I was just reminded of this question I had a while back, so I thought why not ask the experts?

When my son was being evaluated last year for the ps gt program, the gt teacher mentioned that spelling well was not considered much of an indicator of giftedness. I was surprised, I figured ok, there must be some reason for discounting this, but it still seems like it would be an indicator of good memory, potential for achievement and possibly related to reading ability.

I figured not spelling well could not be considered a reason to rule out giftedness, but not the other way around.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? It did not impact his results, but I am curious!

Yes, it seems like the context matters here.

I'd be willing to bet that the kids who go to Washington D.C. for the National Spelling Bee are probably ALL GT! But is the kid who gets "there" and "their" straight necessarily GT? I'd say no more likely than the kid who can't get them straight.

I am wondering if it is an age thing, like reading early is considered G but reading in general is not an indicator. Spelling early is probably an indicator but spelling in general, not.

ren

Maybe it's a learning style thing as well. I think strong visual-spatial learners probably don't spell as well. Alone, I don't think good spelling probably means a whole lot unless you are talking pre-K! Combined with other strengths, it can.

National spelling bee kids are just at a whole other level. I'd be willing to bet most of those kids have a lot more information than just spelling words!

I was thinking about this the other day actually. You know that article that circulates around that talks about how people only look at the first letter and last letter to read words? I was wondering if kids who pick up reading quickly and start reading with the more mature pattern of only seeing the first and last letter become worse spellers due to less time spent noticing letter combinations. DS6 was a really good speller for a while, he could spell words that really surprised me at 4yo. But, at 6 his spelling is becoming poor, words he used to spell without thinking he now is asking about. I think it's because he no longer thinks about what letters make what words, it's completely automatic when he reads (he was able to read that article, which I thought was pretty cool, though he didn't notice right away that the letters were mixed up).

Anyways, just my completely unresearched theory.

That is a great insight mamandmore! And it explains so much. DS8 could spell wonderfully at a younger age as well. And he still does extremely well on spelling tests, when he takes his time and is careful. But in his writing....

I always assumed that his brain was just going faster than his hand. But your explanation makes more sense. Has anyone else's kid taught themselves to speed read? DS's teacher last year actually timed him, by making him read out loud. (he reads even faster silently.) I think he reads so fast by not really looking at the letter combinations inside the words anymore?

funny, I almost showed that little article thing to my DS4 to see if he could do it. I am pretty sure he could...but in the end decided to show it to DH instead (who was thankfully able to read it easily). Interesting about spelling changing. My DS4 can spell great, but lately he has been asking how to spell things that he knows, then I will say "what do you think?" and then he will spell it right. Not sure why he started second guessing himself. He is even good about always remembering silent letters and all sorts of stuff in words I would have know idea he would know.

I guess that spelling is just too unstable a skill to use as a good indicator. Interesting.
I have noticed once or twice that I see words as pictures built with letters - not just reading first and last letter, and I dont mean picture in my head..I mean the letters together make an easily recognizable shape and if another word is close enough to it sometimes I might misread it, but this misreading is rare. I do not read super fast, but pretty fast, and I am a good speller. Does anyone else notice seeing/reading words that way?
What article is this, mamaandmore? Can someone post a link? thanks!

I can't promise profound...

I was an absolutely LOUSY speller as a kid, despite being GT and positively addicted to reading. In the big 5th grade spelling bee, I went out in the first round. No one could believe it, since I was the "smart one" in the class, especially verbally. The teacher actually gave me a second crack at the word because she figured I must have misheard her or something. It was very embarrassing.

To this day, I cannot spell a difficult word unless I can write the word down, and then I often make a mistake the first time. I do SEE the mistake as soon as it is on paper, but I need to use my eyes to catch it. I think I am a visual-verbal person, if there is such a creature, because I'm very visual but not spatial. (I'm beginning to suspect that might be what DS7 is, too, BTW.)

DS7 is very good at sounding words out, but his spelling tends to be phonetic, which is not always correct in the goofy English language. I wouldn't say he's a better speller than average. He does fine, but I don't think he spells things that other kids his age couldn't spell.

I suspect spelling is one of those odd obsessions kids might choose to have, as my son chose cars or Transformers. But NOT choosing spelling as an obsession doesn't necessarily mean a child isn't GT. I suspect the English language is so goofy that a child isn't likely to have a natural talent for spelling--at least not with very advanced words--without some study. But if the child studies spelling, that could indicate GTness.

No evidence, just anecdote...

This is the what I read: "Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

It looks like it's a misinterpretation of some research that was done previously, there's an interesting discussion of what the research actually says at http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/ I'm sorry I referenced this without checking it out!

Even if the references in the article aren't correct, I still suspect that being a good speller might be helped by being a careful reader (which my DS6 isn't, he's fast and has good comprehension, but not careful).

ETA: Dottie and Kriston got in while I was writing this (it's one of those mornings, lol)!

I just went back and looked at DS6's achievement scores and interestingly his spelling is exactly a year below comprehension and 2.5 years below word decoding, yet still 2 years above age level. So, maybe I'm doing just what the article Dottie referenced was talking about- penalizing him because his spelling isn't at his reading level instead of giving him credit for being well above age level.

