My DD's IB middle school encourages their students to spend their middle schools years evaluating their interests and creating rough drafts options of their future schooling. In other words they are encouraged to begin looking/comparing colleges and degrees which may be a good fit for them. The problem is, I have absolutely no clue as to what the difference is between Harvard, Yale, and the community college down the street, so I don't feel that I am in any position to offer assistance or guidance. DD does not come from a college bred lot, yet I am certain that she has the self motivation and brains to go anywhere she wants.

Does anyone have a good non-biased website or reference book which outlines many of the US schools in qualitative not quantitatve terms? The web is full of ratings and rankings, but they are of little use to us at this point in the game.

Please understand that I am not looking for your personal college opinions: merely seeking a reference starting point in which to narrow the field so DD can do her own research further into her areas/schools of interest.

Thanks!

Go to www.collegeboard.org You can look up all sorts of stats on colleges and you can do college comparisons. Put a college name in the college search (left side of page), then it takes you to the "Big Future" portion of the site. You'll find SAT/ACT scores, size of student body, % applicants accepted and much more. Then hit the Compare Colleges and you can compare stats for three schools.

The College Board tool (linked above) also allows students to sort based on costs, location, setting, and program emphasis. I wanted to mention that there are ways of looking at the qualitative factors that you're interested in.

The one sorting tool that we've looked (unsuccessfully) for is one that would allow sorting on the basis of pedagogy/academic culture. That is, are most classes taught with an interactive, intimate kind of philosophy involving faculty and classmates, or are they taught as cogs in a larger well-oiled 'machine' that has more-or-less interchangeable parts and uses the same script year after year while only the players (students, instructors) change? (That's not to say that the latter, if high-quality, isn't good for some students-- it's a learning style issue, mostly.)


In that mode, one must rely more on "best party school" lists as a negative indicator; in some sense also on size as a proxy for "more probably large/impersonal and less interactive." Research institutions may have a focus on efficiency at the lower-division undergraduate level, too.

I'm mentioning that because there are some limitations that I think it is important to be aware of when using sorting tools.


None of these measures are perfect, as you're probably well aware, and as soon as there IS a measurement tool, colleges will begin jockeying and 'spin-control' to make themselves look more appealing using that tool.

Forbes also had a recent college sorting tool that was fairly remarkable in that it differs significantly from the rubric that USN&WR uses, and also differs from College Board's.

Triangulation is a pretty good way to find institutions that offer what interests you-- at least theoretically. It's also a good way to find schools that make PR a top priority. Obviously.

This academic culture depends on the department as well as the school.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/14/concentration-satisfaction-results/
Smaller Concentrations Receive Highest Satisfaction Ratings
By FRANCESCA ANNICCHIARICO, JESSICA A. BARZILAY, JOHN P. FINNEGAN, and BRIANNA D. MACGREGOR, CRIMSON STAFF WRITERS
Harvard Crimson
February 14, 2013

The humanities reigned in the latest round of concentration satisfaction ratings, followed closely by the social sciences and life sciences. As was the case in previous years, smaller concentrations generally outperformed larger ones in the survey, which is taken every spring by graduating seniors.

Women, Gender, and Sexuality achieved the highest satisfaction rate among members of the Class of 2012 with a 4.78 out of 5. Only nine graduating seniors last year concentrated in WGS.

“Our students receive a lot of one-on-one attention,” said director of undergraduate studies in WGS Caroline Light.

Government and Economics, which boast two of the largest pools of concentrators in the College, placed in the bottom five in the most recent ratings.

The results did not surprise the government department’s Director of Undergraduate Studies Cheryl B. Welch, who said that satisfaction is usually inversely correlated with the size of the department.

The Fiske Guide to Colleges is one option. It has both some qualitative and quantitative information on over 300 colleges. Typical information you can find in a given college writeup in Fiske:

- a brief history of the college
- location and environment description
- a breakdown of the main academic focuses and strongest majors
- information on class sizes and academic tone/tenor
- an idea of the breakdown of the student body (geography, ethnicity, some less quantitative comments)
- housing information
- activity and extra curricular information
- test score ranges
- cost range
- size of college
- acceptance rates

It won't give you info on colleges like your local community college or state "directionals" (eg, Southern University). But the better state flagships are there, and a lot of private colleges.

