My older son is PG, and I never really thought my younger son was highly gifted---though he clearly has *incredible* spatial abilities. There's no doubt that he's a visual-spatial learner. The problem is, I am starting to think that perhaps he can't learn through more traditional auditory methods. At what point does an extreme preference in learning style cross the line into being a learning problem? He's only 4, and we homeschool. What are some red flags for learning disability or 2e that I can be watching for?
Stacey, what are you seeing that concerns you?
DeeDee
There are probably as many red flags (or low-level-orange rather than blazing red!) flags for so many different problems that posting a random list is just going to be confusing rather than giving clarity.
Can you tell us, as DeeDee asked, what you're seeing that you are concerned about? What are you seeing that appears to be an "extreme preference in learning style?" What are the signs you see that make you think he isn't an auditory learner?
polarbear
I can only speak of what I personally see in my 9 yo dd who is dyslexic, dyspraxic and possibly has dyscalculia. I had suspicions of a LD from the time she was in kindergarten and her teacher at the time also had concerns. The not so obvious things are that her performance can fluctuate from day to day or even hour to hour. She also fatigues very easily and her short term memory is poor yet has an unbelievable long term memory.
I didn't want to write a novel in my first post, but I'll try to succinctly provide some details. Ds has always displayed incredible spatial abilities. At age 2, he could tell me which way to turn to get places---even when we were 15 miles from home, taking a different exit from the interstate, and coming from a completely different direction. It's like he carries a map around in his brain. He was never taught right or left--just figured it out at age 2. I honestly don't recall teaching him to recognize letters or numbers but surely we did a few times--anyway, he seemed to know them. His sight recognition of words is spot-on. He never forgets the visual image of a word--but if it's in a different font or capitalized--he doesn't recognize it as the same word. He started doing 500 piece puzzles around the time of his 4th birthday, and he's much better at them than I am. He can build lego creations and set up elaborate train tracks that are far more advanced than his age. He just knows how things work and fit together. His brain seems to be wired for visual learning.
On the other hand, his speech development has been slow, sometimes falling off the range of what is "normal." His articulation is not great for someone his age, but he has made progress. He still has to completely concentrate on what he's trying to say or he can't spit the words out. Language is just difficult for him--his sentences are very immature and often has words in the wrong order so we have to try to interpret what he's saying.
It's like he sees something, and he instantly "gets" it. But for 9 months, we've been singing a little song about the days of the week (he loves music). After doing this daily for 9 months, he finally got it. A couple days "off" from singing it, and he has no idea what the song is or the names for the days of the week. Eventually I'd like him to learn our address. So for the past month, we've been saying our street name. Multiple times a day, we say the name out loud (there's construction going on, so plenty of opportunity to throw it in when a cement truck or something grabs his attention). After a month, he's still clueless about our street name. He's listening--even repeating/singing aloud--but it's like anything auditory goes in one ear and out the other.
There's no doubt that he has a visual spatial learning style, but how do I know whether he has a problem with auditory learning? He's just 4.5 years old, so I'm not sure if part of it is maturity too. Thoughts?
Hi Staceyshoe,
I can't tell you what's going on with your son, since I'm not a clinician, but I can tell you some stuff about what is "normal" (I'm a professor of cognitive psychology). Neurotypical kids are language sponges. They often learn new words from a single exposure (a process called "fast mapping"). Their sentence structure is still relatively simple at age 4, but they generally get it right. Even in the two-word stage (usually age 2 or younger) they use appropriate word order, constructing two-word phrases such as subject-verb, verb-object, or adjective-noun.
So what you're describing -- great difficulty acquiring verbal information, incorrect word order -- I would say are signs that warrant seeking a professional opinion. You already know what your son's areas of strength and weakness are, and a professional can help you to get the resources you need to help him thrive and be successful with the type of brain he has.
I would say that an inability to learn from auditory information at age 4 is likely to involve some sort of disability. Maybe a preference for learning things visually is to some extent compensatory in your son. I'd definitely get him tested.
Out of curiosity, did he have sinus/adenoid/tonsil issues that could have impacted his hearing early on?
Are the speech struggles receptive speech or just expressive speech? What kind of speech and hearing eval has he had?
Can he follow single-step instructions? 2 step instructions?
