Originally Posted by Val
[quote=MonetFan]...For them, college is about certification and status. These attitudes, plus the push for everyone to go to college, are important factors in the packing of AP and honors classes with kids who aren't prepared for the material, and for the rush to get kids into algebra and geometry classes at earlier ages.

There are two bad outcomes:

1. These classes are getting packed with kids who are there for reasons very different from wanting to learn. This creates problems for the ones who are there to learn. I think of the first group as as the "Is this going to be on the test?" crowd.

2. Kids who really aren't ready for these classes are being forced into them by tiger parents, tiger schools, or other reasons. The result is that they end up spending hours every night on homework so that, as a few have noted on this thread, they can look HG+ on paper. It's destructive and a form of child abuse IMO.

I see your points about different motivations among different people and that IQ isn't everything. I agree that there's a lot more to talent than IQ. But at the same time, it's still a big deal.

Yes yes yes.
Part of the problem is that the classes were created to raise the ceiling for kids who were unusually able, unusually hardworking, and/or unusually interested in the topic (with a minimum competence, of course). For kids in any of these three categories, honors/AP/whatever advanced classes can be a great experience of growth. It's not just a matter of IQ. They are there by choice.

When the class appears on transcripts and becomes important, though, the kids don't feel like they have a choice. Sometimes parents tell them to take it, sometimes they feel the anonymous pressure from some college admissions official, but for them the class stops being about curiosity and exploration and pushing limits and becomes a way to make the grade. Any class that involves group discussion, and any class where the teacher adapts content and lectures to the level of the class, is going to be immediately affected by the presence of a lot of kids who don't really want to be there. When the parents feel pressure from admissions people to make sure their kids get high grades in these classes, they end up putting pressure on the district to lower the expectations in the class so everyone who can make use of the result - the transcript notation - can get it. The end result is that even the syllabus gets diluted down as far as possible, and discussions... go away.

In our district this is followed by another round of even higher level classes to accommodate the kids the original Honors classes were designed for. Unfortunately, this transcript gets noticed too, and before you know it parents are asking for their kids to get A's in THAT class too. It seems to be never-ending.

The only solution I can think of is to remove any transcript notation of which class the student actually took. If there is no shiny prize, than anyone motivated only by shiny prizes will probably leave.