I like Fiske because it is a mix of qualitative and quantitative information. You get the "flavor" of the college, not just the facts. We would often then go dig into the specific website of the college after deciding it was worth following up on from the Fiske guide.

But as howlerkarma said, the colleges are pretty heavily invested in marketing. Getting to the real pros and cons of a given college can be a challenge. Even with Fiske you have to read between the lines -- they don't really give negative reviews, but I have learned to spot a luke warm one, or the use of an adjective that tells me that a college might not be what we are looking for. But Fiske is a pretty approachable guide that might help you D start to look at some options.

One thing she might want to do is to attend a college fair - this is where reps from a bunch of different colleges are all available to talk to prospective students at the same time. It's a great way to have a chance to talk to people who've actually attended each college, and also to talk to college reps in person about what campus life is like, and whether or not your dd's interests and career goals are a good match with specific institutions.

You'll still be hit with marketing, but fwiw, when I've volunteered as a rep for my college I've been quite candid about life at the school, amount of studying etc required, and whether or not it's a potential fit for the potential student I'm talking to. That's what our college *wants* us to do as reps.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I have a somewhat different perspective to offer.

You said that you don't know much about different colleges. Given this, my opinion is that it's too soon to ask you and your DD to make choices about specific colleges. It's kind of like asking someone who doesn't know how to swim to choose the stroke he wants to use for racing in 5 years. He can't make an informed decision when he doesn't even know the difference between butterfly and crawl. He needs to learn about different swim strokes first --- and so do you and your DD.

So my advice would be to start with the basics. Sit down with your daughter and learn about the differences between Harvard and a community college and so on.

Here's some very basic information to get you started. After five minutes, you'll know the difference between different types of colleges.

Here's some more basic information.


This information is from the US Department of Education. It's old-ish, but it has more detail and nearly all of this stuff hasn't changed anyway (the only stuff that's really different now concerns costs). This set of pages has excellent information about different types of institution, different programs, recommendations for what to study in high school, etc. The really good thing about this site is that it lays it all out in a very easy way to follow. You do NOT want to get stuck somewhere clicking relentlessly and feeling like you're getting nowhere.

Finally, this site is for first-generation college students. Read it last, not first.

After reading Val's informative links one can read about unconventional options such as "virtual colleges", described in this op-ed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/opinion/my-valuable-cheap-college-degree.html
My Valuable, Cheap College Degree
By ARTHUR C. BROOKS
New York Times
January 31, 2013

^^^ This really what I was aiming for. DD is what I would call the research type who would thrive best in smaller classes with open/interactive student led format.....although at this point I wouldn't be surprised if her organized/leadership qualities turned her to government.

When I said I didn't know the difference between Harvard and community, I was exaggerating a bit. I do understand the basics and am well informed as to our local central Florida options. We live within an hour of USF and UCF which will certainly be on her list to investigate. However, when it comes to the top schools, I am at a total loss as to what (other than money) makes them so special. I have been taking classes at our local community college for a couple of years. And while I love the educational experience, I am fairly confidant that 1/2 - 3/4 of these kids barely graduated high school. We live in very low performing county. DD who is much brighter than I, would be miserable there.

I ordered the Fiske Guide and found the CollegeBoard website to be great. Thanks! I like the sorting tool options: it will give her a place to start narrowing down the field a bit. I really like how CB has the option to sort by (% of need met). I was surprised to see that most expensive/prestigious colleges were the ones most likely to cover the tuition for those of us on the lower end of the income field. << This makes mama relax.

In anycase, thanks for all the input. I'm sure we'll back with more questions and worries when things get more serious.

Not wanting to add to your concerns... but relaxing about having your tuition covered because your kid is high performing and you are low income would not be a good idea. Here is a link to a very long discussion out here a few weeks ago that included some discussion of this.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/162887/1.html

... but-- if you are truly LOW income, there are programs which are intended for children like yours.

QuestBridge


My daughter knows (well) not one, but TWO QuestBridge scholars who are/will soon be attending Ivies.

One of the similarities between Harvard and the community college down the street is that if you're on the lower end of the income field, then they cost about the same.

That was an interesting/scary post. However, I was merely reflecting on the idea that IF she wanted to and IF was able to get into the top $$$ that she wouldn't be required to turn them down because of my financial limitations.