Thank you both. My gut feeling is that the discrepancy between his visual learning ability and auditory learning ability is just huge--and probably indicative of something. I appreciate you confirming that I'm not out in left field. (Our pediatrician hasn't been concerned about speech development, even when ds dropped below normal ranges.) His hearing is actually very acute. No history of ear infections, and he sailed through a hearing test at his check-up this week. There are certain sounds that he just doesn't pronounce, and I'm not sure if it's because he can't get his mouth to form the sounds or if he can't tell that the sound he's making is different.
What kind of testing would I need to seek and what would be the best "next step"? Should I contact our school district? Or should I seek an evaluation from a psychologist who specializes in 2e issues? (I'm starting to realize that I've probably underestimated ds's intelligence because of his speech issues.)
I can speak from my personal experience as a farout visual-spatial learner. With the right focus and some introspection, there are a lot of coping strategies that can bring the v/s strengths to prop up auditory weaknesses. Some deficits remain, but I'm indifferent to them (e.g. I can only remember all the words to one song.)
You might experiment with some typical v/s coping strategies like encouraging your son to doodle while listening to instructions. Also watching a speaker can be very distracting, music and sounds can make reading harder, and other things.
Are the speech struggles receptive speech or just expressive speech? What kind of speech and hearing eval has he had?
Can he follow single-step instructions? 2 step instructions?
He's never had a speech eval, and his hearing tests fine. I think his speech issues are just expressive, although he just doesn't retain info he hears. I think he understands well in that moment though.
He does follow single-step instructions well. I've noticed that he will grab on to one word or concept if I give more complex instructions. If I say, "Go downstairs and get the book that is beside your pencil box." He might come back with the pencil box. He just grabs hold of that one word or concept and runs with it. I've been chalking this up to immaturity and being more developmentally typical than his brother was---but maybe he's not able to retain all those words in his mind. I might experiment with this or have him repeat things back to me and see what I learn from that.
I can speak from my personal experience as a farout visual-spatial learner. With the right focus and some introspection, there are a lot of coping strategies that can bring the v/s strengths to prop up auditory weaknesses. Some deficits remain, but I'm indifferent to them (e.g. I can only remember all the words to one song.)
You might experiment with some typical v/s coping strategies like encouraging your son to doodle while listening to instructions. Also watching a speaker can be very distracting, music and sounds can make reading harder, and other things.
Where can I learn more about this? Is there a website or a book that will teach me more about typical vs coping strategies for VSL?
I'll poke around, I tend to remember how things work, not always good at where they came from. But I've caught up on a lot of more current research from reading the Eide Neurolearning Blog (
http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com ), but don't have a specific post there to point towards.
I've seen a lot of sites talking about visual-spatial learning that don't really get it and think it is just about presentation. It is as much about system and conceptual thinking.
Two very strong visual learners here (me and ds6). We went through a phase where we thought ds was delayed in auditory processing around 2.5-3.5; he just didn't seem to "get it", as you said. We had 3 speech evals done (at different places from 2-4 years) and audiologist-performed hearing eval - all were 'normal'. DS did not seem to have trouble with word recall and speech fluidity, however. He DID stutter for about a year (they said his brain just worked a lot faster than his tongue).
I clearly remember trying to teach DS his address and home phone number. I made up a little song for our phone number - but it never really stuck (although somehow it sunk into his long-term memory because he'll sing it NOW...2 years later). I finally wrote is name, address, and phone number in large print and put it on the fridge. I never reviewed it with him, but he would read it outloud randomly. After about 2 weeks he had it down.
I,personally, remember things more easily to songs and rhymes, but ds doesn't seem to take to this approach as easily. I think I'm actually a more visual-dependent learner than he is. I can't remember names if I don't see them written, and don't even waste your breath telling me auditory directions to a new place. It means nothing to me. Draw me a map, write the directions down - no problem. The best way I can explain it is that I think in pictures...the clearer the picture, the easier I can access the information.
My grades went up considerably when I got into middle school, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I started taking notes. Taking notes completely solidifies what I'm hearing. I'm really, really good at listening whilst still filtering the information I need to write down - and that is why I think I was able to succeed in college.
It AMAZES me the people who have never had to take a note in class. It also blows me away when my dh, after seeing a movie just once, can quote specific lines verbatim.
Anyway, I suggest that you go ahead and do a good hearing test (with an audiologist) since any evaluator will want to have that information. Beyond that, maybe a private speech therapist would be a good starting point (they're usually covered by insurance). A speech therapist may not be the only stop as you figure things out...but might give you a general direction.
