DS9 will start middle school (fifth grade) in September and turn 10 in October.

We were so sure that we were going to enrol him in the congregated gifted program of the other side of town, but now we are having second thoughts and are very conflicted.

The "regular" option would be the public college prep track middle/high school right next door to his catholic elementary, around 700 students. College prep track in this country was originally designed for kids around the 80th percentile and above, but the enrolment is closer now to 60th percentile and above, with high attrition rates making it around the 70th percentile by graduation. He would enter the science track with physics starting in 7th and chem (I think) in 8th, two foreign languages starting in 5th (English) and 6th (French or Latin). A number of kids from his present class might go there. It's in the town center this side of the state line and his father teaches there, too. They have a very successful robotics program. One of their strengths is supporting immigrant kids, but their language arts are comparatively weak.

The gifted program is one track of a somewhat larger public college track middle/high school (over a thousand students) on the other side of town across the state line. There are no other gifted options. The class will be made up of kids from all over the region. The cutoff is in theory a score of 120 on a group test, however, most parents will prefer a borderline child to excel in regular college prep track rather thanh be challenged in a gifted track, so the cohort tends to skew higher - as in, kids will be enrolled if parents think they really need the challenge and the different environment, because there is a stigma attached rather than prestige. The curriculum is the regular college prep curriculum, telescoped weekly, with about a fifth of the instructional time devoted to enrichment. Its also bilingual, as in a few classes will be taught in English (not our instructional language). It's in another state and the state curriculum is considered comparable to ours, though not quite as rigorous. They have robotics team and math Olympiad team. I think they may have better exchange programs - though I have so many friends in English and French speaking countries, we may easily set up something privately. Music offerings are probably comparable.

The huge con of the gifted program is the commute. 50 - 60 minutes on the city bus there and back again, changing at the central station during rush hour. The area the school is in is considered a ghetto, with drug dealing, though I am not sure how much it impacts students on the way to class - it WiLL be dark in the mornings in winter.

The second con is related: with the big catchment area, friends might live wherever. There are a few families scattered in our town we might set up car pools with, but it will be a huge hassle, as compared to the other school where he would just ride with his dad in the mornings and take the city bus In the afternoon for a 20 minute ride. The regular school also appears to have better lunch and afternoon care options.

Academically, in the regular school, he will not be challenged intellectually in math and science at all. He might find a little challenge in language arts or foreign languages, though I doubt it. However, it will not be mind numbing boredom, either. I have heard criticism that the combination of telescoping/enrichment in the gifted track isn't ideal either, because it's not really "more" or "harder" - just less time on task, and time wasted on project type stuff that doesn't really go anywhere.

Socially, he did alright in the high SES catholic elementary he went to. W had decided against another grade skip (he's already entered early) because he wasn't ready socially and it has worked out very well in that he is happy with the class and school he's in, and enjoys the many projects and field trips (there is a LOT of worship, and they prepare it well, skits, music etc and he's enjoyed that - much better than spending time on doing work that was too easy). While he might find his peeps in the gifted track, he has done alright so far in that respect. I hear that one of the cons of the gifted track is that it attracts students who badly struggle - and the problem is NOT just academic fit. DS' therapist actually advises against the school for that reason, having seen too many problematic kids and families there.

The regular middle school has a good reputation for letting kids work at their individual pace - as in differentiating DOWNWARDS and supporting struggling students, which college prep schools are historically loath to do. DH will have to find out how it works for strong students, he rarely teaches middle school.

There is the strong robotics team, and DH mumbled he might do something about physics Olympiad, which would actually be his job! I also told him he'd have to offer some kind of club every year that somehow happens to be perfect for his own kid.

DS9, who tends to over focus (kWIM;)) was for years totally focused on going to his Papas school. Them the gifted program came up, whenever he had a meltdown about being so under stimulated we promised him he could finally work at his pace there and now he's totally focused on the gifted program. However, I know once he realizes what the bus ride might mean, he might be very anxious about that and it may be the deal breaker.

Sorry for the novel. I'd appreciate all thoughts!

My first piece of advice is to have a practice run on the bus. Take it to the school with the gifted program, explore the school a bit (even if only from the outside), and then ride the bus home again. What does he think about doing that every day?

FWIW, I used to commute by train and loved it. I taught myself French on that train by reading novels. The bus could actually be a plus (e.g. it could be a good time to get homework done).

Yes, we absolutely have to do the bus. I was thinking we could do it on the day of the group test, but it's probably not such a good idea - I do not want the problem to be solved by his bombing the group test, be it out of exhaustion or on purpose!