One of the reasons that her middle school encourages students to start feeling out their college desires is so that they can begin to taylor their social/academic/volunteer life to align with their goal. Those with higher goals will have more tailoring. We have one of the top rigorous IB high-schools (2nd according Newsweek's last list) in our county. Her school encourages the serious high achievers with the higher college goals to align themselves to feed into it. I'm not pressuring her to take that path. If she's happy with a relaxed middle/high school experience before heading into the local university, than so am I. However, I want to make sure that she has all the information she needs to make an informed decision as to how she want to draw out her pre-highschool plan. We'll save the getting in stress for later.....

Thanks for the link. We make around 45k a year for a family of 4. Which may or may not qualify. In anycase I'll keep the link around for future reference or sharing.

Okay, well...my advice would be that when you ask people to spend some time helping you, be sure you ask the precise question you want answered. Personally, I would feel bad if I had led others to waste their time finding information I didn't need but said I did. In this case, it isn't a big deal, but TBH, I don't quite trust you now when you say that you're "at a total loss" about what makes the top schools so special, given your first message's claims about cluelessness.

Also, you may want to try formulating your question and just typing it into a search box.

^^ I thought I was being specific with my request for information. Sorry if I was unclear. By "difference between" I meant from the angle of how instructional format and freshman opportunities etc. would vary. and compared to most on this site, I am clueless.

I give the OP credit for starting her D thinking about this in middle school at all (okay, so the school is prodding her, but that is okay!). It is an "interesting/scary" topic, as you said in your comment about the other thread. Good luck!

I do, too, intparent. I don't think that most schools are doing enough early enough with career/college counseling/guidance.

Currently, counseling anyone away from prestigious careers, and towards ones that are more consistent with their academic achievement, is politically difficult, especially before high school. If career counseling is not done in a realistic manner, it may be better not to do it at all.

Here's a book with a lot of really interesting ideas surrounding college. Much of it is very well-suited to HG+ kids.

The New Global Student

It does, however, ignore the reality that in some fields/disciplines, such a creative approach isn't entirely feasible. (mostly STEM fields aside from medicine/healt-related)

It also doesn't have a great set of instructions for how to do this as a PARENT who needs to work as an expat in a non-virtual environment.

It is intriguing, however.

I don't know how the QuestBridge awards actually break down in terms of who they give their money to, but here's what their website says:


It's interesting how they define low-income. 60K for a family of 4 isn't really low-income in the US. Among applicants to elite colleges, I'm sure it's down there--but I think median income for a family of 4 is about 50-55K.

I don't know what the "long-term economic hardship" part means, but I assume they're saying that you're not going to get this if you got laid off this year but live in a 700K house and have two new SUVs in the garage.

50-50k in a place like NY city would be very low income.

Off topic: interesting article as to what is the middle class.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/04/14/middle-class-hard-define/2080565/

"A 2008 Pew poll found that 40% of Americans with incomes below $20,000 – roughly equivalent to the poverty line – described themselves as middle class. -third with incomes above $150,000 said they're middle class, too."

Yes--the cost of living in your area matters. Still, it doesn't take away from the reality that 60K isn't really "low income," speaking statistically. However, maybe 60K is their very upper limit and most of their kids are in 20K families.

Re that article--yup, everybody thinks they're middle class. It's the American way. It's also why I'm a stickler for pointing out that no, 150K is NOT "middle income" or "average."

What Z-score range (how many standard deviations) does your definition of "average" comprise? Is it -1 to 1, -2 to 2, or -0.1 to -0.1? If a gifted program has a an IQ cutoff of 130, and special ed has an IQ cutoff of 70, then students with IQs from 70 to 130, a Z-score range of -2 to 2, are effectively being considered "average" or "normal".

Yes, an income of 150K is above average, but if you group households into the categories of poor, middle class, and rich,
where you set the thresholds is a matter of judgement. How the $150K is earned should also be considered. I consider a
couple each earning $75K more "middle class" than one where the husband earns $150K and the wife can afford to be a SAHM.

Your argument seems a bit silly to me. Yes, if we want to make an extremely broad range like that, then we could consider incomes from 30K to 200K "average."

I'm talking about people who conflate median and average and truly think 100K+ is median income for a typical family. 150K is nowhere near the national median income for a family of 4.

In a certain environment, you can get into this mindset of "Well, we make 125K and we can barely make the payments on the house and the cars and the this and the that, so we're obviously middle-class. We're just getting by." There is little awareness of other realities.