I also wonder about spelling in tests vs. spelling in actual work. I know perfectly well the difference between there, their, and they're and can get them right all the time on a test. But when I look back on my posts here, I see that I have used them wrong more than once. I am sure that I am so caught up in my profound thoughts that the edit function of the brain takes a back seat. My fingers are just typing the sounds I am hearing in my head and my higher brain is working on the idea and there is no part of my brain that is left to make sure I follow the rules.

I see DS doing this all the time in the stories he writes. When you have a kid trying to work out a big intersting idea and his fingers aren't keeping up with his brain anyway, it seems unfair to also ask him to stop and review spelling. It's just an obstacle to the writing process. If the work ever goes from a rough to a final draft that is when you get a chance to think about the spelling.

Wiw, tiis is so cuil! I usid to wijkir if I wes smuwt! I ciond riad thit, so I midt be! Yiy!

This is me too -- DS spells absolutely at dead average for his age, but that's nothing like being able to spell what he writes! Argh! And it isn't exactly his most favorite thing to work on (nor mine...) so we aren't as consistent with it as other things.

One suspicion I have about spelling as a marker for giftedness is that I think it's one of those things that responds to experience/ practice. So you'll get more distinction between a kid who has worked on it than one who hasn't, or between one who has been presented an approach that works for him vs. one that doesn't, rather than strictly based on ability. And then it's likely affected by all kinds of LDs, just to complicate things! So while I'd say early spelling is definitely a "plus" it's not quite diagnostic. If you know that the ability is (relatively) spontaneous then I think it probably is an indicator, but for the purposes of norming tests and making generalizations, they can't really distinguish the gifted speller from the well-trained speller.

This is drifting off-topic just a little, so please forgive. But I was curious about speed reading and spelling and spent some time googling. I wasn't sure how fast speed reading is (my son appears to be in the very lower range of speed reading, or the higher range of a fast reader?). But I found an article that mentions a correlation between a dyslexic child and speed reading.

http://www.speedreading4kids.com/add/add.html


I have no idea if my son is dyslexic or not... He sometimes writes his letters backwards, but it happens rarely. He has trouble focusing sometimes, and could be ADD, or it could just be the way he is and how his brain is wired? His spelling is very phonetic (which can be down right odd looking for the English language), even on words that he should know how to spell. But I was very curious about the correlation?

Do any of the kids (or parents) in this group who are spelling-challenged fit into the Right-Brained model? Are the better spellers Left-Brained people? Kriston, you may have been pointing this out before when you mentioned visual-spacial learning. I'm still reading and trying to digest info on visual learning styles, so I'm a little behind on this topic.

Funny, DS4 came in the room earlier to tell me what game he picked out to play together and asked what I was doing. I showed him part of that article and asked him to read it. I cut and past from the part "it doesn't matter in what order the letters..." and he read the first sentence perfectly and then said "why did you mix up all the letters? I then told him to try to keep reading. He thought it was comical and he read the rest. He thought it was pretty cool. He got a little confused on one or two words and read them phonetically. That's amazing!

I have no idea about right- vs. left-brain. I am a very fast reader, though. I don't know if visual-verbal would mean that I'm left- or right-brained. I'm definitely visual, but I'm equally definitely NOT visual-spatial.

I can't tell whether DS7 is a fast reader yet or not. He is too advanced in reading compared to his agemates for me to tell if he's faster than they are or just able to handle more difficult texts. You know? I do know he's not fast at most things. But reading might well be an exception.

I'm also not sure if he's visual-spatial. When he took the SB-5, he appeared to be verbal. When he took the WISC, the tester commented on how "clearly" VS he is. Weird contrary results! That's one of the reasons I'm thinking something visual but not necessarily spatial. And again, I don't know how that fits with what you're asking.

Was that totally useless? :p

No great! DD8 and I are the speed readers in the family. DD6 is a slow reader, but she does have that vision issue working against her. That's all about eye muscle control at this point, so I'll get back to you when she's done with therapy! She is big time visual spatial, not even a question. So is DH. Now DD8, though, she seems to be visual spacial but also adept at auditory sequential learning. Her preferred learning method would be visual though, definately.

Now that WAS totally useless!

BTW, didn't anyone read my "coded" message?

Hmmmm...this is very interesting. I was identified GT in school but wound up having to have a spelling tutor!! LOL!!! Definitely not my strong suit but I can spell ok now and I absolutely love spell checker!!! I am also a speed reader but I have no idea how fast I can read. I just know if I am reading something and so is someone else, I usually have to wait a while as I finished long before they did. I'm also visual sequential.

My DS10 cannot spell to save his life. Part of it is due to his visual problems I have no doubt. He's doing better now thank goodness. The verbal was his strong suit on the WISC and he is definitely visual-spatial.

Not sure what any of this means though!

ebeth, look at the latest visual thread Kriston started a few days ago and see if any of that fits your DS.

I read it 'Neato - it was really cool!!!!

I think it means there are some cool parents on this board that enjoy looking for patterns!


