Okay I'm so frustrated right now! My 2 year old is just out of control!
I had to put him back to bed like 15 times tonight and spanking and yelling seems to be the only way to get him to listen! I hate to spank and i feel so awful. This little guy is super smart and can use it so well to manipulate and cause trouble!
I feel lost on what to do with him. We had a real bad situation the other day with him, that he tries to repeat often.
I was talking to a teacher at my son's school, and my DS2 quickly snuck out the office door to the parking lot. We couldn't find him and thought no he couldn't have gone out one of us would have seen him. We went out to find him and someone said they saw a man take off with a little 2 year old. We were so scared. Luckly it wasn't a weirdo and the guy had him at a store and was going to call the police to help find his mother! Gosh i felt like such a bad mom. But no one would believe me i bet on how truly smart and clever this little guy is.

Okay there was a lady sitting at a desk right by the door and like 4 other teachers or more and we all didn't see him. I'm not super super surprised though because he is so cleaver and sneaky. He waits till you're not looking and totally sneaks. I have to lock the doors at home so he wont go out.
He tries to do this everywhere we go. HE drives me bonkers all day with the things he does. Dumping a bag of flour on the floor, painting the bathroom with my face wash, painting the couch with paint spot making marker things, smashing his brothers creations, etc.
I know it's just what being 2 is like but this guy is so so to the extreme i think because of his giftedness. I know this isn't making lots of sense and isn't very thought out. But do any of you know of any books that would help me, or do you or have you had similar little ones that you have though were just way more out of control..largely because they're extra clever? I don't remember my other gifties being this hard! (i have 4 kids he's #3) I'm ready to ship him off to the Zoo!

Oh man, that does sound tough! I can't believe he was able to sneak away like that. That must have been absolutely frightening!

I have had to reevaluate parenting my two-year-old recently. I felt like I had the normal toddler stuff down pat, but she is doing things now...Well, I feel like we are beyond toddlerdom. She is giving me so much attitude and backtalk and sass. This stuff really gets to me. I really need to ask myself why. And, I really need some more weapons in my arsenal, because I feel so unarmed against her. I try to bestow gentle discipline, but is getting really hard. It takes everything for me not to smack her. I am confident that spanking and timeouts would not work with her. So, yes, I would love some book recs too.

I do think it is important to remember their age, and that even when they are doing stuff or back talking like a five-year-old, they are not five, and it only makes us go crazier when we try to expect them to behave like a five-year-old.

I also try to focus on the good stuff. Tonight, I had my childhood blanket out, and she asked me if it was my "guppie" (her pet name for her special blankie) I said it was. Then she asked, "Do you pretend that your guppie talks to you?" I playfully answered yes, and she snuggled hers and sighed, "I do that too."

That would have scared me to death! My DS who is almost 4 now takes off still on occasion, though much less often then at 2... it seems like he just has this extremely deep sense of trust that I will find him, and he's very curious (to see what's around the corner). Now that he's a little older, clear consequences work to prevent him from doing that (at least when I remember to warn him about it).

What worked best for us at 2 was to remind myself that those traits that are so impossible now are things that will work well for DS as a adult. That and regular babysitting hours, both for novelty for DS and time to regroup for me.

I have two brothers -- it was the impossible one, the couldn't stay-where-he-was-told one who wrecked the block towers and painted the dog, that turned out to be a CEO. The other one, who built the towers, is probably brighter on paper, but is satisfied to lead a less ambitious life.

Polly

Transforming the Difficult Cgild Workbook by Lisa Bravo and Howard Glasser.

See what you think. I think it is time to teach the Greatness of Patience.
And great to see you here!

Love and more love
Grinity

The backtalk drives the hubby bonkers! He's sure strict discipline while they're very young is the only way because you can't control them and keep them from being hoodlums when they're teenagers, it's too late then. I'm the Mamma. I think re-direct but in big-picture daydreamer way: educate, train; let them already be busy enjoying something positive by then they won't be hoodlums. I like to think problems are phases they'll outgrow until time proves me wrong. We'll cross that bridge if we get there.
At least I hope the button-pushing gives way to more constructive hobbies with age and options.
Books:
There's a great thread by Grinnity called "the nurtured heart approach, Transforming the Difficult child". It hasn't solved all of our problems but it's novel approach to time-out has de-escalated our stand-offs and hopefully started ds on the right track to take correction and not make it worse, ie at school. It also reveals that when kids are "asking for a spanking" all day long it's because they're little energy vampires that feed on excitement and intensity. Somehow you have to match the high energy level attention they're craving, but not as a reward for getting in trouble. Somehow you're going to have to be dispassionate when you're correcting him. You really have to buy that cd. It doesn't really have a lot of useful tips on it, but it is a great Opera "aha" moment that will change your angle of perspective. I would have liked more content for my $, but I don't think I would have reached his conclusion without hearing him.

The happiest toddler on the block explores this energy hunger too, but I didn't find it as useful. It recommends responding to toddlers at the same level of energy that they're throwing a tantrum at, to validate that you understand what they are communicating. This cuts the tantrum time considerably. I feel like the window of development that was useful wasn't worth the $. I did end up using his advice that when your little kid asks for something instead of saying "no" say "I wish you could have that". Crazy, but before they're completely coherent that answer let's them know you understand, the answer's "no", but they feel connected rather than rejected. As a pre-schooler I use "no" sometimes "I wish" sometimes. As a toddler "I wish" worked better.