I suspect that people who earn 150K and call themselves middle class do so because they compare themselves with very wealthy people. I also suspect that many or most think of themselves as UPPER middle class.

Yes, $150K affords a nice standard of living, but it's likely that nearly everyone in this income category depends on a paycheck, unlike the very wealthy. Also, people in the former group with two kids still have to budget their money, can only dream of flying in a private jet and can't even afford to fly the family in business or first class and have basically no extra sway over the political process. So they aren't truly "rich."

But they can afford to buy a house, can put the whole family on a jet in economy class and maybe afford private school tuition on a monthly payment plan. So this makes them upper middle class.

There is a political subtext to the definition of "middle class". Some politicians run on class warfare and say the rich are not paying their fair share (without defining what a fair share would be -- it's always more). So designating someone as "rich" means that you can gouge them. The president seems to use $250K for a married couple as the benchmark for "rich". Another phrase the class warriors love is "working class", although upper-income households tend to have more adults actually working full-time than lower-income households do.

My wife and I work full time and expect our children to do so when they grow up. Although our income is a multiple of the family median, we want our children to have a middle class mentality. They think going to Denny's is a real treat. So far, so good.

You mean Denny's (or the local equivalent) isn't a real treat in some people's minds?

I also find it amusing that some white-collar professions have lower salaries than some "blue-collar" ones at this point in time. Compare an elementary classroom teacher with, say, a plumber or electrician. The teacher, in many states, makes far less than the median, and the tradesperson often makes double or even triple the teacher's salary.

Funny world, the "middle" class and "working" class.

I am definitely a member of the working class, more's the pity.

Hmm. Mine think of it as the least worst option when on the road (ice cream with bacon in it?!? )

Seriously, I agree that $250K isn't "rich" by the standards of heavily taxing people. This is because taking, say, $25,000 from people at that income level will affect their standard of living. Alternatively, taking $4 million from someone who has $40 million will not affect his ability to not work and fly private between his 5 nice houses on 5 continents. And a large chunk of the wealth in this country is concentrated not in the 1%, but in the way-past-1% crowd.

I totally get that $250K annually makes for a very good living and is a very long way from the mean. And I know that there are people earning that much who might not understand how hard it is for the poor. But I think that the real problem in this respect is the hyper-wealthy and what they pay their employees here and overseas.

But there's also another side to the argument about not getting it though: people who think that someone who earns $250K per year is rich don't get what rich truly is. Truly wealthy people live in a world that is very, very different from even the low-end one-percenters earning $500K per year. This is not simply about standard of living. It's about influencing policy, creating problems that damage the economy on a large scale, and getting away with stuff that other people wouldn't even get away with in their dreams.

I'm not shouting that all wealthy people are evil! I'm just pointing out that some of them are very self-interested and you don't need many to be that way to create some serious large-scale problems.

Eh. I don't know. I think 250K is very rich, globally speaking. I agree with you that there is, of course, an entire other class of wealth (several other entire classes, really) with a very different kind of power. However, numerically speaking, there are a lot more of the 250Kers.

I agree that 100K is probably actually upper-middle class in the US. No one seems very eager to claim that moniker.

How unfortunate that there is no snappy phrase that perfectly encapsulates not only an unshakable belief in one's own Divine Right to Rule, but also in the power/prestige to make one's will a reality on a regular basis.

Napoleonic? (Or as my DH put it-- how unbelievably egotistical do you have to BE to put your first initial on all of your civic projects, anyway??)

There is "rich" and then there is that level beyond what mere financial security can purchase.

~Unimportant Peon



PS. Perhaps they are Masters of the Universe, these folks? Beyond what mere {fastidious nose-wrinkling} MONEY... can buy, of course. Anyone can make money. It takes a special person to be a Master.

You might end up pleasantly surprised, too. My best friend from college does this for Japanese for a few school districts in her fairly rural area. She does a few classes a week at a few different schools, cobbling together about a 3/4 time position. And in her case I think the students are getting a great teacher with strong skills. I think there are a fair number of under-employed foreign language majors floating around, and the school might find someone decent. So as you said a few posts ago, at least give it a try.

I am not sure about the SAT II subject test, but like the CLEP I would worry that a student (even a bright one) completing only their 2nd year may not score very well on it. My kids didn't take any language tests, but the College Board suggests 3-4 years of high school German preparation. Although she might as well give it a shot in the spring for placement purposes (after college admissions are all done).