Turns out than DH's school actually has a very cool offering: the band class! All kids in that class get to try out band instruments and then have lessons in their instrument for two years and form their own mini band until they can join the regular school band in 7th. Drums are offered - that's a long term dream of his. However, when I asked DH who might in in charge of the band program, turns out it might be the music teacher he's not speaking to any more ever since they clashed over exam vs rehearsal schedules. Ugh. I can just see that teacher insisting DS learn euphonium just to spite DH.
DH has a whole list of questions of his phone which he will hopefully remember to ask of his middle school colleagues (he teaches mainly high school).

Is that 50-60 minutes each way? Adding 2 hours every school day? If so you may not have to worry about the catchment area - I'm not sure he would have time for socializing... To me that would be a deal breaker. I would not send a 9 year old on the kind of commute you are describing. Not only because of the duration but also because I would be uncomfortable about the central bus station at rush hour and the neighborhood you describe as the school's location. I am imagining numerous scenarios that would just make me too uncomfortable with a 9 year old.

I think having DH in the other school sounds like a huge plus. Between his ability to create interesting clubs and the potential for working from the inside to assure DS has the best possible situation for challenge I think it sounds like it could work well. I would go for this option.

We do a 30-minute commute for my son's gifted school. He tried a rigorous STEM school, but it was a terrible fit and they wouldn't accelerate him the way he needed, so we had to withdraw him.

I think you have a realistic expectation of the problems with the gifted school. For us, it means, it's more challenging to volunteer and be active parent participants in the school, after school activities can be more challenging, and my son's friends live about an hour away, which is not fun. On the other hand, my son is extremely happy with his school and has a terrific friend group. We think the academics are, for the most part, appropriate (math could be more challenging, but he has a private tutor, so he gets challenge outside of school).

I think you might want to consider the nearby school first. It would be such a relief if you didn't have to spend up to 2 hours a day on a bus. I can't even imagine. If it doesn't fit, is it possible to then move him to the gifted school?

Yes, it's 50 minutes one way, sometimes over an hour (though school will be out for lunch most days of the week, so it's about being home at 2 pm or later, not 5 pm the way it would be in the US). It's the absolute amount if time that bothers me. (I am a commuter myself and I hate the way it eats up my day). And if he misses a connection, he'd have to keep track of different routes - like sometimes he'd have to get the 850, sometimes the 870, sometimes the 88, transferring at different stops...it's a mess. I'd much rather have him on a train - it's city buses, too, and will be crowded, so I cannot imagine he could do much more than fitful reading. Personally, I d o not mind traveling on trains at all, but on buses tend to get mildly car sick..
A friend who is considering the school as well talked to the current parent of a sixth grader in a neighbouring village and reports that the sixth grader, a big guy for his age, is still scared to use the bus and to get off in that dodgy neighbourhood, so they try to drive him most days and are completely burnt out already. They'd probably jump at the chance to carpool with us, but the mere thought of the hassle makes me feel exhausted.

We have to think of the siblings, too - DD5 will start grade school in fall at his current elementary which is so conveniently located next to DHs school, with many more car pool options and a much more palatable bus ride. It would be so nice to have them all close. and the kids could ride the bus together. When we have had a child care crunch, DS9 would just walk over to DH s school for the afternoon and do his homework in the science resource room, sometimes even sit in in classes. The juniors and seniors never minded! And DS3, severely disabled, is currently stable and is being picked up by a minibus every day and taken to the special needs preschool, so that's in theory sorted, but there are a lot of therapy appointments and the next surgery is always waiting to happen.

My in laws are wonderful about helping out, but I am pretty sure they would not feel the hassle of chauffeuring is warranted, FIL having been a science teacher at DHs school as well...

The ironic thing is DH is fixing up a house in the city center which is much closer to both schools, but it won't be done for years. It just feels wrong to deprive DS of this option because of timing and commuting issues. But we are almost running on empty as it is, both parents dealing with exhaustion and health issues.

I know that some kids transfer for 6th grade, maybe 7th. Guess we will have to keep that as an option.

First, I have every confidence that you and your spouse are going to make the best decision you can, based on the information you have, and that if it turns out not to work out, you will be able to come up with an alternate solution.

Second, I think it's important to remember that, if you conclude that the commute would not be sustainable, given the rest of your circumstances, you will not be shortchanging your DS by not sending him to the gifted school. If the commute creates an unhealthy situation for your family, then you would be harming him by sending him there, at the cost of other, vital contributors to his well-being (and the well-being of your other children--not to mention you and your DH!). IOW, it may be wise to consider whether sending him to a particular school would be depriving him of healthy (physically, emotionally, and mentally) parents and family life, which, in the big picture, is far more important than perfect academic fit.

It's a good living lesson, too, that he is much more than his academic ability, and that everything you've taught him about being a whole, balanced person actually affects the way you make decisions of substance. Whether you end up sending him to the school near or far away, having some access to this discussion about how it affects the whole person could be quite instructive.

Thank you aeh for your kind words and thoughtful advice. I will keep it all in mind.

