DS will be dual-enrolled at his high school and a local community college next year. The people running his program want the kids to take the math and English placement exams now (they can retake any portion of the test later to boost scores). The college uses the ACT Compass, and its math portion has different starting points; DS will start at level 3 out of 3 ("College algebra," which I think is also known as "Algebra 2.") If you do well on level 3, they move you to Level 4 (trigonometry).

I downloaded a large set of sample math problems and we saw that the test is pretty serious (sample problems from the Accuplacer were equally serious). There were a variety of problems on functions, as well as stuff on geometry, complex numbers, and so on. The goal of this test is clear: it wants to know if you can work with numbers. None of the questions I saw were of the clever-sneaky types that dominate the SAT, and they test what you need to know for calculus extremely well. The tests aren't even timed.

The College Board owns the Accuplacer and ACT owns Compass. So my question is, why don't they use these tests in place of the SAT and ACT? Is it because so many students would bomb a serious test, and we can't have that until they've already enrolled in college and have therefore fulfilled our national everyone must go to college requirement? And by extension, now that the box has been checked, no one cares if how many kids fail the REAL college entrance exam and end up in remedial math purgatory?

With only a bit of ingenuity, these tests should be easily adaptable to SAT-type use. Given that a lot of kids are taking advanced math/precalc in 10th or 11th grade, using the tests this way would have a huge bonus of telling the kids if they're ready for college calculus (or at least on the right track) well in advance of enrollment. Personally, I would rather learn where I stand in October of my senior year rather than, you know, the week of the deadline for registering for classes (obviously, the kids would retake the test at college, but they'd have a good idea of what to expect and where they stood for over a year at that point).

For the colleges, serious tests would also serve to give a much more accurate picture of their applicants than the current tests.

Food for thought.

Colleges such as MIT, Caltech, and Harvey Mudd that really want to measure applicants' knowledge of math through pre-calculus require the SAT math subject test. Some selective colleges require two SAT subject tests, but most of those do not require that one of the subject tests be in math.

The list of colleges requiring subject tests http://collegeapps.about.com/od/sat/a/sat-subject-test-required.htm is not long. Apparently, most colleges have concluded that the loss in applicants caused by requiring another test outweighs the benefit in assessing the preparation of applicants.

ACT Math is straightforward math through Pre-Calc, so I don't even understand why ACT has a separate test. That seems odd. And as Bostonian noted, you could take the SAT Subject Test Math Level I or II. My 10th grader will take Math Level II in June. Most kids I know, even those who are not "math types", take one of the Math Subject Tests. Eldest is not into math but took the Subject Test.

I should start a separate thread, but I have often wondered what Algebra is doing in college. Our district HS won't even accept courses from the local CC - the only summer courses for which they will grant credit are those taken at a highly regarded private school. They will grant credit for courses taken at several area four year colleges (within walking distance of the HS).

I think you may be missing my point, which is that we don't tell kids that they aren't ready for college math soon enough, and that we could if we made substantial, meaningful changes to the SAT and ACT.

The SAT is presented as THE test for determining college readiness, and overall performance on it is regularly touted as describing this characteristic. I also looked at ACT math; the questions are a lot easier than those on the Compass and Accuplacer tests.

The SAT subject test is another test that costs more money and takes more time, and I don't hear anyone advising college-bound juniors and seniors to take it in order to determine if they're ready for calculus. That's what Accuplacer/Compass are for.

It seems that at least 58% and maybe as high as 68% of community college students end up in remedial courses, with wthe greater number in remedial math. These students are highly unlikely to take an SAT subject test, especially because it's not required for enrollment (most public four-year-universities presumably don't require them either).

IMO, given a) the high costs of college and the amount of loan debt and b) our national mantra about everyone going to college, we should be bending over backwards to inform kids about their skill levels, not forcing them to figure out that they should be taking an SAT subject test or whatever.

I think you may be missing my point, which is that we don't tell kids that they aren't ready for college math soon enough, and that we could if we made substantial, meaningful changes to the SAT and ACT.


Bingo.

DD already ran through a practice placement test for her Uni and concluded that Trig was a complete waste of her time-- she placed into calculus easily, and enjoyed the questions.

