I don't know what to think about this or what to call it. PG-DS10 works hard in school and enjoys his days, friends, learning, etc. He does his HW, sometimes not in the mood but gets it done even if he procrastinates. If it's a writing or research assignment I know there will be much more whining, drama, stress, anxiety, procrastinating and crankiness. But those projects get done too. I've become more flexible about when and how he gets it done even though everyone says he needs more structure.

What he really hates are the reports and presentations. He doesn't mind giving oral reports and he is good at presenting but he just doesn't like doing any school work outside of school that takes any time and effort. (unless it's math or science fair) So, now he dragged out this Quarter long project, he did a little here and there but only at my prodding & hand-holding. He finished it this morning (the day it's due!), got up an hour early and knocked it out. Did he put any real effort into it? No, not really. Will he get an A on it? Probably, maybe a B if she's a really tough grader. Is this going to reinforce his slacker approach? Probably. Did he learn anything from the project other than following directions? No.

What do you do with a kid that doesn't want to do this stuff? He will build a complex world in Minecraft all night but ask for 5 measly sentences on the natural resources of Kentucky and he's ready to quit school!

Will it get better down the road? MG/HG-DD8 is so much more motivated to do her work and loves doing projects even though she has to work harder and doesn't get the high grades DS gets.

I'm mostly venting here but if you've BTDT I'd appreciate some input!

Sounds VERY familiar. I can identify. You've pretty much described me as a child, and the bad news is, I'm still pretty much this way as an adult. I should probably be working on something else right now as I type this.

If you focus on the process, then things are clearly not working out. But if you focus on the results, then there is no problem, because the work is ultimately getting done, and the grades are good. And that's where the disconnect is: you're focused on the process, and he's focused on the results. No matter what you tell him about how he's doing his homework, he can always dismiss those comments with the latest grade.

Meanwhile, boredom is torture for kids like this, so when it's a choice between working on a boring assignment or doing something fun, fun wins every time.

I can make some suggestions, but honestly, I'd say this is a personality thing, and he's probably never going to change this about himself, unless he decides he has to. The best that can be done is to come up with some accommodations to deal with his boredom:

- Emphasize how getting the assignment done immediately gets it out of the way so he can move on to fun things worry-free, and that you won't have to bug him about it.

- Give him some distractions while he works. It sounds counter-intuitive, but if he can distract himself from the boredom for moments at a time, it'll allow him to be less tortured while doing the work, which will in turn help him stay focused and on task. Sure, it'll take him longer this way, but since he already works very quickly, it's not really an issue. Music has always worked best for me.

We have found that using Noodle Tools for research papers REALLY increases our son's enthusiasm (not to mention his organization).

It was like pulling teeth to get him to do research before. He's still not super-excited about it when it's not a topic of interest, but Noodle allows him to set small task goals and do just a bit each day, without all that (gasp!) pesty writing by hand stuff. The proctrastination is mostly gone, as long as I help him with the plan (say to write 5 notes per day) up front.

I'm not affiliated with this product in any way, but truly love it. I wish I was affiliated with it!

This is why he resists these things. If this was a project that he knew he could do in a few hours without any real thought or effort and still get an "A", and he knew that he wasn't going to learn anything new from doing it, honestly, why would he want to do more than get up early and knock it out the day it was due? If he had projects that really made him think or learn, and that would really take some *mental* effort (not just take up time), he might work harder - and then he might also learn *how* to work hard, and how to approach challenging problems, organize himself, and persist through difficulties. This project was supposed to take all quarter, and he did it in a day or two. The challenge level is a huge mismatch. Is there any chance that your DS could have some assignments in an area of interest where he was called on to do something that would really stretch his brain? He might be more willing to invest time and effort in assignments that actually required them.

This describes both myself and DS10. If a project catches his interest (happens rarely) he will put a lot more effort into it but I still find he will not do all I know he can do.

I have his parent teacher conference today and this is one of the topics I wish to discuss.

When he feels challenged - and I mean that directly - for instance the teacher says "I doubt anyone in this class can do x." then you can be sure DS will take on that challenge and do it. Unfortunately this also rarely if ever happens. :sigh:

Breakaway

YES YES YES! This is exactly it. I think I would have greatly benefitted from having this experience of being stretched, organizing, persisting etc. earlier in life. The first time I remember feeling that way was when working on my history thesis in college.

