Hello all...

My son was recently re-tested at our request. He also has ADHD and Anxiety. I don't currently have raw scores but I do have everything else. When we met with the school psychologist to review the scores, she never used the word "gifted" or "twice-exceptional" and I think my child's scores are a clear indicator of those "terms". Part of the reason I don't think those terms were used is that I live in a state where gifted education is not mandated/not funded and generally "not recognized". : ( These scores are similar to scores he had when he was tested in first grade. My questions are this:

1) It appears with my research that scores on the new WISC-IV seem to be lower than they were on previous versions of the WISC-III. Is this your experience? My son's were actually higher on this test.

2) If you are in a state that does mandate gifted education or at least recognize it, what would these scores entitle your student to? Would they qualify for a gifted program?

3) I'll look in the twice exceptional category, but what is your experience with test scores? Do kids who have ADHD who test tend to have deflated test scores, even if medicated for the ADHD? Could I assume my son's scores are potentially even higher?

4) Does anyone have the WISC-IV scoring chart that will allow me to convert his scaled scores back to raw scores so I can get a GAI?

Thanks for any insight and/or help!!

Scores:

Verbal Comprehension: 112, 79% High Average
Perceptual Reasoning: 137, 99%, Very Superior
Working Memory: 123, 94%, Superior
Processing Speed: 121, 92%, Superior
Full Scale: 130, 98%, Very Superior

Thanks for the help. Here is the breakdown to see if it helps...

Verbal: 112

Similarities: 14
Vocabulary: 13
Comprehension: 10

Perceptual Reasoning: 137

Block Design: 18
Picture Concepts: 13
Matrix Reasoning: 17

Working Memory: 123

Digit Span: 15
Letter-Number Sequencing: 13

Processing Speed: 121

Coding: 15
Symbol Search 12

WIAT-III Scores were definetly lower and the school psychologist did not feel that they adequately showed his ability. She felt that the lack of services at school (school has been very resistant to give us anything to combat ADHD/Anxiety over the years because he is "bright" and "does well". School Psych said she would have expected to see with his WISC scores and him doing well in school WIAT scores much higher in some categories but specifically reading comprehension, sentence composition, numerical operations, and mathematics. She felt there was a significant statistical difference between RC, SC, and NO in particular. He fidgeted with items in the room, kept glancing around, rushed at times, skipping her full instructions, made careless errors in math, wrote at lightining speed a brief response (although accurate-short), read passages silently rather than aloud as recommended, etc. which affected scores as well.

Reading Comprehension: 106, 66%
Math Problem Solving: 122, 93%
Sentence Composition: 96, 39%
Word Reading: 121, 92%
Essay Composition: 115, 84%
Numerical Operations: 105, 63%
Essay Composition: 111, 77%
Sentence Building: 93, 32%
Sentence Combining: 101, 53%
Word Count: 104, 61%
Theme Development and Text Organization: 124, 95%
Mathematics: 115, 84%


Additional thoughts?

I, too, have heard that VCI correlates more with school success and high achievement than does PRI. My younger dd, who has twice been tested on the WISC-IV, had VCI scores at the 99th and 99.7th on the two testings but she, too, has ADD and anxiety and really isn't as high of a performer and her VCI scores would predict. Comprehension was also my dd's outlier of a lower score on the VCI index both times.

We've never medicated and we haven't retested since starting alternative treatments for ADD (and don't know if we ever will retest) so I can't speak to what the scores look like in a medicated child. I'm told that the wild fluctuations we've seen in our kiddo on achievement and ability tests are not uncommon in kids with ADD/ADHD, though.

Your ds' WIAT scores, save for the math problem solving, do look quite a bit lower than I'd expect given his IQ. In our state, the IQ scores would qualify for a GT id, but he'd need achievement scores in the 95th percentile (composite math, reading, or total) as well to get that id. Plus, in some of our districts the id alone doesn't qualify you for any services unless your school/group achievement tests are consistently in the 95th percentile or above.

