DS grade 8 has been miserable at school.

Pulled him from school a few weeks ago after months of unhappiness. He begged to go back and now he's miserable again. Miserable and also defiant, rude etc. This happened in grade 7 (absent the defiant and rude part) and so is a pattern.

I'm happy to change direction and do DL (distributed learning) and maybe eventually homeschooling.

Here's the question - I'm stuck on whether school is just not a good fit and his temperament requires a different learning situation and whether he needs some help. Oh and he refuses to talk to anyone "why would I talk to a stranger?".

I have been super-humanly patient and calm (if I do say so myself) but I'm about to crack. He has been a more sensitive person and has had some anxiety in the past. I struggle to separate his school issues into legitimate this doesn't work from me and trouble coping/dealing.

Forcing (if it's even possible) mental health professionals on him almost almost seems like pathologizing what might just be his personality. But I'm too close and this has been happening for too long. Please help.

I don't have much advice, but can share that The Explosive Child book and corresponding website livesinthebalance.org have helped me a lot.

Sanne - thank you for your response. I actually have that book. The thing is the rudeness is quite out of character which is showing me that he's really close to the edge. He has been going to sleep later and later and after a few days he just can't cope and lashes out. Of course, much advice, device removal, wifi shutoff etc but you can't make a kid go to sleep.

Aww, poor kiddo!

If he could sleep well, he would sleep well? What is keeping him up?

I think he's self-sabotaging.

Does anyone else have a sensitive gifted kid that doesn't fit with school?

I was one. Forcing me to go to school meant I quit as soon as it was legal (15 then) and had very rough teenage years before I went back to education.The sleeping is also probably partly adolescent sleep hours starting.Does he change schools next year? Has he had a check for depression?

Hi Puffin,

Thanks for your comments.

That's my gut feeling. It's just not for him. Too much input/pressure or something. What was it that made it uncomfortable for you?

Yes, definitely the beginning of the sleep shift but he's pushing it beyond what it should be.

He isn't showing signs of depression. Has windows of his usual happy self, is lively with friends, gets out and about, is eating well etc.

Here high school starts at grade 8 so he's already in the new school.

Based on your previous threads on a similar topic, some might say there is BOTH a poor school fit AND your son needs help. Each aspect may be exacerbating the other.

He must at least be able to articulate the source/s and/or trigger/s of the difficulties with school. He may need help in being able to isolate and identify the various problems... so that the solutions will be on-target, and not make matters worse.

If he is not willing to see a counselor, maybe you could see one to get some help and support. They may be able to give you new ideas also.

Hi Indigo,
Thanks for your comment. You're right and yes I've brought this up at different stages. He explains why he's unhappy where he is - issues that have to do with the program but I'm not clear that it's just that or if it is really even that and not emotional issues that he can't articulate. But it does come down to how to move forward.

If he does need help then I should/have to see a counselor myself to figure out how to help him.

If he is miserable and just wasting his time (and his teachers) I should probably pull him.

When he tells you of issues with the program, do you make a list and brainstorm with him about...
- what could be changed,
- how things might change to be an improvement for him (and possibly others as well),
- ONE change that might make circumstances tolerable,
- reality check on how things work, why they work that way,
- etc?

It might help him to know that you hear him, that you are in his corner, and that you want him to be part of the solution so that the solution works for him.

Would the above steps prepare you to advocate at the school for any change(s)?

Indigo - thanks for your, as usual, thoughtful and wonderful ideas. I really appreciate all the support.

We have hashed out the details (many many times) of what's not working with me chiming in when it is just the way things are.

Lately he has been frustrated with not getting support on things he's confused about (he missed a few weeks). He says that when he asks they tell him to "just do it". I think their aim is that kids should have a good idea of how things work by now and I imagine they're trying to create a level of independence. That has him just backing away and not caring (or trying not to care). The tricky part comes when he doesn't want me to interfere. I imagine if I nudge the teachers to give him more support they'll approach him and ask him if he understands and he'll just say yes. But that's where it is right now.

I am planning on getting in touch with the teachers to ask what they're seeing on their end. He is pulling out attitude to cover up being miserable - or maybe it naturally flows from being miserable. Not helpful and doesn't lead to empathetic teacher responses.

I'm thinking the program is designed for strong learners (which he is) that are confident extroverts (which he is not - yet).

Good idea Howdy. It might come to that.

There is no such thing as a dumb question. Possibly the teachers need to be reminded of that.

I think it is great that you plan to ask the teachers what they see on their end. Possibly that will give you the opportunity to ask specifically about any time your son may have asked a question and received a reply which may have sounded something like just do it.

