I am new here. I have a 7 year old son, who we are in the process of getting tested, though there is no question that he is gifted - more a matter of how gifted.

My question is, can giftedness look like ADD and/or ODD in a classroom that doesn't differentiate enough to keep him engaged?

The long story: He started to read at 3, could do simple math not that much later, could read the clock and do simple fractions by 4. He now reads and comprehends pretty much anything you put in front of him, though he would still rather read picture books or encyclopedias (they have pictures but tell true things so they are the "best"). He understands advanced math concepts and does math in his head/verbally but hates to write it down (I can't tell if it is that the worksheets they give him are too easy/repetitive so he refuses to do them or if he really doesn't want to write as he doesn�t like to write either). Science is one of his biggest loves - when he gets into a topic I often have to go to the HS or college level to satisfy his curiosity. Like when he wanted to understand the immune system it wasn't good enough to tell him a general description of how the body fights disease, I had to go find a website that showed how cells reproduce and how the virus would take it over and then how the body fought it with all the technical terms and cell diagrams to go with it. Now he is finding history to be just as interesting and we have to deep dive every topic he finds fascinating.

As you can expect this is a problem in school. We started seeing some problems in preschool � more with other kids, they didn�t like that he could read and he felt bad about it so he tried to hide it. So we did a half day preK class half day preschool. The preK class was with kindergarteners and he studied with them since he was already ahead of them for the most part - already reading ect. The next year he did K in a K/1st split class with the same teacher and she had him work with the 1st graders and she knew he was still not challenged, her pretest for the 1st graders at the beginning of the year showed her he knew everything she was going to teach that year, she tried hard to find things he didn�t know but struggled to incorporate it in her classroom. The best days were days I would come to pick him up and she would say, �I found something he didn�t know!!� However, both years his behavior was horrible, he would throw fits and didn't want to do assignments, which we both understood a bit as he was still young and he was beyond what was being asked. She assured me it would get better with maturity and as his classes got harder.

So then he entered 1st grade, I didn�t want to try to advance him because socially he was still a bit awkward and his behavior in the classroom wasn�t good enough to move up. But I found a private school that was willing to take him on and find a way to challenge him. It didn�t go all that well. At first he was good. I think he was learning the routine and the kids and that was enough to keep him occupied. But as the year wore on he went downhill. By Thanksgiving he was acting out and being defiant. His teacher was sure she was challenging him but I knew she wasn�t. But I couldn�t prove it because he wouldn�t perform for her. He would only do what was expected of him, and often not even that. He has to be right so he hates working in front of people and the chance of being wrong, so reading out loud or doing math in front of the class were a strain on him (both common in the class) and he would either refuse or when pushed start yelling. He got to spend a lot of time in the Head of School�s office doing his work there (where he very happily did it and returned to class calmly). By the end of the school year he would cry most days when I picked him up, but he wanted to go back so he could play with his friends. His teacher is sure he has ADD and or ODD, but he doesn�t display these behaviors anywhere else, not even at the summer day camp he is currently at (both parents work full time). And the psychologist that I have taken him to has been unable to pinpoint anything. The assessment from the teacher and my assessment were so radically different that he had a hard time believing they were for the same kid.

So that brings me back to the question. Can his behavior be caused by being bored in class? If he were appropriately challenged could his behavior improve? I know the test will help and that I need to continue pursuing the psych visits � but have any of you experienced something like this? My gut reaction all along has been that he is bored out of his mind � could I be right?

Thank you for reading all of this and helping out. I am at wits end and I am already starting to stress out over school next year. My dream is to homeschool, but financially we can�t do that right now. In the mean time I have to figure out how to make a classroom work for him.

His behavior absolutely can be caused by being bored in class. If you were forced to sit in a first grade class and do their work, you would likely act the same way. The only thing that would stop you is being old enough to know that it's not acceptable behavior -- but even if you held it in all day, you would let it out when you got home.

If you can get them to accelerate him, or skip him, you may find that his behavior improves when he is in a class with older kids.

Have you tried the Iowa acceleration assessment to see how he shapes up on that? It measures all the different factors that make for a successful grade skip.

It's quite common for a gifted child who isn't challenged in school to respond in ways that look like ADD, ODD, or both... especially boys. And if he only displays those symptoms in a particular environment, then he doesn't have the disorder. The problem is the environment.