He's 11. Consistently scores high on state assessment tests for his grade level and even with ADHD issues getting grades in high honor roll... I don't think scores are an accurate assessment. He is gifted with vocabulary-always had been able to hear a word in a sentence and be able to reproduce it in his own sentence a week later. If he hears a word he doesn't know, he HAS to be told what it is. He is insanely curious and has always loved workbooks, homeschooling pages, complex puzzles and games, and HAS to know how things work. He always watches shows like the science or history channels, knowledge shows, or shows about how things work (mythbusters/cash cab, how'd they make that, etc.

I think he was tested over 2 sessions but he also had the BASC and the Vanderbilt portions to do to assess anxiety/adhd self-reports. I know he did IQ first and then achievement. From what little research I've been able to find, the discrepancy of scores seems quite typical with twice exceptional kids...

My younger one did multiple IQ, achievement, and personality/behavior measures all in one day as well (her 2nd testing). In hind sight, I think we messed up with a lot how the second testing was done and who did it. The only real benefit we got out of all of the $ we spent on it was the WIAT scores which were used for her GT id since her school achievement test scores are so erratic.

Given what you are saying about your ds' school achievement scores, I'd think that he'd qualify for a GT id with those combined with the FSIQ from this testing. Has the school given you any idea if they are going to do anything for him?

Since our state doesn't have any gifted programming or mandates, it is very challenging. To top it off, we've been fighting for years for a 504 plan to provide accomodations and support his anxiety/adhd and always been denied-despite the fact that he is clearly eligible-because he is "bright" and functioning "good enough" in their opinion. Drives us crazy...

These new tests results will allow our DS to finally qualify for an IEP or a 504 but given the high IQ scores, it's thrown a whole other dimension in what we want to pursue. We are of the opinion that the mildly oppositional comments that some teachers are making are a direct relation to his inquisitivenss and "need to know". He doesn't satisfy easily and is intense. Some teachers who aren't used to that have felt it was more of a behavioral issue this year and are not at all mentioning his intelligence and it's role. This gives us some credence... In my research, there is a lot of support to show that ADHD and Giftedness appear very similar and that students who are twice exceptional have significantly more pronounced "ADHD" symptoms and more difficulty in school emotionally and socially. He commented on his BASC that he feels "different" and that his "teachers don't understand him". It is obvious he is DIFFERENT and that the TEACHERS DON"T UNDERSTAND HIM. We just need to develop a plan that will meet his emotional and educational needs and where his IQ and brightness will be seen as a gift to nurtue and not as something to "control".

Any thoughts are appreciated!!!
This board is a lifesaver. This isn't easy to talk about with friends or family-who have always known he was bright, particularily when many of them have kids who have learning issues. They have a hard time seeing how challenging it is to parent and educate a child who is twice exceptional.

I guess I just need to know what to fight for in a plan so I can prepare!

My son did tell me when I asked a few questions about the 2nd test that it was "more boring" and that "most of it I already knew" but "some of it was hard". He said that it wasn't "as much fun" and he liked the hands-on testing the day before much more. He says in class that 70-80% of the time he "already knows what they are discussing" and "zones out". He admitted that he probably could have done better by "slowing down", "rechecking work" and "paying attention".

Bump...

Thanks Dottie. We did hear from the psychologist that if his intelligence were exacerbating the ADHD and Anxiety symptoms, which we believe it is and that research supports, that we could push for classroom modifications in the course of the 504 or IEP to discourage behavioral issues and increase concentration (ie: adjustments to curriculum to keep him engaged).

We've had very little luck working individually with teachers. They always reference after school clubs as "enrichment" and do not seem to recognize that curriculum needs to be enriched. Or, they add extra workbook pages when my kids are bored and think that is sufficient. : )

In GT friendly states, what would GT kids of his IQ receive in pull out services? Just curious... Would anything change in the classroom? While I think he would do very well given his natural abilities, grade skipping is not something we are going to pursue given his emotional "youngness" related to the ADHD/Anxiety. Nor, do I think it is necessary in his case...

Lastly, is their any articles or books that any one would recommend to assist us is helping teachers recognize what a gifted child looks like in the classroom and/or needs?

Thanks!!

I think that the approach that the psychologist suggested is the appropriate one: tie your requests for modifications and accommodations directly to his diagnoses.