Also...thanks for the references, Zen Scanner. I wish I had known more about visual/spacial learning when I was younger. I spent a fair amount of time feeling 'dumb' because some things just didn't sink in (like I could not tell time FOREVER...it was humiliating).
BTW...may be incidental, but I am a lefty and so is my ds.
Are the speech struggles receptive speech or just expressive speech? What kind of speech and hearing eval has he had?
Can he follow single-step instructions? 2 step instructions?
He's never had a speech eval, and his hearing tests fine. I think his speech issues are just expressive, although he just doesn't retain info he hears. I think he understands well in that moment though.
He does follow single-step instructions well. I've noticed that he will grab on to one word or concept if I give more complex instructions. If I say, "Go downstairs and get the book that is beside your pencil box." He might come back with the pencil box. He just grabs hold of that one word or concept and runs with it. I've been chalking this up to immaturity and being more developmentally typical than his brother was---but maybe he's not able to retain all those words in his mind. I might experiment with this or have him repeat things back to me and see what I learn from that.
Go get a speech eval. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. By 4, he should be able to understand that slightly more complicated example and execute correctly.
If he cannot understand spoken speech, it makes perfect sense that he'd struggle to learn from it.
I have found that there are places that will get you in for the initial evaluation very quickly, and others that give the same evaluation have a mile-long list. With a 4 year old, you don't want to wait 6 months. Get a referral, and also get on the phone. These are standardized tests that are relatively easy to administer, and I don't worry about how giftedness affect the interpretation of the results.
Wow... he sounds so much like my DS8. Yours has more advanced visual-spacial, but then again, none of us (in my family, I mean) have ever tested as PG (just HG).
Anyway, my DS8 has receptive and expressive language disorder as one of his diagnoses (which are still ongoing, lol! sigh)
When I help him with reading, although we do work on phonics, I encourage him to use his strength which is memorizing the words. He's not quite as extreme as your son in that he can change font and even read cursive (he's older though), but he MUCH prefers to memorize rather than decode.
Btw, my son has had FIVE normal (and properly done) hearing tests. He was prone to ear infections when he was younger, which thankfully haven't damaged his hearing. He was asymptomatic many times, so I don't know how many ear infections he had during those important early years of speech acquisition.
He tested negative for CAPD (central auditory processing disorder) but does have a significant binaural integration imbalance (his brain prefers his right ear).
As to the maturity aspect: when I initially wanted to pursue CAPD testing I was told we'd have to wait until DS was 8 because... drum roll... auditory processing can sometimes be delayed in normal development, and usually catches up at about 8. Our audiologist thinks that DS did in fact have an audio processing delay and has now caught up enough to not meet the criteria for the disorder. Meanwhile the binaural integration issue should even out by the time he's 12ish.
Meanwhile... interestingly... he's making new progress with oral language in school (he's in French Immersion). He has lagged behind his classmates in French since about grade 1 (in KG they were all new to it and DS's language issues hadn't presented yet).
The other day I just checked the on-line (school database) copy of his IEP progress report and his "oral" and "decoding" (i.e. phonics) marks had been increased... to "meeting expectations" (grade level). This is the first time he's ever been at grade level in these two categories. He had just turned eight a week or so prior to the report being changed. Interesting timing!!
Oh... I just thought of something else... the other day on the way home from school I heard my DS8 talk to his sister (9) in a way that I've never heard before. He was easily and fluently able to express his thoughts. I'm so used to speaking for him because of his history of struggle that it literally shocked me when the words I had on the tip of my tongue came out of his mouth instead. It was a really eye opening moment.
(Background: a year ago he tested in the 0.5th percentile for receptive language and 12th percentile for expressive). This last year has represented incredible growth for his language skills.
I should also add that he's had time at school with a speech language pathologist. My personal opinion is that French Immersion, while suppressing his achievement, has helped by stimulating the language areas of his brain.
Go get a speech eval. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. By 4, he should be able to understand that slightly more complicated example and execute correctly.
If he cannot understand spoken speech, it makes perfect sense that he'd struggle to learn from it.
I have found that there are places that will get you in for the initial evaluation very quickly, and others that give the same evaluation have a mile-long list. With a 4 year old, you don't want to wait 6 months. Get a referral, and also get on the phone. These are standardized tests that are relatively easy to administer, and I don't worry about how giftedness affect the interpretation of the results.