When he was younger I looked into testing and found that it isn't very accurate until they are older, and I wondered how much could be from exposure. I have never pushed him, it is all child driven, but we are also very curious adults who are always learning and reading, wondering and asking questions. Not being around "normal" children I thought most of his behavior was normal until his teacher told me otherwise. So it wasn't until this summer when I found out we were not going to be able to homeschool that I realized that we had to get him tested.

We are working with the school district to get him the washington state CoGAT test, and trying to get scheduled private Wechsler Intelligence Scale testing. I hadn't heard of the Iowa acceleration assessment, I will have to look into that one. This has been an education for me in what might work for kids, I was hesitant to accelerate him due to his behavior but it sounds like I could have been looking at it backwards all along. Maybe acceleration would help the behavior.

Thank you for your suggestions!

I found this on SENG: SENG Concerns for Gifted ADHD Diagnosis: Suggested Online Readings and Resources

Could you check into finding a psychologist specifically familiar with gifted children? I found this: Psychologists familiar with Testing the Gifted and Exceptionally Gifted on Hoagie's website.

DD got the same suggested diagnoses in a
similar situation, partly because the teachers
were having her do 2 digit multiplication,
then 3 digit, then 4--I can't imagine how they
thought that would teach her anything new. Also
there was a master stealth bully in that class who
was pushing buttons for all the girls but the
teachers couldn't see it and kept trying
to make them all be "friends."

Absolutely go to a gifted/2e specialist so you
don't have to spend even more time and
money trying to undo even more effects
of ignorance--if you have to; it sounds like
this psychologist agrees with you so if it's
just the one teacher thinking that this year
it may blow over if you can get suitable coursework.
Davidson's will also help
find people (although for us they were
also listed on Hoagies) and say they can
help talk to the school if your kid is a
Young Scholar--but there are also a bunch
of helpful articles on their site, and the
James Webb book on misdiagnosis of
gifted and 2e kids.

Good luck!

Yes, we had a bit of that too. One of the other boys in class and he did not get along at all, and saddly because he would be the louder of the two he was the one to get in trouble most of the time. They each pushed each others buttons, totally oil and water. It wasn't until the end of the school year though that the teacher started sending both boys to the office.

Other kids can be so mean, and sometimes the teacher just doesn't see it. I am hoping that we won't have that problem this year.

I am in contact with a specialist who specializes in testing so I hope that once we get the process going we will learn enough to make a difference this year. Fingers crossed!

ABSOLUTELY!!! (go back and look through my older posts if you want more detail)

We had some of the same issues with DD9 when she was in 1st grade. She started off the first week of school in trouble (maybe even the first day) and was pretty much in trouble the entire year. It had to be miserable for her, but we had no idea what was going on. She would come home and tell us she "hated" school, which is a very strong word in our family and not used lightly. This was all coming from a very inquisitive, bright kiddo that had no previous issues with school. That 1st grade year completely sucked every ounce of excitement for learning right out of her.

The school counselor swore DD had ADD/ADHD and the classroom teacher told us (flat out) that DD had ODD or conduct disorder. After trying to work with the school to come up with a solution and many, many meetings (most of which we requested) we had DD tested. We wanted to find out what we were dealing with so we could tackle whatever it was head on. We were expecting to maybe hear that she did have ADD/ADHD of some sort because she was wriggly at times, but not when she was engaged in something she enjoyed. Boy howdy - the testing really opened our eyes! We were told DD wasn't any of those things the school was telling us, she was bored (out of her mind) and dealing with a teacher that didn't have a clue. All her acting out in class could have probably been addressed if someone had a clue about gifted children and their needs. We, as her parents, sure didn't understand. She was our first child and we knew she was smart. We just didn't know how smart she really was and how that might affect her in school. I would have thought the school would have someone that understood, but now that we are educated about giftedness, I guess this happens more than you would think.

I think having your son tested is a good start. Make sure you ask the tester lots of questions and hopefully they will give you, in writing, some suggestions for school. Our tester listed several things we could do and several things school could do - it was at least a start!

DD's behaviors at school have improved some since 1st grade (she is going into 4th this year), but I'm not sure if that is due to maturity or her just being tired of always being in trouble or worse, just plain ole apathy. Last year she rushed through her school work, didn't really care how she did in school, and any time she didn't just get something, she would complain it was too hard for her. I really want the spunky, curious girl back!

testing before I retype my huge response that vanished....