You could suggest something like for a 504:

Because student frequently becomes anxious when work is significantly below his intellectual level*, and this anxiety interferes with his ability to meaningfully access or benefit from instruction, teachers should give student work commensurate with his intellectual ability in order to reduce his classroom anxiety and allow him to focus on the material being taught, enabling him to derive educational benefit from the educational experiences being offered. "Commensurate with student's intellectual ability" is defined as being at a level consistent with student's performance on (testing instrument you want them to use).

Because student finds it difficult to sustain attention on work where he has already mastered most of the content,and this interferes with his ability to access the curriculum, student should be allowed to pre-test out of topics where he is already at 80% mastery and advance to areas where he is learning predominantly new material in order increase his ability to sustain attention and benefit from instruction.

Set up a similar cause-and-effect statement for every accommodation and modification that you are requesting, including extra time, quiet testing conditions, etc. Include defining measurements or criteria wherever feasible, so that the school can't claim they are accommodating him (for example, by giving him more of the same, instead of advanced work) when they really aren't.


* If the school wants something to back up the nexus between the disability and the accommodation being requested, you could include something in this instance like "often believing that he must misunderstand what is being asked of him, or believing that his teachers perceive him as being less capable than he is," in this. Ask your psychologist for further suggestions.

Thank you all! Good suggestions Aculady and thanks for the info Dottie. I'll gather data here and present it in our 504/iep accomodations list. School psychologist said he'd support either document and asked us to produce a list of what we wanted him to have as accomodations/modifications. No guarentees if they will give them to us but I at least want to go in with suggestions since they've been less than helpful in the past and since they don't usually provide anything for GT kids. Most members won't have the knowledge or experience to even know what to offer just because it isn't taught in our state schools because services are mandated. They just pretend these kids don't exist. How sad for them...

In our state, a child with those scores would qualify for a GT id, but that doesn't necessarily qualify him for any services. How's that for useful ?

Our oldest skipped a grade but we, too, don't think that would be a good choice for our younger dd with ADD. Her district states very clearly that placement in GT or accelerated classes requires motivation, attention skills, and high achievement, so a GT id doesn't mean that you'll be in GT classes. We could push more for a 504, which may be the best route in your instance. We have a psychologist's letter with an ADD dx and an anxiety disorder dx that states the school should give her a 504. The school said no initially and we didn't push b/c we didn't know what to ask for at the time.

We, instead, implemented our own interventions that didn't require a lot of cooperation from the school except to overlook her chewing gum and drinking caffeinated tea in class, which they have. If they do not overlook those things in middle school next year, we'll revisit having them written into a 504. The fact that her grades went up dramatically and her math/reading teacher noticed enough of a change to send me an e-mail asking what I'd done to her should help in proving that she does better with those things.

In terms of pull-out, if one manages to get a 2e kid into those pull-outs (which we have with significant advocacy), what it looks like varies tremendously from school to school. In our neighborhood school, dd12 rec'd a once/week language arts enrichment pull-out and would have gotten the same for math in later grades (she was there in 2nd and earlier). So, it would amount to about two hours/week of math and/or reading pull-out. They worked on things like math detective workbooks, etc. In middle school, she goes to accelerated literacy and math classes everyday but these classes are "backfilled" as the GT teacher calls it so the level of instruction isn't always super high. Some of the teachers have done a good job differentiating for the variety of kids in their classes, others have not.

Dd10 is choiced to a higher achieving school with more GT options than our neighborhood school. She goes to the GT teacher's class for about 45 mins/day for reading in replacement of the regular 5th grade reading class. She does the rest of the language arts block in the regular classroom (spelling & writing). With some serious advocacy on my behalf, she is also taking her math class daily with the GT teacher. That amounts to another approx. 45 mins/day in replacement of the regular classroom math. That class is using the 6th grade curriculum instead of the 5th grade curriculum. This school has the most available for GT pull-outs of any elementary I know in our area plus the GT teacher is really bright herself.