"If your teacher isn't able or willing to help, how can you get your questions answered?"

Are you willing to bring your homework home?
Do you want a tutor?
Do you want help finding lectures?
Do you think anyone at the university could explain this better?

My son is a top-down learner. Middle school level texts make no sense to him. However, if I give him a college level textbook or lecture FIRST, then he sees how the incomplete/simplified information fits into the complete picture. When my son doesn't understand, what he means is that he wants the big, complicated, college-level picture. When your son's teachers say "just do it", they might be saying that he knows enough to answer the questions and maybe that they aren't able to explain at the depth your son really NEEDS in order to comprehend it fully.

Just a guess??

These are great ideas, sanne!

tillamook, has your son ever shared an observation that the teachers just do not seem to know more about a topic or how to explain it? I've seen that a bit and believe it may be rather commonly experienced among gifted kids. It just never occurred to me in this series of threads.

Indigo - I have sent them emails asking what they're seeing on their end and suggesting that he needs more support as he is confused about some assignments. I haven't heard back yet.
Again, I think they're trying to foster independence - which I get - but it's causing stress so I hope they can adjust their strategy for his needs.

I actually don't see incidences of this. Though he has commented that they do something for five minutes and then spend classes analyzing and writing about it. He feels it's a make work situation because they're very busy.

Yes, that sounds to me like a make-work situation; very little learning of new material and very much keeping busy. Keeping kids busy is not the same as keeping them engaged.

It does though I hesitate to judge as I'm not there. Perhaps analysis of learning is key. Waiting to hear back from the teachers. I guess we'll see. This limbo is miserable though.

I can see how this path diverges

- one version of me pulls him home to figure out a better way for him to learn. That could restore him to his happy calm self and open him up to a world of learning and confidence in taking a different path (or degenerate into arguments and power struggles).

- another version of me keeps making him go - for his own good and for the development of his character. That could have him continue on this path of intentionally doing bad and going to bed super late so he can barely function so the school sucks thing becomes a reality he can hold on to to justify sub par performance. (or he could learn that he needs to face difficult things and become a better version of himself)

Would he work with you on discussing various paths, the things that each would require to ride out the current storm... find/create better (or least-worst) options... and be successful...?

A diagram may be helpful. Drawing doodles, cartooning, or comics may also help him look ahead, plan, and express himself on these matters.

It seems that he is at a crossroads... breakdown or breakthrough. Here's hoping for a breakthrough. You can guide him with a steady hand, but ultimately it is up to him to take ownership of his life, relationships, and education... and make things work to whatever degree possible.

I would be quite frank in saying these things to him, and I believe these would be my answer to his every grumble, mood, complaint, etc from here on out.

As an aside... considering his current level of stress, I would think that eating healthy would be of crucial importance. I would keep plenty of fresh fruits, veggies, nuts, cheese, etc on hand for quick, nutritious snacking.

Again, good ideas Indigo.

I have discussed both options with him (staying and going) but we haven't talked through all the details for each path (the latter having more than one option).

Unfortunately the way forward is tangled up with what each of his parents feel is the best for him (not always exactly the same) with both worried and uncertain. Also the current situation involves deciding whether he should tough out the program he's in or pulling him to do what? It's too late to start something else.

When I look at it I would say pull him contingent on his mapping out (and us approving) a learning plan for the final 6 weeks of the school year.

DH would definitely like him to finish the year where he is. I'm second guessing what I think is the best path because of my extra dose of mother empathy. Both parents perspectives are so important. How to reconcile?

He eats voraciously and quite healthily but very good point.

Have you considered drawing decision trees? Each person would draw one or more versions. They can be great for discussion... keeping the discussion focused and on track... allowing each person's thoughts to be shared. The likelihood of each branch in the tree could be discussed and possibly labeled. Sketching decision trees could facilitate analysis of which paths would lead to the desired goals... it may be revealed that people have different goals. There are no right-or-wrong answers in this... doodling decision trees is just a tool... one more way to ensure everyone is heard, understood, has thought things through to the best of their ability with the information available to them at the present point in time. The family could then identify the "missing" information and conduct research, essentially forging new paths if needed. The key, I believe, is to keep communicating and maintain respect despite difference in viewpoint and/or knowledge base.

Interesting idea! I'm off to study decision trees now...

Thanks again!

Just in case it may apply in this case, and may be of help...
- some thoughts on growth mindset,
- what kids don't learn without an appropriate challenge.
Take-away: Some leaps, risk, and therefore stress are necessary for growth and learning. These are important ideas to impart to our kids, to help them embrace an appropriate challenge and be willing to venture into the unknown.