I have found that even with topics that are not interesting to my son as envisioned by the teacher, if (and that's a big if) I can get my son to get it started and get some momentum going (and that's where breaking it into smaller chunks really helps)then he finds a way to make it interesting. For example, he was dreading starting some research recently on art and perspective but once he got past a certain point, the lights came on and then I found myself saying things like "no more for tonight -- you have to go to bed."

I think almost any topic can be interesting to a child if you help them keep their mind open to it, but you may have to help them find that connection and point of interest initially.

Things that I might do are provide some thoughtful questions or tie-ins to another area of interest and maybe supplementary reading (links to cool websites). It's just that when it's initially described, it sounds booooring... But, if you can find a way to get past that with your child, you just might be able to get a more thoughtful and in-depth approach. Eventually. That's the hope I have for my son, anyway... that eventually, he'll say "wow, this sounds so boring -- how can I make it more interesting and make it my own so that I am motivated to work on it?" And hopefully, I am helping him learn ways to do this...

For us, that approach has helped with all homework and using appropriate technology to scale back all of the tedious parts of research has helped as well. It's definitely not perfect, but we've been thinking that way for a year, and I see a huge difference.

Edited to add that of course this approach requires having a teacher who allows more complicated and in-depth projects... not narrowly defined projects. Ours does, with approval of course.

this was for reading class. they read a book each quarter then have to do a powerpoint presentation, a written critique and creative part (like a diorama or anything really - he could have done an interpretive dance, whittled a figurine, done a puppet show, made a costume, anything lol) So, i tried to help him get organized with the powerpoint, so he could lay it out and do a few slides each night. the written part was short but he wanted no part of it and left that for last minute, the creative part was of no interest to him. he chose to do a diorama and he came up with a creative idea and he gave it one sitting 2 weeks ago, got a good start then wouldn't touch it again. He did a good of finishing up the powerpoint last night then got up early and finished the written part & diorama. I can;t really complain. I am just kind of confused :|

Honestly, he liked the book and has no issue with presenting in front of a group. He's very good at that actually. he knows how to use powerpoint better than me. he has great comprehension, and a high reading level. The diorama came out great. i felt the written part was lacking but he met the requirements on the rubric and it was not weighted very heavily anyway (he said why bother if it's only worth 10 points!) the only thing you can get out of these projects, imho, is learning the process of doing these types of projects so if you don't learn time management and blow it off what's the point?

he has done this on science projects and when he was younger we could do this more on other subjects but as he is getting older it's all "why do i have to do this"

as far as more in-depth work, etc. he does not want MORE work, he wants less work at home since he says he learned it in class already. i agree, HW is a drag! and I don't think he needs it. I think my DD needs it to reinforce what she is doing in school but he doesn't. So, what can you do? Anyone ever have a psych. write a HW exemption? it really does cause stress and anxiety! lol

me and you both, dude! i guess that's why I have wanted to teach the skills early on and keep them motivated but i guess if it's just nature vs nurture there isn't much I can do about it!

I'd say that there's a role for both here... it's his nature to be interested in doing the things that interest him and eager to blow off the rest, but you can nurture him by helping him find ways to deal with doing the boring stuff. Because ultimately, we all find ourselves doing things we'd rather not be doing, so these coping mechanisms will be very important for him later in life.

I still have an mp3 player here at my desk for when things get really tedious. Also, I find myself coping for my procrastination professionally by setting myself deadlines. So if someone asks me to do something and there's no timetable for getting it done, I'll voluntarily promise that person they'll have it by a certain time. Having that deadline serves me as a motivation.

Home is a whole other world, though. Don't get my wife started on how long it took me to finish repainting my daughter's room.

Oh, I totally agree. Homework should not be done just for homework's sake. All of our homework is to extend the school day -- not to reinforce. For example, they move through their AoPS more quickly by assigning some work to do on that at home... and the quicker pace is better for him, so that's fine.

I think from your details it sounds like he simply didn't need all of the time given to do what was required and would rather pursue other stuff. I think that is fine, too. That happens sometimes and that is part of learning to make decisions about where to focus time. Also, sounds like the work is way too easy for him. So...if you want him to work more to his full potential, looks like you might have to have the teacher increase expectations in addition to finding a topic of interest.

I was talking more about research projects (research followed by MLA style reports) and the open-ended nature of those allows for whatever complexity a child is ready for. Also, we are very, very fortunate to have a teacher who gives the students a ton of choice -- they probably had 50 different possible projects to choose from for this block -- with the capper being - If you don't like any of these you can suggest your own. My son would not want to do a diorama either.