Agreed... 100%. Don't wait. There are things you can do as a parent that are as simple as modifying the way you speak to him (make sure he's looking at you, speak v-e-r-y c-l-e-a-r-l-y, etc). With my DS I researched CAPD and treated him like he had it, and it's made a big difference. It's not about his ears, it's about his brain being able to take in language and develop linguistically.
I missed the age of your child. However, the early steps program offers free evaluations and free therapy. Universities with PHD programs over every good evaluations with very low cost. We addressed my son's speech issues immediately, waiting list were long, etc.. but it's very important to address early. All speech should be inplace by 7. Our son is 7 with 4 correctable errors and we are still in speech. The school system, should also be offering services at the age of 3-5 at home if you call them. I am sure this is different geographically, but it's worth a try. If I would have listened to people who told me not to worry about his speech, we would not have made this much progress.
CCN...
I soooooo believe what your audiologist said about audiotory processing - it is exactly what I saw with my ds. It was like he developed in reverse: SUPER strong visually (knew shapes, letters, signs, numbers by 2) but couldn't follow complex directions until more like 4. I see the opposite with my dd now. She has been able follow multi-step directions since she was tiny (could go get me her blanket and shoes upon request when she was 11 months old) but doesn't have the early ability to decode symbols the way my ds did.
Brains are fascinating.
I would suggest not looking at your DS in terms of learning styles (some studies have debunked the very existence of learning styles anyway)-- and instead look at what skills he has and what is missing, compared to peers. At a young age, a person should not *only* learn one way-- he should be able to take in and process information coming a variety of ways, and engage with others a variety of ways. If there is a skill or skill set missing, it is better to identify that ASAP.
You've gotten good suggestions here about speech and hearing evals; I would also talk to the pediatrician. If you think something is off, you are probably right; you may need to find the right professional to help you sort through developmental milestones.
Your school district is legally obligated to evaluate your child in all areas of suspected disability (even though he is homeschooled). That may be valuable and save you a lot of money; but a private evaluation is likely to be more comprehensive.
DeeDee
You're such an asset to the board, DeeDee. Irreplaceable, IMHO.
CCN...
I soooooo believe what your audiologist said about audiotory processing - it is exactly what I saw with my ds. It was like he developed in reverse: SUPER strong visually (knew shapes, letters, signs, numbers by 2) but couldn't follow complex directions until more like 4.
This was my DS too... except he lagged even further behind with the complex directions. He's finally pulled that together now
Aren't they? I could talk/read about this stuff for hours
I agree. Thank you all for your feedback and sharing your stories. I'm sure I will be re-reading this thread again and again as I absorb this information!
You're such an asset to the board, DeeDee. Irreplaceable, IMHO.
Hear!!!! Hear!!!! I second (and would third and fourth this if I could.)
If there is a pediatric neuropsych in your area, it might be worth asking for a referral so that you have a better grasp very early on of what is happening with your child. Sometimes we second-guess ourselves because our child is so obviously advanced in one area of development that we fear we're expecting too much in others. But trust your gut. You know when alarm bells are quietly ringing that something isn't quite right.
You're such an asset to the board, DeeDee. Irreplaceable, IMHO.
Hear!!!! Hear!!!! I second (and would third and fourth this if I could.)
Indeed. There are so many on here who have amazing wealth of knowledge, and it's quite something how willingly you all share with others of your own time and understanding.
You're such an asset to the board, DeeDee. Irreplaceable, IMHO.
Hear!!!! Hear!!!! I second (and would third and fourth this if I could.)
Aw. You guys are sweet.
I am paying a debt forward: when my DS was first diagnosed with AS, some very smart and kind parents bootstrapped me into the knowledge I urgently needed. Life-changing help, and I'll owe them forever.
DeeDee
Aw. You guys are sweet.
I am paying a debt forward: when my DS was first diagnosed with AS, some very smart and kind parents bootstrapped me into the knowledge I urgently needed. Life-changing help, and I'll owe them forever.
DeeDee
I totally agree with the nomination for DeeDee as board treasure - but also with her attitude which is so emblematic of this board - pay it forward- iit is so awesome that she experienced and was helpfed and fhen in turn is helping this is why this board works and is such a lifeline for a subset of parents.
DeHe