Dottie: Can you expand on this? Are you saying that if the comprehension alone were inaccurate for whatever reason (anxiety, ADHD symptoms, whatever) that it could significantly up his VCI and that without the 13 in the PRI, it would be a much higher IQ score, or something else? Basically, that given the scatter, the scores may not be accurate? Obviously the tests are just a clue but I'm trying to gather as much data as possible. What would age play into this as well?

I did see that research supports using FSIQ, GAI, VCI, or PRI index in determining "giftedness" programming eligibility and that the more of the sections that a student scored in the gifted range in, the likely higher their overall IQ...meaning that my DS would "qualify" with that criteria with his PRI, FSIQ, GAI (if you ignore that "129" is not "130", or 3 out of the 4 of the typical areas. I do not think his IQ results are anything behond gifted....just trying to get a handle on terms, scores, etc. before our meeting.

Squeaks,
It sounds like you've been doing battle for a long long time, and I remember my own days of this and wanted to send lots of love your way.

Have you read 'Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of the Gifted Child?' If not, I recommend you get ahold of it and read it.

When I look at the Achievement Scores and the IQ scores together, and hear you talking about 'how can I get the school to treat my child right?' - together I get a deep sense of fear.

Clearly something is very wrong at this school for this child. Of course it ought to be true that your child deserves an adequate public education. You might truly have no other options, in which case I would say - keep going!

But if there are other options, homeschooling or private schools that are either affordable, or would give need-based scholarships, or even charter or alternative schools, I would strongly urge you to look into them.

Of course it's the height to rudeness to look at a child's scores and read 2 paragraphs about the family and suggest a diagnosis over the Internet - so I'm certainly not going to do that. But I am curious if Aspergers Diagnosis is on the table? When you read books and articles about Gifted kids who also have Aspergers or Autistic Spectrum issues, do you recognize your child?

I'm asking because the subtest Comprehension and Picture Concepts are often lowered by those issues. And because I've heard that all kids with AS have ADHD and Anxiety as natural outgrowths of trying to navigate life.

Hoagie's page has a lot of links for Twice Exceptional resouces at
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/aspergers.htm

I also know some families who accept the AS diagnosis to get services from the school even though their child doesn't really fit the picture, and where that's been helpful.

I'm wracking my brain to imagine what, exactly your school could provide that might make it a better learning environment for your son. Besides hand picking the teachers for having a strong desire to bring out the best in every student, I can't really imagine it. Would more advanced classes do the trick? Perhaps, but perhaps not. I guess a lot rides on if those Achievement scores reflect what he actually has learned, or if they are an artifact of his lack of focus.

Which brings me back to the issue of medication and other ADHD interventions. If I were in your shoes, my brain would be a swirl of questions about should I medicate for the anxiety? For the ADHD? If I am medicating, is it working? What kinds of interventions am I doing besides medication, and are they working? Some have found that by posting details about the questions that make our brains swirl, that we can get more peace and perspective through the process. If this is true for you, then I encourage you to post in more detail.

I do think that giftedness has something to do with this - and at earlier ages my PG/ADD/Anxiety son shared this behavior with your son, but I wouldn't encourage you to frame this as a Gifted Issue. I would either move the child to a school where this sort of behavior is encouraged, or work hard to modify the child's behavior - medication if needed, or behavioral interventions to decrease the anxiety or increase the social sensitivity. To say "oh he's gifted" doesn't leave you any way to change things. And , while I agree that you son is gifted, based on the scores posted, he is likely to be in the 'more rather usual' range of giftedness that schools would be likely to be rather more comfortable with if it weren't for the anxiety and ADHD driven behaviors.

A very good book about working with your child that you might have luck sharing with teachers is -
Notching Up the Nurtured Heart Approach - The New Inner Wealth Initiative for Educators - Perfect Paperback (Jan. 23, 2011) by Howard Glasser with Melissa Block, Chris Howell and Richard Diffenderfer

This 'nurtured heart approach' is the only thing that really helped my son get mastery over his 'emotional immaturity.'

Peace Hands Bow,
Grinity

Love your signature Grinity, lol!

