decide(s) that he wants to get accelerated later.

So essentially when they are grouped together, the score for both girls and boys are lower? Interesting ...

I've heard something similar in a presentation from a Catholic school that separates the children by gender starting in 3rd grade (I think ... it was many years ago). The idea is that that's about the age when they start noticing the other gender. They're trying to nip it in the bud before any issues arise, I suppose ...

We don't really see many issues between boys and gender. They were many problems in 4th grade among the girls, though, but it seems to have subsided now in 5th. Maybe it will this come back again in 7th grade?

I read in a Gifted Child Today book on Mathematics in one study that the gender separation really worked-- for the girls. The middle school girls in general asked many more questions about the topic before starting their work, and asked deeper and more abstract questions. The boys jumped right to the problems and would only ask questions if they were having trouble. The girls grades really catapulted upward, many many more A's. The boys grades in this study actually decreased...
Obviously there are many factors at work here... but interesting nonetheless.