As for the "why" question. I got that all the time when he wasn't challenged enough. But we're grade accelerated one year and subject accelerated 3 or 4 more years on top and those questions have mostly stopped. It did come up a lot at the beginning of the year with Spanish, because he couldn't figure out a good reason for knowing Spanish.. but that was something we were able to give him with real reasons for why it would be good and he's now doing well enough at least to meet requirements for an A. Not necessarily doing his best, but good enough. He's not working hard at it, but that's okay, because he's working his butt off in other areas.

Good luck!

Well, he is grade accelerated and has a 3 yr subject acceleration for math. Nothing has ever been hard. For him "hard" means taking more than 5 minutes to do HW, then it's "OMG I have SOOOO much work to do!" that's why I worry. I don't know if an additional grade skip would help, then there would just be more work, no?

Does he do any programming (forgive my ignorance, I am not sure what Minecraft entails)? Maybe that would be a good thing to work into the projects in addition to the Minecraft?

Well I would like to add to this and maybe get some advice for a middle schooler. My DS is in 6th grade and no matter how much we have fought we have gotten nothing extra for him except the normal G&T program and a bit of accelerated work here and there since K. He is now in the Accelerated Math program in the Middle School but it still isn't enough - he thinks it is as he might have to "think" about a problem. But in his other classes he is so slack. He does just enough to get by and complains that I just want him to be perfect if I give him a hard time about not doing better. Plus his social life has taken over all of his thoughts (I'm sure everyone remembers middle school and not wanting to be smart anymore). I've already been through the experiences you all are talking about but this is a whole new level. ANY thoughts would help. We actually went to the Johns Hopkins CTY award ceremonies this weekend and they had two wonderful and inspiring speakers and I thought this might give him a little perspective. His teacher also attended and spoke to him for awhile to help with our concerns. However, it was all short lived . I can't take the fighting anymore as it is affecting our relationship.

Jules- that sounds so much like what I went through in MS & HS. I am so sorry. I know how painful it is for all involved.

I can give you a little insight into exactly what I was thinking when I was around that age -- though it may have absolutely nothing to do with what your son is going through.

I remember making a conscious decision to concentrate on the social stuff because I had felt lonely and isolated for too long and in my mind, being smart and doing well in school were mutually exclusive to being liked and having friends. I really believed it was one or the other and I decided to choose friends because I thought that there was no way I would have a happy life without friends. I was doing the best I knew how to do and trying to learn what I thought I needed to learn. I was also very focused on becoming independent from my parents. So their input had little sway.

Sorry, that is not a solution. But for me anyway, it was calculated and is was a lot of hard work to become socially "successful" and although I was aware I was not doing my best academically (and I had plenty of guilt about it) -- it was a choice, as a pre-teen and teen, that I felt I had to make.

I think mentors might have helped, and also, popular and high-achieving peers (in our school, the popular kids were the rebels who did not achieve -- but that of course went away in college). Exposure to a lot of social stuff outside of school (college talent groups, camps, etc) might have helped as well. My world was pretty small.

BTW, even though I gave my mother much grey hair, I eventually turned out okay.

Thank you Remalew for sharing your personal story - it is definitely my son . For so long I have been obsesessed with getting him the academics that he needs and deserves that I never really looked at how he was feeling about it. I'm just so sad to see him "waste" this wonderful gift that he has been given. I guess it's hard to explain this to an 11 year old who just wants to be friends with the right kids and to not be known as the "smart kid" - as he always has been (but never in a negative way). When we went to the CTY awards I think he looked around and thought I don't want to be one of these people as they seemed nerdy to him - and please I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just trying to relate what my son is feeling.

I think a mentor is an excellent idea and Remalew if you have an idea of what kind of mentor to find I will take any kind of advice. Also, how can I let him become independent while creating responsibility? The CTY awards were held at a College University and he thought it was one of the greatest places he had ever been to (it had an amazing baseball field). I told him he would need good grades to get in and he said no he wouldn't, he could just get in on baseball. For some reason his sense of reality is warped a lot of the time. But this might be a way to find some drive and passion - which is desperately missing.

I'm sure you turned out wonderfully and that your mother is more than proud of you. The few gray hairs that my DS and my 4 other children have given me are lovingly covered up by hair color . Thanks so much again.