Thank you for all of your comments and suggestions. I'm a clinical psych masters so am comfortable saying that he doesn't exhibit signs at all of Asperger's. He also has been followed by a developmental behavioralist team since he was 4 for the ADHD and Anxiety. We are medicating for both and after years of trials have settled on a great combination. The specialist and us both feel that we are treating as much as psychotropically possible for the Anxiety/Adhd symptoms. There are, in our opinion and expertise, no other options regarding dosage or medication at this time.

We have been battling since he was in pre-school for appropriate education. We live in a small community and there are no private or charter options within even a reasonable drive or we would have considered it. It was what the specialist first suggested with our son just given his combination of brightness/adhd issues at age 5....but not an option for us. We are in the unique position that we have the option of 3 local schools so we are currently investigating all of our options to see which would best meet his need and will contemplate switching if one has a better program. Being all public schools, however, and with no state programs, our schools offer NOTHING to GT kids. No pull out and no enrichment without a battle, and even then teachers don't know what true enrichment is (not giving more!). There is literally no training in our state for GT populations! In later middle school, he can be promoted into honors or accelerated math and science, which may help.

I don't know exactly what the achievement scores show but we aren't hearing from any teachers (ever) that he is an average kid and we have never seen difficulty of him with any school tasks, outside of organization. For example, he doesn't enjoy writing-hence the low WIAT score-BUT he writes wonderfully and quickly. He'll moan an hour about writing an essay but them write one that is full of rich vocab, correct puncutation, and very creative. Same with Math...Doesn't want to do it but does his homework (3-4 pages) in the ride home from school, and they are messy but correct. He also shows no work for math, which drives the teachers crazy, except his answers are right. In Science, he knows in his estimate 75% of what is already taught if not more.

Challenging to make a plan for him because of the twice exceptional piece...personally I don't think that achievement scores are an accurate reflection of his true ability, and nor does his psychologist who tested him. I think he was bored, didn't enjoy the more traditional paper/pencils tasks, was on day 2 of testing and missing class and rushed. As is typical....
Seems fairly typical of his profiled kids as well...

I feel strongly that he can be managed in a traditional setting if we can get accomodations/support that will make him feel beter about his program. I should add that he is an A student who doesn't have to work hard at anything given to him so far. His issues are more with organization, avoidance of easy work (subtle), talking in class, not focusing (25-50% of the time in class he is off task routinely yet still manages to make high honor roll), social struggles, and self-esteem issues. He tells us he is bored and "entertains" himself by drawing, reading, talking. Crazy kid.

We enrich significantly outside of school as he honestly demands it. He begged for music lessons at age 4 and is currently taking 2 different lessons. He is on 2 travel teams. He plays chess locally. He goes to camps. He has books, experiments, art supplies, logic games and activities, electronic kits, legos advanced galore, etc. He NEEDS stimulation and doesn't get it at school so we try to engage him outside of it. Whereever he is, he'll learn because he enjoys it! I guess I just want to do right for my child.... when he told me that he feels misunderstood and that teachers don't like him, I was sad. This child is well liked by adults outside of school, is incredibly compassionate, raises money on his own for local animal shelters and has huge empathy for pets, young kids, and those affected by difficulties (fires, tsnamis, etc.). I don't want his questioning personality to be considered aversive in school when outside of school we all recognize the humor, the curiousity in the incesstant questioning, and not the lack of respect in his tone, but the intensity of his "need to know" and "need to question".

He has SO much to give! I'm gonna pick up those books...

Thanks Dottie as well for the information. I am still struggling to get a handle on the discrepancy so any information helps...

As I said, these boards are a life saver because these aren't easy conversations to have with other parents!

Squeaks,
Your DS11 sounds like a lovely person. Thanks for sharing him with us. I'm very glad to hear that you have a good support team and that the meds are doing the best that can be expected.

Good luck with the books.

I'm glad to hear that the achievement scores don't reflect his daily performance in school.

Is homeschooling an option?
My fear is that what he is learning in school:
1) Life is boring
2) I'm a bother
3) Practicing my 'tune it out' skills
4) I can get As with no effort
is worse than what he would learn from sitting at home all day watching TV and playing computer games.

I don't think that you can ask the teachers to 'change who they are' or how they do their job, or even what they see their job as being, but I do think that you can change their perspective on your son with the info in the 'Transforming' books.