1frugalmom, thank you so much for that. It helps to hear your story. In my gut that is what I feel is happening because he is such a sweet boy outside of school. Granted he is still a boy and does act out occasionally, but what kid doesn't? It is looking like we will get the CoGAT test through the school district this month, and I should get to schedule the full testing today or monday. I can't wait for results so I can help him love school again!

I've been lurking for a while but this post actually made me sign up so I could respond. I typed up a response that hasn't showed up yet but my last one liner did so I'll try this again.

I'll post more later (assuming my first post doesn't show up in the meantime) but I'll start by saying that a huge majority of your post could have been written by me about my just turned 7 year old DS. Two months into grade 1 his main teacher told us we should test for ADHD-Inattentive. Observing him in class I can see how she might have thought that was the problem. He refused to do most work, didn't listen, would flat out disobey her, space out and act completely clueless about what he was supposed to be doing (especially writing). He was a disaster to watch especially knowing how smart he was and how he could concentrate on things at home that were of interest, it was like two different kids. His other teacher (science, art, gym) didn't have a problem and thought he might be bright/gifted and bored. We went through with testing and it was very eye opening. He is gifted/LD (processing speed was 9th %tile). It is a fun combination.

I will say that the teacher that didn't have problems was VERY good at differentiating which I believe helped. It also helped that she had some of the more "fun" classes (he's a science fanatic). We requested more advanced math from the main teacher but were refused because he wasn't finishing any of the work in class. To be totally honest I can't blame him - I volunteered once a week and it was painful to sit through things being repeated over and over and over again. It was a LONG very frustrating year. We have 3 weeks until school starts and I'm already stressed out. Hopefully we'll get a better match and I won't have to battle him every morning (at this point loving school is such a far off fantasy unfortunately).

Good luck!

I am so glad that I found this forum!! I finally feel like I might get a handle on my son, and if not that at least there are some people out there that may understand my plight! I feel like I can talk about his abilities without getting the stink eye, and talk about the challenges they create without someone saying - if he is so smart why doesn't he behave?

The advice and stories that you have all shared has really helped! Thank you!!!

Chay - as a new memeber, my responses took almost 24 hours to post for the first couple so it will probably show up later. my last one (and I hope this one) posted right away so hopefully yours go better soon.

My 2e pg ds7.5 fits a lot of these descriptions and we've been in similar shoes since preschool too. He was misdiagnosed with ADHD and other stuff. I can't tell you the number of times I had teachers or various therapists say he shows ADHD-symptoms.

Ds was in two private gifted schools for pre-k/k and displaying similar behaviors. I can say that the behaviors you are mentioned are most likely directly related to the school setting.

My son has had some testing, but he hasn't fully cooperated with it to get a test score that is more aligned with his ability or performance at home.

I didn't get a chance to read through all the replies but your son sounds a whole lot like mine. He was certainly aware that he wasn't meeting expectations like he was supposed to and it made him feel bad because he just couldn't. This was in a Montessori that I thought was going to be the answer for him (we knew he was super bright and was starting to have issues even in Pre-K). Alas, it was not and this coming year he will be going to a public gifted elementary. I'm hopeful the teachers will be more understanding there and will better be able to engage him in the lessons. He is going into 2nd but last year as a first grader, they had him doing 3rd grade+ work.

He also has visual processing issues so that combined with being EG/PG led to a subpar "performance" in school. Being bored or having vision issues or learning disabilities can certainly lead to behavior that others see as ADHD.

There is a book about misdiagnosing gifted kids with ADHD and it goes through other possibilities. Pretty interesting. http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/0910707677

I feel like I wrote your post ! my son is going into first grade this year, we are switching schools as our sister school offers Spanish immersion. Mostly I expect him to be just as bored as he was ( and disruptive) in kindergarten- just in Spanish. 10 + 10 in spanish is just as boring as it is in english!! I am trying to get the school to place him in the. 3rd grade gifted program ( a mere 4.5 hrs/ wk) but they think I am just a pain and I should just wait to see how school goes.. Of course it won't go well because he will be bored out of his mind and then they will say he is not mature enough to go into the gifted program. It's a double-edged sword. I know public school is probably not the ideal setting for kids that are so far ahead if the others, but here in NY we have two gifted schools and they are very expensive and far! We may end up going that route if he starts to get negative with school again. We did a gifted camp this summer a d behavior was good, counselors were impressed and placed him in grade 2 -5 gifted and he was still the most knowledgeable! I suggest you get a letter from camp detailing his behavioral and academic progress and show it to your school, along with testing. Our school tested my son for us, but are still not willing to advance him due to behavior ONLY at school as well. Get research together (Davidson articles, etc) and be as sweet as pie and get what your son needs. You are the boss of his education!