FWIW, my therapist told me just yesterday that I was basically insane for even thinking about adding the stress of that commute to our family. However, she also insisted that college prep track was a step up for every kid and he would find challenge in having to manage the homework load and study for exams - I just couldn't count on his cruising through school as he's done so far. Yeah right. The EF demands may kill us all but but fifth grade maths, LA and English? I was certainly able to mostly cruise until graduations do no one believed me then either. Though it wasn't mind numbing boredom any more, like elementary,

He will be okay. It's just you're always hoping for perfect for your kids kWIM?

Group testing today.
After, DS9 informed me in no uncertain terms that he loved the test, loves the school, wants the program and does not care how long the bus ride is.

Found a 40 minute ride that might work in the mornings. Now we will have to test drive it.

My 3 kids have all attended the gifted magnet school in our district. I was a little concerned about the 45 minutes-1 hour on the bus each way, but my kids have loved the social aspect of the bus ride. For example, the kids on last year's bus had certain things that they called out on different parts of the ride and ran a fake news broadcast once per week on the bus that included a stock report. Our set-up was a bit different in that we have dedicated yellow bus service that only transports kids from the gifted school. My point is that long bus rides can be fun, as long as you have some peers making the same ride.

Unfortunately, it will have to be the city bus, but he may meet schoolmates at the central station.
I mentioned our concerns to the program coordinator and he assured me that it's always the parents who are super apprehensive - the kids don't mind, after two weeks it's as if they've never done anything else.

We may not have to bother choosing - I was early to pick DS9 up and while they had put up a nice little sign on the door "exam in progress quiet please" no one cared that recess was in full swing in front LOL! DS thought that he might have messed up a lot of questions during all that racket but who knows. At least they're quick, I get the results on Thursday.

I'd like to add that it is SO rare for our anxious neophobia DS9 to say of something that involves new people, new places, real challenges and some discomfort to say "I want this."

It will be hard to say no, if no it is.

So we did the screening and the consultation and, somewhat disconcertingly, DS score is supposed to be one of the highest this year, with a FSIQ of 138.

I say disconcertingly because not only did he complain about the noise from recess but also from a stomachache he said he'd had all morning - I thought it was just nerves but it only got worse and was so bad the next morning he couldn't go to school! (There's this odd stomach bug going around that only does aches and nothing else, but comes and goes, his siblings and friends have all had it so. It's legit - he did enjoy the testing and complained he really wanted to go back to school the following day!)
He ceilinged on the verbal part that came first at 145, did still well on the quantitative part at 132 and then you can see the raw scores going down in the marking sheet as recess started, with nonverbal bottoming at 120....nice to know he can still hack it even so but I told them it was really unfair for borderline kids and they needed to change testing conditions.

Oh, and this test apparently not only uses outdated norms but is also grade normed - and DS is accelerated LOL!

Interview with parents and kid on Monday. The class may still not fill up and be cancelled.

DH said: "yeah, it's all well and good, but they're still out there in the boonies!"

Had the interview, wasn't much of a one, but gifted coordinator said the class is filling up well and as far as he can tell with very socially balanced and pleasant kids, and probably a third of them girls (the unbalanced gender distribution a perpetual problem due to their heavy stem component and GT girls often preferring the bilingual or music magnet schools or the catholic girls school in town) - "it will be a super class".
DS9 had a screaming fit when we made him go, who knows why, but was pleasant and coherent enough during the interview and afterwards he was skipping out of the building, talking about how much he loves his new school.
DH, off work sick, was the one behaving badly, dumping all his reservations about the program (most of which are problems created due to outer factors and not due to the school) on the poor man.
Naively, I'd thought that they might bond about the pleasures of teaching talented and motivated students. But DH just isn't sold, and I realize it's not so much the location but the idea of segregation and non-conformity inherent in congregated gifted programming, also reservations whether schools can really be just as good across the state line.
In some ways he doesn't get it - he has no traumas left over from his own education or none due specifically to being gifted, the way I have, due to his gifts not being so obviously academic and in your face the way mine were, and due to simply having better schools available, and he has always been able to create his own intellectual stimulation without being dependent on school or on other people, the way I have never been. I think that while the regular schooling options DS has are good enough, he is dependent on stimulation by teachers and other kids in ways I was and am, not independent like DH was and is, who will just do stuff on his own level on his own, period.
Sample discussion in your lives: "so if that is the choir you're looking for and can't find it in this town, why don't you start one like it?" - "because am just a very good singer, not a conductor, and anything I conducted would never be good enough for me!"

DS9 is enrolled in the gifted program now, simply because across the state line, the dead line for enrolment is this week so he had to be to keep the option open. We'd have to remove him and reenrol him in the regular school in May. DH was really mad on leaving the school because he realizes just how unrealistic this is - and realized that I have now come down firmly on the side of the gifted program, but we couldn't really discuss it because he was so sick!

