Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment New to Board-Need Guidance in Scores/Advocacy

Hello all...

My son was recently re-tested at our request. He also has ADHD and Anxiety. I don't currently have raw scores but I do have everything else. When we met with the school psychologist to review the scores, she never used the word "gifted" or "twice-exceptional" and I think my child's scores are a clear indicator of those "terms". Part of the reason I don't think those terms were used is that I live in a state where gifted education is not mandated/not funded and generally "not recognized". : ( These scores are similar to scores he had when he was tested in first grade. My questions are this:

1) It appears with my research that scores on the new WISC-IV seem to be lower than they were on previous versions of the WISC-III. Is this your experience? My son's were actually higher on this test.

2) If you are in a state that does mandate gifted education or at least recognize it, what would these scores entitle your student to? Would they qualify for a gifted program?

3) I'll look in the twice exceptional category, but what is your experience with test scores? Do kids who have ADHD who test tend to have deflated test scores, even if medicated for the ADHD? Could I assume my son's scores are potentially even higher?

4) Does anyone have the WISC-IV scoring chart that will allow me to convert his scaled scores back to raw scores so I can get a GAI?

Thanks for any insight and/or help!!

Scores:

Verbal Comprehension: 112, 79% High Average
Perceptual Reasoning: 137, 99%, Very Superior
Working Memory: 123, 94%, Superior
Processing Speed: 121, 92%, Superior
Full Scale: 130, 98%, Very Superior

Thanks for the help. Here is the breakdown to see if it helps...

Verbal: 112

Similarities: 14
Vocabulary: 13
Comprehension: 10

Perceptual Reasoning: 137

Block Design: 18
Picture Concepts: 13
Matrix Reasoning: 17

Working Memory: 123

Digit Span: 15
Letter-Number Sequencing: 13

Processing Speed: 121

Coding: 15
Symbol Search 12

WIAT-III Scores were definetly lower and the school psychologist did not feel that they adequately showed his ability. She felt that the lack of services at school (school has been very resistant to give us anything to combat ADHD/Anxiety over the years because he is "bright" and "does well". School Psych said she would have expected to see with his WISC scores and him doing well in school WIAT scores much higher in some categories but specifically reading comprehension, sentence composition, numerical operations, and mathematics. She felt there was a significant statistical difference between RC, SC, and NO in particular. He fidgeted with items in the room, kept glancing around, rushed at times, skipping her full instructions, made careless errors in math, wrote at lightining speed a brief response (although accurate-short), read passages silently rather than aloud as recommended, etc. which affected scores as well.

Reading Comprehension: 106, 66%
Math Problem Solving: 122, 93%
Sentence Composition: 96, 39%
Word Reading: 121, 92%
Essay Composition: 115, 84%
Numerical Operations: 105, 63%
Essay Composition: 111, 77%
Sentence Building: 93, 32%
Sentence Combining: 101, 53%
Word Count: 104, 61%
Theme Development and Text Organization: 124, 95%
Mathematics: 115, 84%


Additional thoughts?

I, too, have heard that VCI correlates more with school success and high achievement than does PRI. My younger dd, who has twice been tested on the WISC-IV, had VCI scores at the 99th and 99.7th on the two testings but she, too, has ADD and anxiety and really isn't as high of a performer and her VCI scores would predict. Comprehension was also my dd's outlier of a lower score on the VCI index both times.

We've never medicated and we haven't retested since starting alternative treatments for ADD (and don't know if we ever will retest) so I can't speak to what the scores look like in a medicated child. I'm told that the wild fluctuations we've seen in our kiddo on achievement and ability tests are not uncommon in kids with ADD/ADHD, though.

Your ds' WIAT scores, save for the math problem solving, do look quite a bit lower than I'd expect given his IQ. In our state, the IQ scores would qualify for a GT id, but he'd need achievement scores in the 95th percentile (composite math, reading, or total) as well to get that id. Plus, in some of our districts the id alone doesn't qualify you for any services unless your school/group achievement tests are consistently in the 95th percentile or above.

He's 11. Consistently scores high on state assessment tests for his grade level and even with ADHD issues getting grades in high honor roll... I don't think scores are an accurate assessment. He is gifted with vocabulary-always had been able to hear a word in a sentence and be able to reproduce it in his own sentence a week later. If he hears a word he doesn't know, he HAS to be told what it is. He is insanely curious and has always loved workbooks, homeschooling pages, complex puzzles and games, and HAS to know how things work. He always watches shows like the science or history channels, knowledge shows, or shows about how things work (mythbusters/cash cab, how'd they make that, etc.

I think he was tested over 2 sessions but he also had the BASC and the Vanderbilt portions to do to assess anxiety/adhd self-reports. I know he did IQ first and then achievement. From what little research I've been able to find, the discrepancy of scores seems quite typical with twice exceptional kids...