This was something my DD's school was hinting at, when they suggested DD "use her giftedness to probe deeper into the material," or something to that effect. And while I think that's certainly something that can happen, I think it was wholly inappropriate at the 1st grade level, because:

- It needs to be spontaneous and child-driven, not a requirement for every assignment ever day.

- At that level, there are too many things that don't get any deeper, like the aforementioned 10+10.

- It effectively shifts the responsibility for teaching and engaging my child from the responsible, paid adults to the 7yo child.

So yeah, we basically looked at the principal like she'd just uttered a four-letter word.

Thank you! It is nice to see this balance and I wholeheartely agree! I honestly think this is one reason why it had gotten as bad as it has. I strongly feel that kids should learn to behave and respect their teachers no matter what they have to do. I have never been the parent that thinks their child is perfect or that they can do no wrong. I know that he has been disruptive and I want to help him not be in any way I can. I started out with the belief that he is ahead so what he really needs to learn is the social and behavioral side. That while the other kids learn to read etc. he can learn to be a good student/classmate. I have sided with the teachers for the most part and talked with him daily about apropriate behavior and options he has for making better decisions (though at times I have wanted to throttle the teachers for some of their decisions but they are the athority figure at school and he needs to respect that). Despite that, we have experianced the teacher getting defensive and upstet anyway, because I mentioned that some of it - by no means all - may be because he was bored even if it didn't excuse it in any way at he is still responsible for his actions, just that if she challenged him a bit more it may get a bit better. Wrong path....

Overall I am just hoping that by testing I will have some "proof" that he is advanced and then have weight behind my case. Then it isn't mommy saying her baby is gifted and why arn't you treating him special? It is a test showing his strengths and weaknesses and how can we work with them?


This is the peice I think was missing the most last year, he would tell me the things that went wrong but no matter how I tried to pull them out he wouldn't tell me good things he did. He focused solely on the "bad" behaviors and internalized them rather than looking at the fact that he also did xyz that was good. We are going to have to work on that this year.

Thank you for the book recomendation, I will have to check it out.

I hope the new school works out for you guys! I wish we had options like that here. In my district the gifted program doesn't start until 3rd grade - the whole they level out by 3rd idea at work, and I am sure with his behavior they wouldn't even consider him. sigh.

I am very skeptical of this idea of "enrichment". To me it just looks like "nothing, disguised as something".

I know what you mean. I had asked for the teacher to give me a note every day about his behavior (good and bad) so I would know what had happened and could have better discusions about the day with my son. It didn't need to be long - just a sentence or two, the highlights. Her respose was that we want to teach the children to be responsibile for their actions so if he wants it he will have to ask for it. My thought was WTF? A 6 year old is supposed to ask for a note for his mom every day? Yeah right! Some things need to be child driven, but that is not one of them.

I think that in some assignments my child would do that if he was encouraged to, but as you point out there are assginments that would never work with. And while my child does that at home with me, he has been encouraged to ask questions and be engaged in topics. I let him use books or the internet (guided/supervised) when I don't know the answers, but he loves to study "with" me when I have the time. I think at school he has not been alowed to ask as many questions or go as deeply as he would like. So he doesn't try. He is very black and white, if he was told no before, he likely won't in the future, sometimes breaking that pattern with him can be very difficult. So not only is that not always appropriate, but you have to have a teacher that can encourage it and make the child feel like it is ok to do those kinds of things.

He is also one to hide his abilities only doing what is expected and not an ounce more. He wants to be just like his classmates, wants to fit in and be like them. I guess it will take him longer to learn that he isn't like them (speaking from experiance, it took me a long time too). We have discussed that teachers only know what you can do if you show them and if you want harder work you have to show them you can do the work you are being given, but it hasn't seemed to help much.

It sounds like unreasonable/inappropriate expectations from the teacher is part of the problem.

I agree. If this were a medical condition, would the teacher also expect the child to need to "ask" for his/her monitoring/medication in order to receive it?

(Nevermind, actually... some teachers actually DO expect just that... )

In any even, not really developmentally appropriate for a 6yo to "take charge of his/her education" like this.

There is a trend now in educational theory that holds that students need to become engaged and empowered to "own" their education...

and that no age is too young to do this, apparently. I'm obviously not in favor of that because I think that it flatly ignores developmental barriers, and because I think it is a result of correlation fallacy, writ large.