Gvaet, bibuaze, I wis thamjung thit itstiid of P.M.'s we coind cimmonavate in cibe simse the arvinle mimtiumed thit omny smivt piomle coind reid it.

Ok neato - now I had to think a little extry on that last coded message. That is amazing though, that you only need the correct number of letters in the middle, along with the right first and last letters, and I could still understand. Weird. I goiss it's bibuaze i'm so smivt?

Oh, I was always a good speller in grade school, and was extremely disappointed to learn after grade school that there were such things as spelling bees, and our school didn't participate in them. I think my spelling ability is related to my somewhat "photographic" memory - I can tell that a word doesn't look right. (When asked to spell a word, I'm best off if i can write it down, but I can picture it in my head if necessary.)

LOL! Of Coivze!

What evil virus? I'm glad you have been freed!

p.s.- you have also uncovered my coded point that the study is a little sketchy in that I suspect they carefully chose the nonsense letters in between the correct first and last. If you just randomly throw in letters it's easy to not understand the word, no matter how smart you are!


However, couldn't outsmart you!

Context helps, too, I think. If you get on the right path with it, you have a much easier time with it. But anything surprising or unexpected would mess you up, I think.

ugh - the evil Antivirus XP 2008 virus. Be warned, everyone. It is truly evil. I'm not sure how we got it, because we have 3 users, and one of them is 4 years old... But this virus pretends to be things that are totally legitimate and then eats away at all sorts of processes. i'm not techy enough to know what the deal is, but don't click on any popups you aren't 100% sure are related to your antivirus software. It starts out telling you that viruses have been found, and you should run the program to delete them. Don't press any buttons on this, even "close" or "no thanks" or "remind me later" - all tricks. You must close using the x in the upper right corner or alt-F4. That's the reason for my new avatar - i spend over 220 minutes on the phone, on hold or getting help to get rid of this virus.

LOL!

I'm sorry.. ........

But your post is too funny! LOL! Glad you can have a sense of humor about it! Thanks for the warning.

Oh Dottie, we crossposted. props: LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry for the non-spelling related rant! (but, you did ask neato!)
Back to topic (sort of ) - my DS4 can read very well, but has absolutely no interest in learning how to spell. I don't care about this really, but i guess i'm curious if people teach their kids spelling at the same time as reading, or do you handle it all separately?

Well DD8 just picked it up from reading. I haven't thought about it for DD6. It wouldn't be my favorite thing to do with them, though. Maybe I should consider it for DD6, but I'm kind of waiting to see if it's necessary.

My DS5 learned to read without any phonics at age 4. He started with sight words and now whenever he comes across a new word he asks me what it is and then never stumbles again. IMO, he is not a good speller. I really don't have a lot to compare him to though. He did get a SS of 123 on the WJ-III (94%) at age 5 years 1 month. I am very curious to see how he does in spelling when he actually gets to attend school.

I have never been a good speller but I am a super fast reader and read a lot as a child. I LOVE me some spell check.

I have enjoyed reading all the mixed up words/sentences in this thread. I guess I now know that I misspell on this board, I better make sure at least the first and last letter are correct and no one will mind.

LOL! Good thinking! Forget spell check--first and last is all you need. ROFL!

These responses are all interesting to me - sounds like everyone's different. I'm not going to worry about it at all. Since DS taught himself how to read, i'll let him figure out how to spell too, if he wants to, before he hits school. (of course if he asks, I will help by at least telling him to get the first and last letters right.)

I tried to think back to my own spelling beginnings, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. The only thing I remember about spelling when I was little was that i wanted to know the right way to spell things, not how they sounded.

I never have taught DS4 spelling (of course I never taught him reading either and he is great at that). I answer him when he asks how to spell words. He usually doesn't ask that much...and typically spells things right. I figure there will be plenty of time for spelling. It does seem to come naturally to him, as most things do. Very different from me...I wasn't advanced although I was always a pretty good speller.

Sorry, jumping on a little late here ...

Kriston, I'm *exactly* the same way. I'm a phenomenal speller on paper, but I cannot for the life of me spell even simple words out loud. In my former life, I was a copy editor (and a good one, I might add) ... but put me in a spelling bee and I'm done. I need to *see* the word, and I can see the error. But I can't do it out loud.

I'm a super-fast reader, and ds6 is the same way -- he read all six Kirsten American Girl books in 75 minutes. I even questioned him -- he read them all! He's a whole word reader for the most part, and I think his spelling is the same as mine. We just *see* the error.

Dottie -- I *loved* Ender's Game. What a great book.

BTW, DS6 had no trouble with that excerpt. He asked about 3 words, one of which was Cambridge, and that's an exposure thing. He thought it was really cool!

Funny you should mention this my DS is the same way his hand writing looks psychotic and i can hardly get him to write anything however the boy can build a computer in his sleep so i have to pick my battles in that arena. Not to mention i was looking through his room and I found an index card on it with handwriting nicer than mine. The card held game codes for Grand Theft Auto, and my boy had written them with his own hand. So it wasn't that he couldn't do it just that he didn't find it necessary for which i am thankful.