If he likes baseball that much, perhaps a carefully chosen adult who also happened to be very successful academically to work on his baseball with him (and chat about how high school and college actually work -- I think you need to maintain a certain GPA to even play)? If he's worried about "cool" then yes, you will get pushback on anyone who's not considered cool. I think that some colleges even have baseball camps for kids his age -- maybe you could find something like that where academic success is a prerequisite?

Also, with my son, we have had far more success with very very smart male teachers. He doesn't bond the same with female teachers and if his teachers aren't perceived as smart by him (and there is a little jockeying on his part to "test" them)... things just don't go as well. I think if I had had a very smart and demanding female teacher...a go getter, who really pushed me, I would have responded better. They were too easy on me. Always. Too nurturing. They expected so little...

I think that age is very tough though because it's normal to stop looking to parents and start looking to peers. We will be there soon enough and I'm already dreading it.

Apparently, MS isn't only hard on the Middle Schooler -- it's hard on us parents too. I wish we could just skip over it altogether. Hopefully there are some people out there with some good advice!

I agree that in the MS years, the kids look less to parents and more to peers as their guides.

So... what are your options for placing him around high-achieving peers? If he's surrounded by the right people with the right attitude towards academics, there's an effect where they all push each other.

My son's favorite pastime at home is to build new maps for Halo, so when the literature teacher sent me an email that he was not putting forth his best effort, I let my son know that his time on X-Box would be directly tied to whether he brought his literature homework home for me to check. If he did an adequate job, he'd get more time on X-Box. If he "forgot" his homework at school or finished it at school and didn't bring it home, he'd have no time that day.

It's worked well. His work has improved dramatically and seemingly overnight.

So it might work for you to set aside 30 minutes that he needs to work on long-term projects that he hates to do. Once he's finished those 30 minutes and can show you what he's done, then he earns more time in Minecraft. Tie the things he hates to do to a reward that is valuable enough to suffer through it.

As adults, isn't that what we still do to get through things we don't want or like to do?

Unfortunately, the only time my son is around other high-achieving peers is when he is in his accelerated math class - and he is still just breezing by in the class. Otherwise, all the kids are all placed together (and I have tried for YEARS to get him more, but to no avail). I have taken away his phone, i-pod, the use of the computer, etc. but that still doesn't seem to work (and trust me because of our financial situation he would have none of these things without his grandparents). I am also a lot to blame when it comes to checking his work - I have 4 other children and between activities and homework life is just crazy. Plus last year his teachers told me to leave all the reponsibility up to him and he would have to suffer the consequences if he didn't put any effort in or would forget assignments (which happened all the time), etc.

I think the idea of a male teacher is a great idea and somebody actually mentioned this to me yesterday - and told me one of my son's teachers that he thought would be good fit. I also have an interview with Big Brothers and Big Sisters on Tuesday to see if we can find a mentor there. We have had a lot of family problems at home over the last few years and this may help with that and maybe help him also find his passion again.

Thanks so much for all of your input - and yes, wouldn't it be nice to skip over MS .

Jules -

Can I just chime in one more time to say that while the advice to leave all the responsibility to the child and they'll eventually care may work for some kids, for others it's total bull pucky. My middle child never cared and only did the minimal to ensure passing his classes all the way through high school. I finally gave up taking things away, because that didn't help, either. What I chose what to pick my battles and let go of the rest, because I could not make him care.

The up side? He's now a freshman in college, accepted in the college of Mechanical Engineering, and is carrying a 4.0. I can hardly believe that this kid is the same one who drove me nuts with his lack of motivation.

All I can say is that as a mom, I finally gave up on the level of contention that was hurting the relationship with my son, although it never stopped annoying me that he wouldn't try.

I have no idea if my course of action is the right one, but I do know for a fact that letting a kid carry the responsibility is not a sure thing.

Good luck - and hang in there.

kcab - great idea on looking up and showing my son what grades and classes college athletes need to maintain to play sports. Also, I'm hoping that my son will soon find another interest beside social activities soon that might use his brain . But until then I guess I'll just keep suggesting things. And yes, he definitely doesn't want to do any "extra" math since as he says he is already being "challenged". Funny when they think that is what being challenged is.

ABQMom - I am definitely at the point that I have to back off because it is ruining our relationship - and time is just going by way too fast for that to be the way he remembers our relationship. And your son gives me hope that it can all work out - even though I still have 7 more years of being totally crazy - what's the difference as my kids think I'm crazy anyways .

So thank you to everyone for your advice. Gotta love this forum!