If he just drives a few blocks on past his own and and past DDs future school, he can drop DS off at a bus stop where the bus would take him to the gifted magnet within 11 minutes, no changing. We will just all have to get up earlier and it will be hardest on me and DS.

Happy kids make happy parents. Unhappy gifted kids make parents life hell!

You have my sympathies Tigerle. When we started this whole adventure DH and I had different views. DH really wanted the kids in the neighborhood school, having friends that they could walk or ride their bike to on weekends and being more a part of our community. I was on board with that until it became obvious to me that DS was shutting down and hating it.

We quickly realized that we each came into this with completely different sets of baggage. We had VERY different school experiences and ways of coping with being gifted. The things that he looks back on and thinks - I wish that this would have been different are very different than what my wish list is/was. I also found it very hard to separate my own baggage and issues from what is actually going on in the moment with our kids. There were a few long nights and bottles of wine that went into the many discussions on this topic.

DH eventually came around and DS now goes across town to a congregated class. We're in the process of applying to move DD there next year. DS has absolutely thrived there and any reservations that DH had have completely gone away. Even with all of that behind us there was still much debate about what to do with DD but we're going to try it and see (hopefully she gets accepted...).

I will also say that the first couple months were rough. DS doesn't like change and this was a biggie. Eventually he settled in and now he loves it and would never go back.

Good luck!

You have my sympathies. How much reading/learning has your DH done about the benefits of congregated gifted education vs. alternatives? I get the impression, which could be wrong, that he is perhaps overweighting his own personal experience in education and his teaching experiences vs. research findings.

Have the scores for gifted education significantly changed?

I remember years ago that the minimum was a 135 for the in-school pull-out program.

Where I am the term gifted is used a bit loosely and every school board defines their own cut off for a gifted label and whatever gifted programming they have.

My kids can go to one of 4 public school boards all with completely different gifted criteria. The lowest local cut off for a gifted label is is 96%ile (~127), the highest is 98%ile (~130). In one board you can get a gifted label at 98%ile but the bar for congregated classes is at 99.6%ile (~140). You end up with kids gifted in one school but not in the one across the street or the one down the road. Some of the boards are very specific and want VCI's above the cut off while others accept GAI or FSIQ so it isn't even just that some boards are easier than others.

That is a lovely way to put it! I usually put it "you just always think you know so much better than every one else, including me!"

Seriously, he doesn't read and research. That's my job. His job then is to question the decisions I make after the fact and throw wrenches into the processes I've started, which drives me nuts.

No, I'm being unfair, he usually trusts me and supports my choices. It's only that telling him to read up on stuff doesn't help at all. This is resistance at a a visceral level, the way chay has described it, too. He teaches high ability kids himself, has taught gifted ed (until they cut the program at his school, he was actually the coordinator but they weren't happy with the way he did things, advocating actual gifted testing for gifted ed as opposed to teacher recs being one of the things the powers that be found unpalatable) and prides himself on the fact that gifted kids thrive in his classes. Which I am sure they do - in his classes, on their own. He does admit they are mostly on their own for the rest of the time.

He has always found peers, kindred spirits, outside of formal education. His best friend growing up didn't go to school with him but did votech high school, trained as a mechanic, before going back to school. He helped him in math so he could go to college. But they both share an ability to build absolutely everything they want to without needing anyone else to tell them how. They used to communicate silently when they worked together, handing one another tools without asking etc,. It was uncanny.

DS went to a European public university for a STEM degree, doing research. Im sure that at a certain level of advancement in a physics degree, everyone you meet will be at least MG anyway, even at European open enrolment universities. That was NOT true for a social science and languages student like me! I had to go to an elite school in the UK to find people who thought and felt like me, who crave the same level of intellectual stimulation in their discourse. This makes me want congregated gifted ed for my kid. For my DH, it is a kind of special ed that may make his kid unfit for the real world.

Europe, remember?
But I agree that the cutoff should be 130, not 120, with public college prep track catering to kids for the 70th percentile and above, a cut off around the 80th percentile for a single gifted classroom in a built up area of over 200,000 inhabitants sounds ridiculous. But they have a hard time filling the classroom, with gifted ed suffering from a stigma that regular college prep track doesn't. The official reasoning for moving the cutoff for 130 to 120 was that "we are moving to group tests and research shows that the highly gifted actually do worse on group tests" (before, they accepted individual testing as well) which pounds eve more ridiculous. But they are banking on a self selection bias with the stigma of gifted ed making sure that parents will seek entry into the gifted program based on the kids actual educational need rather than parents' need for social segregation (because you get that with regular college prep track, sadly) or prestige (which is easier to get by having a kid do well in regular college prep track, due to the stigma attached to gifted ed.