This in sharp contrast to how she actually performed on the SAT math section, which made her so anxious that she wasn't willing to even take the SAT-MathII at all, in spite of all indicators being that she'd probably do very well on it. She loathes the way that College Board writes (and grades) exams. She finds the writing evaluation to be particularly superficial and meaningless, but the math questions are almost as bad (at least on the SAT).

So honestly, MIT and Mudd both lost out on DD applying in large part because of that requirement. Now, I realize that they want to winnow the applicant pool to those who are legitimately able, but it DOES disproportionately impact students who have limitations related to disability (check), SES, or geography. Oh well.

The AP Potential tool already tells them their chance of scoring a 3 or higher on the AP Calculus AB or BC exam using PSAT or SAT scores http://www.collegeboard.com/counselors/app/expectancy.html?calcbc , and AP exams are supposed to be normed to have same difficulty as college classes in the same subject. I doubt that replacing the SAT math with Compass or Accuplacer will improve predictions much.

You make a good point. I have said before, and I'll say again, I do not like the idea that every kid should go to college. If you haven't taken Algebra II in HS (and passed with an okay grade), you have no business in college, unless it is a specialized program with no Gen Ed requirements (some arts programs come to mind).

Take a look at this article - these kids should not be encouraged to go to college.

http://articles.philly.com/2013-12-22/news/45447656_1_sat-benchmark-college-board-three-students

The article says that 46 percent of kids that didn't meet the SAT college ready benchmark went to four year colleges. Encouraging them to go to college isn't helping those kids or the community. I know it would never pass, but maybe there should be a law that there are no federal loans for a kid's college education unless they meet the College Board or ACT college ready standards. May sound harsh but it would bring kids back to reality.

Let's face it, the college placement tests are not difficult. My eldest put off taking the online math placement test, then got a concussion (hit by a pitch) right before the test deadline. She is no math wiz, but she got the highest placement (even with a concussion). You think these kids would realize earlier that they weren't college material, with all of the standardized tests they give in school.

I agree completely.


Here is where I disagree, but only because these kids wouldn't be going BACK to reality. For most, the Accuplacer/Compass tests are their FIRST forays into the reality of what is required to succeed in college.

Remember, the message kids get in the US is everyone must go to college. Actually, no, it's more like Everyone must go to college lest ye die!!!!! This message is thrown at students from the time they start kindergarten. The schools are increasingly providing substandard teachers and curricula (poor textbooks, watered-down material, over-reliance on multiple choice high-stakes testing, etc. etc.). Plus, almost everyone here has experienced, they're generally reticent at best to admit that some kids are smarter than other kids. So we end up with many these kids getting As and Bs in their high school classes. They can't possibly know that what they're being taught falls so far short of the line, because they've never seen what's on the other side of that line. IMO, they are quite reasonably expecting that they can succeed in college. It's the adults who are to blame for this mess, not the kids.

I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for kids today. They're being spoonfed lies, and IMO, one of the lies is the SAT/ACT testing process. An honest test set at the level of the Accuplacer or the Compass would be a cold, hard required dose of reality, well before they finish high school. This is very different from learning about their skill deficiencies during orientation week, from signing up for a specialized subject test that's not required for admission, or from running a statistical analysis (what's that, anyway? they'll think) of your PSAT score.

They don't need to "run a statistical analysis" to use the AP Potential site I mentioned, but they will need to understand a statement such as "students in your score range have an X% chance of achieving Y." They will need to understand such a statement regardless of the test given, if they are to be guided by a test score.

I guess I don't think the SAT & ACT are all that bad. No test is perfect, but I don't see that they mislead kids by being too easy. Show me a kid that scores 700+ on each section of the SAT. Will he need to take remedial courses? No. Now he may not be able to write a really well crafted essay, and perhaps he is not an AIME qualifier, but he knows enough to get by in his introductory classes.

I really don't think that the 700+ kid is going to need "College Algebra". I guess that someone needs to tell the 500 kid that being at the national average doesn't mean he is college ready. A "good, college ready" score depends upon your K-12 experience, as well as where you hope to attend college. Even though the course names may be the same, a math degree from MIT has got to be different than one from Satellite Campus State U.