But in any case, it also only seems to be applied to kids whose needs are difficult to actually meet in the standard classroom setting. The kids who fit into the regular menu of offerings get what they need, and the rest get "empowerment" to DIY, I guess.


Something to be aware of.

LOL but only because it is a better option than tears... I agree. Those who are doing just fine - read are the kids where the level and pace are already right for them - don't need to be responsible for their education because they are getting it - and getting it just right for them. It is only those who are either behind, ahead, acting out etc that get this advice.

I love the idea of child led edcuation, my son does it regularly at home. Want to know more about the Titantic, dinosaurs, etomology, the Civil War, or viruses, lets go find out! Not enough yet, lets find out more. How does that connect to x, lets think about that. What would be different if we never did y? I don't know lets reason it out. However, in a classroom setting it doen't work so well. They are studying something that the teacher has given them, the teacher has a plan of what they are going to learn, how they are going to learn it and at what pace they are going to learn it. So having a child that wants to learn more, or faster or doesn't want to learn it because he knows it and is facinated with something else right now isn't a good fit - and telling that young child that they need to find a way to make the lesson more interesting for themself is difficult. And at what point is that going to teach the child that they can tune out and entertain themselves, albeit quietly (a much better alternitive to acting out), rather than learning to study and actually learn in class? I learned in school that behaving was more important than learning, and boy was it a shock when I reached a point where I actually had to work to learn, I had never experianced it! Even then though I had the easy classes that I had to endure - and endure I did. I know I still think of or create patterns, write music, or do math in meetings to keep my self occupied when the enevitable loop of repeating begins, does that mean that I am paying attention or participating? No, I am just being quiet and looking engaged. I really hope for better for my son, and so far he hasn't shown himself to be the complient quiet child that I was.

LOL but only because it is a better option than tears... I agree. Those who are doing just fine - read are the kids where the level and pace are already right for them - don't need to be responsible for their education because they are getting it - and getting it just right for them. It is only those who are either behind, ahead, acting out etc that get this advice.

I love the idea of child led edcuation, my son does it regularly at home. Want to know more about the Titantic, dinosaurs, etomology, the Civil War, or viruses, lets go find out! Not enough yet, lets find out more. How does that connect to x, lets think about that. What would be different if we never did y? I don't know lets reason it out. However, in a classroom setting it doen't work so well. They are studying something that the teacher has given them, the teacher has a plan of what they are going to learn, how they are going to learn it and at what pace they are going to learn it. So having a child that wants to learn more, or faster or doesn't want to learn it because he knows it and is facinated with something else right now isn't a good fit - and telling that young child that they need to find a way to make the lesson more interesting for themself is difficult. And at what point is that going to teach the child that they can tune out and entertain themselves, albeit quietly (a much better alternitive to acting out), rather than learning to study and actually learn in class? I learned in school that behaving was more important than learning, and boy was it a shock when I reached a point where I actually had to work to learn, I had never experianced it! Even then though I had the easy classes that I had to endure - and endure I did. I know I still think of or create patterns, write music, or do math in meetings to keep my self occupied when the enevitable loop of repeating begins, does that mean that I am paying attention or participating? No, I am just being quiet and looking engaged. I really hope for better for my son, and so far he hasn't shown himself to be the complient quiet child that I was.

Wish you were on the same coast, sounds like our 7 yo's would be great pals! Our school tried to push the ADHD/ODD thing, too, around the same age. If you can, get a neuropsych evaluation done. Ours not only confirmed that he was frustrated due to his giftedness level, but spotted Asperger's as well. Knowing helped us guide him better re: dealing with social issues, and got the school cooperating with us better. Good luck!

We start that process on Monday! I alternate between excitement and fear. I know it is silly, but often the fear wins. Part of me worries that maybe he isn't gifted and maybe he really is ADD/ODD, despite the lack of evidence anywhere outside of school. No matter what I see him do - he is being normal for him, and never being around other "normal" children, I don't often see how different he is. I also worry that he won't test well because he tends not to show any one else his full potential (for that matter I am not sure that I see his full potential), so even once we have the test results will they be right? What I would do for a crystal ball right now.....

I hope that we have a similar experience with the testing giving us the tools to get the school to listen better. So far I have gotten the party line of "our objective is to challenge each student to their full potential in an interactive environment." Last year that didn't really work and I am hoping that with a few changes that this year may be better. School starts soon, and the testing will be done soon after that so hopefully it will be a better year