Please keep us posted and let us know how it's going. It's good to have a place to brag about your sweetie!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

That's interesting. What does one do in terms of scores when you hit that scatter criteria? Both of my kids would be there for VCI and/or PRI. Does it just make one more cautious in interpreting the results or do you actually figure some alternative # similar to using a GAI over FSIQ for kids with scatter between indices?

I have followed this conversation but am not completely clear on what to "take away" from the discussion of scatter.

My dd has 6 points of scatter in her PRI and 7 in her processing. so that's about 2 standard deviations for each?

Are the sub-tests in each section measuring very different things, or very similar things? Or different things that typically vary together.

Do we conclude that because of this scatter, we should have a little less confidence in the "rightness" of her iq score?

I see several posters mentioning 2e and scatter. What is that relationship?

(Sorry for the rapid fire questions. I think my intensity is showing.... )

I'd be interested to hear Aimee's take on this, too. My son had 7 points of scatter in his VCI on the WISC-IV.

DS14 has 11 points of scatter between his highest and lowed subtest scores. That's just shy of 4 Standard Deviation - yeah!

Yes my son is 2E! Yes it does seem that time and effort together have made a huge difference.
((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

My older dd, who I don't believe is 2e, had an 11 pt scatter w/in PRI and a 7 point scatter w/in VCI. In her case, I'd attribute a lot of it to meticulous tendencies and significant anxiety having come off a really bad school year in which the teacher spent a lot of time yelling at her.

My youngest, who is 2e, had a 4 pt spread w/in PRI and 7 and 3 point spread in VCI (two different testings).

Anxiety counts as an 'e' - but I hope this was temporary! Teachers can be such a precious gift, or just the opposite.
Grinity

Yeah, she's good now -- very centered and confident. We've just never retested IQ. Curiosity doesn't seem like a good enough reason and she's gotten what she needs school wise b/c she's such a high achiever and her overall IQ score was high enough (and included some really high subtest scores like 19+) that the rarity of them seems to have struck the people who mattered in placement decisions.

She still harbors bad feelings toward her 1st grade teacher, though . We homeschooled the end of that year it was such a mess.

My son had a 50 point spread between all of his scores and the processing/speed score. He was tested when he was 6. Later, we found out that he is hearing impaired! We didn't know. Now he has a hearing aid and an FM system and is doing great.
We never retested so I have no idea if that got better. I think the brain is plastic and I believe/hope that his brain will rewire itself, if not normally, at least better.

I, at least, am talking about scaled scores: the ones that range from 1-19. My dds both had index scores for the complete indices that ranged about 40 points. Within indices, the scaled scores ranged from 8s to 19s (25th percentile to 99.9th) for my eldest and actually even more if we take into account extending the 19 with extended norms.

With the research I've done on 2E kids, you are looking for scatter to help "confirm" in a psychologist's friend's opinion of what you "already know". For example, with my kiddo: He's a very bright boy who has ADHD and Anxiety. : )

He also said another way of looking at it with the old CSE model is that it IS evidence of what amounts to a learning disability if you are looking at a significant discrepancy between a WISC and a WIAT, as in my kid's case. However, it means little unless your 2E kid isn't being successful academically. In our case, our DS is still doing well in school so it doesn't help our "case".

I don't think you doubt the IQ score but there was a lot of evidence I found that in particular 2e populations, scatter is much more common, particular when it is large scatter. It did indicate that if you have what you believe to be a 2e child with scatter that you should not necessarily disqualify them from a GT program based on only a FS and that it will be especially important to consider ALL of the indices on their own.

I was talking about percentiles. His processing speed scaled score was like 9 on those subtests and then some of the other scaled scores were 18. We are probably saying the same thing!
Gee, his percentile rank on the WISC coding seciton was 37% and on the similarities was 99.6%.

I am itching to receive DD1s subtest scores. After getting DD2 tested I asked the psych if she could provide DD1s subtest scores too and she's agreed to dig them out of the archives for me some time in the next few weeks. As it stands we know that DD1 had 43 points between her VCI and WMI, I am incredibly curious to know though what the scatter was inside each index.