My younger one did multiple IQ, achievement, and personality/behavior measures all in one day as well (her 2nd testing). In hind sight, I think we messed up with a lot how the second testing was done and who did it. The only real benefit we got out of all of the $ we spent on it was the WIAT scores which were used for her GT id since her school achievement test scores are so erratic.

Given what you are saying about your ds' school achievement scores, I'd think that he'd qualify for a GT id with those combined with the FSIQ from this testing. Has the school given you any idea if they are going to do anything for him?

Since our state doesn't have any gifted programming or mandates, it is very challenging. To top it off, we've been fighting for years for a 504 plan to provide accomodations and support his anxiety/adhd and always been denied-despite the fact that he is clearly eligible-because he is "bright" and functioning "good enough" in their opinion. Drives us crazy...

These new tests results will allow our DS to finally qualify for an IEP or a 504 but given the high IQ scores, it's thrown a whole other dimension in what we want to pursue. We are of the opinion that the mildly oppositional comments that some teachers are making are a direct relation to his inquisitivenss and "need to know". He doesn't satisfy easily and is intense. Some teachers who aren't used to that have felt it was more of a behavioral issue this year and are not at all mentioning his intelligence and it's role. This gives us some credence... In my research, there is a lot of support to show that ADHD and Giftedness appear very similar and that students who are twice exceptional have significantly more pronounced "ADHD" symptoms and more difficulty in school emotionally and socially. He commented on his BASC that he feels "different" and that his "teachers don't understand him". It is obvious he is DIFFERENT and that the TEACHERS DON"T UNDERSTAND HIM. We just need to develop a plan that will meet his emotional and educational needs and where his IQ and brightness will be seen as a gift to nurtue and not as something to "control".

Any thoughts are appreciated!!!
This board is a lifesaver. This isn't easy to talk about with friends or family-who have always known he was bright, particularily when many of them have kids who have learning issues. They have a hard time seeing how challenging it is to parent and educate a child who is twice exceptional.

I guess I just need to know what to fight for in a plan so I can prepare!

My son did tell me when I asked a few questions about the 2nd test that it was "more boring" and that "most of it I already knew" but "some of it was hard". He said that it wasn't "as much fun" and he liked the hands-on testing the day before much more. He says in class that 70-80% of the time he "already knows what they are discussing" and "zones out". He admitted that he probably could have done better by "slowing down", "rechecking work" and "paying attention".

Bump...

Thanks Dottie. We did hear from the psychologist that if his intelligence were exacerbating the ADHD and Anxiety symptoms, which we believe it is and that research supports, that we could push for classroom modifications in the course of the 504 or IEP to discourage behavioral issues and increase concentration (ie: adjustments to curriculum to keep him engaged).

We've had very little luck working individually with teachers. They always reference after school clubs as "enrichment" and do not seem to recognize that curriculum needs to be enriched. Or, they add extra workbook pages when my kids are bored and think that is sufficient. : )

In GT friendly states, what would GT kids of his IQ receive in pull out services? Just curious... Would anything change in the classroom? While I think he would do very well given his natural abilities, grade skipping is not something we are going to pursue given his emotional "youngness" related to the ADHD/Anxiety. Nor, do I think it is necessary in his case...

Lastly, is their any articles or books that any one would recommend to assist us is helping teachers recognize what a gifted child looks like in the classroom and/or needs?

Thanks!!

I think that the approach that the psychologist suggested is the appropriate one: tie your requests for modifications and accommodations directly to his diagnoses.

You could suggest something like for a 504:

Because student frequently becomes anxious when work is significantly below his intellectual level*, and this anxiety interferes with his ability to meaningfully access or benefit from instruction, teachers should give student work commensurate with his intellectual ability in order to reduce his classroom anxiety and allow him to focus on the material being taught, enabling him to derive educational benefit from the educational experiences being offered. "Commensurate with student's intellectual ability" is defined as being at a level consistent with student's performance on (testing instrument you want them to use).

Because student finds it difficult to sustain attention on work where he has already mastered most of the content,and this interferes with his ability to access the curriculum, student should be allowed to pre-test out of topics where he is already at 80% mastery and advance to areas where he is learning predominantly new material in order increase his ability to sustain attention and benefit from instruction.

Set up a similar cause-and-effect statement for every accommodation and modification that you are requesting, including extra time, quiet testing conditions, etc. Include defining measurements or criteria wherever feasible, so that the school can't claim they are accommodating him (for example, by giving him more of the same, instead of advanced work) when they really aren't.


* If the school wants something to back up the nexus between the disability and the accommodation being requested, you could include something in this instance like "often believing that he must misunderstand what is being asked of him, or believing that his teachers perceive him as being less capable than he is," in this. Ask your psychologist for further suggestions.