Um-- you do realize what the percentiles are for earning over a 700 on any one section on the SAT, right?

Yeah, I do realize the percentiles. 700 Math is around 93rd percentile. However, at our district HS it is 70th percentile. I guess my day to day experience is different from the norm. I doubt that many kids in our area require remedial math in college - and those few who would require it don't go to college.

While in some sense I agree. It really should be not all kids should or need to go to 4 year B.A. programs. The reality is what USED to be vocational programs are now in often community college and called "COLLEGE". And it really depends on WHAT the student wants to learn if they need any math beyond Algebra II.

Second.. one thing I like about the U.S. system is that kids who mess up in H.S. for whatever reason have a second chance. Be it they just messed up and didn't take it seriously, their family life was terrible, have a chance to go to community college and improve things, and later transfer to 4 years schools. Often these students who pull themselves up like that can turn into excellent students. While it would be good if we could get everyone through a higher level math before "college" that is currently not the reality of how our system works.

Of course, I personally didn't take a single math class at my (top 20) college....

The use of Accuplacer and Compass for college course placement has been criticized for putting too many students in remedial courses. I think this is mostly blaming the messenger for the news.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/...ial-placement-tests#sthash.n6hZ5cRm.dpbs
Placement Tests Still Rule
Inside Higher Education
December 21, 2012
By Paul Fain

Research released earlier this year found that commonly used placement tests fail to adequately determine whether incoming college students need remedial coursework. Yet most colleges rely exclusively on tests like the ACCUPLACER or COMPASS, according to a new study from the National Assessment Governing Board.

Only one in five colleges uses any criteria other than standardized testing -- such as high school grades or class rank -- to decide which students require coursework in remedial mathematics, the study found. And just 13 percent of colleges used other measures for placement in remedial English.

There is little national consensus on what constitutes college-ready. The new research found substantial variation in the remedial “cut scores” colleges’ use with the two popular placement tests, as well as for the use of the ACT and SAT to place students. Community colleges generally set a higher bar than do four-year institutions, according to the study, a result that surprised experts.

Roughly 1,560 colleges responded to the survey from the National Assessment Governing Board, which was conducted at the behest of the U.S. Department of Education and with help from Westat, a private research firm. The board oversees the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which Congress created to measure student learning. The findings are based on remedial policies in place last fall.

Remediation is a hot topic among the college completion set. While it isn’t a concern at highly selective colleges, fully half of all undergraduates and 70 percent of community college students take at least one remedial course, which are generally not credit-bearing. But the vast majority of those students will fail to eventually earn a credential. As a result, a growing number of state lawmakers, with a nudge from Complete College America and other groups, support legislative fixes to remedial education.

Placement tests may be part of the problem, according to reformers.

Two highly publicized studies, released in February by the Community College Research Center at Columbia University’s Teachers College, found that large numbers of students are being unnecessarily placed into remedial courses.

...

I remember this news story. As I recall, there were two major problems. First, the colleges were being very casual about the test and telling students, "Oh, it's not a big deal; just go take it now." This was bad for students who hadn't thought about math in three or four months. The second problem was that they wouldn't let them retake the test. When this information came
out, it made the colleges look very bad.

Nowadays, things are different. The college my son will be attending has a note saying that studying is "highly recommended." Sample questions are provided. I checked the other local colleges and found roughly the same things: sample questions and links to study aids and/or advice on how to study. DS's school will let students take the test twice in 365 days; some schools do this, others don't.

ETA: when this story broke two years ago, I also checked the local college websites, primarily as a way to check claims that "no one told me to study." There was nothing about studying back then, and one college even had a blurb about how they weren't a big deal.

Given the watered-down nature of US high school math classes, I do NOT agree with that article's claim that grades are better at predicting placement than these tests, which are untimed and straightforward.

My thoughts exactly.

Similarly in our district. And they are also told that a high score can mean the difference between having to pay for non-credit courses and diving right into a degree-granting pathway. There are also free prep courses available, both before and after testing, at local CCs.