More later, Peace.

That's the big part at this age. I think the nurtured heart was more comprehensive because while the energy exchange was key in both programs the nurtured heart approach suggested how to set them up for success when it comes to listening to you.

Lol, hi!

I had a 2-yr old like that--she is now 4 and it is better. I found this recently and thought it was helpful--Get off your butt parenting: http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=54

And seconding the nurtured heart book.

Good luck!

My 2 year old is intense, demanding, very bright, and clingy with explosive emotions. All beyond the "norm". I feel your pain...

Here is another page from what I linked to above that I think is worth reading: http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=4

edited to add this page: http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=7
The point here being that the first step in effective parenting is communicating love. This is imo the main point of the nurtured heart approach as well.

a LOT of what you describe sounds so familiar. it does get better; we just took down the gate to the kitchen so our 4 can move more freely about because when 2 or 3 she was into EVERYTHING, sneaking or otherwise. Out the front door if not locked/safety capped, etc., but of course we still had to watch like hawks. Now finally there is a bit of peace, but she is still very headstrong, her way or the highway, but that too seems to be a bit more flexible.

I like to reserve the most severe punishment for the important issues. For examle, crossing the road without looking, running too far away from the parent, violence against others. Also, some children do not respond to punishment if it happens too long after the undesired behavior. When I say too long, I mean even more than 3 seconds after the behavior begins may be too long.

If the child is reacting worse after a punishment, then they are likely not connecting the punishment to their own behavior. In the case of a 2 year old I was dealing with, spanking would have no effect after 5 seconds and resulted in an escalation of bad behavior. Meanwhile, just a light poke on the shoulder 2 seconds after the start of the behavior stopped it. Rather than try to fight back, the child had the what have I done look.

The staying in bed issue is a tough one. I have had a lot of struggles with this one myself. In my case, the problem went away after I moved. I think my DD was scared of something in the old place. The running off issue is not something I have had to deal with, but the not looking before crossing the road has been a continuous work in progress. Four years and counting. I won't stop working at it until my currently DD6 gets it right.

Two year olds often can't understand the consequences of their actions. Even if they can understand that doesn't mean they have the impulse control to stop.

I know it is exhausting but the reality is that two year olds, especially intense ones, require constant supervision. You can also lower your stress by doing what you can to alter the environment (locks high up on doors, putting some breakables away into storage for a while.) Some errands may need to be let go or reserved for time without the child. These are temporary changes and there is no reason to try to force the child to learn the lesson right now. He will get it when he's ready and in the meantime you can make life easier for everyone by taking some steps to change the environment.

I would also encourage you to plan ahead to find ways to keep your child engaged and set him up for success. Providing appropriate approved outlets for sensory play may help him meet that need without getting into flour, etc. Sensory play can include - water in the bathtub, a rubbermaid container filled with beans and toys like matchbox cars, playdough and clay, and the sandbox. Many two year olds enjoy a bucket of water, a paintbrush and some sidewalk. The sprinkler also saved our sanity around that age. Limited choices may also be helpful if your child is very verbal. Give two choices that are okay with you - "do you want to hold my hand or my purse", "while we wait do you want to hop up and down or sing a song?" etc.

It is good you've realized spanking doesn't work. I would encourage you right now to make the decision to never spank again. It doesn't work. The Natural Child Project has several good short articles that might help give you some good ideas. http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/22_alternatives.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

Yes to this and to the previous poster who noted "Feeling your pain."

Supernanny-style methods do work.

The bad news is that it apparently only lasts until adolescence, and then you get horrible, PTSD style flashbacks to these years... just without the little-one sweetness in between the hair-rasing adventures. You could consider this a preview, if you will. LOL!

One thing that I found worked VERY well with my DD at this age was a three step approach to problems with her:

a) calm her down when she's freaking out/out of control-- find a low-sensory place that you can PLACE your child for "calm down" time. Then leave them there when they need it-- whether that is so that they can stop a massive tantrum, or so that you can clear away the havoc, either way...

b) talk it over-- express disappointment with actions/choices... try to get the CHILD to suggest ways of improving his/her control over himself/herself so that it doesn't happen again. (Keep this simple and age appropriate, btw-- that is why I suggest letting the child take the lead there-- but gifties will surprise sometimes in their sophistication.)

c) compromise where you CAN. (and hey, with basic safety, there isn't a compromise. So be it.)

Oh-- and one more thing. While we are not parents that are necessarily putting any "tool" off the table (physical punishment included), there comes a time when one must decide whether one's goal as a parent is punishment, or is it discipline?

There is a major difference between those two things. One of them is about control and an imbalance of power-- the other is about love and training.

Kids know the difference. If you feel yourself sliding toward punishment (and wow, can intense kids ever PUSH you there) then I find that it is time for ME to take a little "time out" to regroup and rethink my big picture.

I'm not trying to "win" disagreements with my child. I'm trying to train her to be a healthy human being. BIG difference. Punitive measures are not as effective for the latter, just in general.

Here's another vote for the Nurtured Heart approach. In our experience it works best if you go the whole hog-- implementing the point system and everything-- instead of just skimming it for words of gentle wisdom and trying to cut down on the contentiousness. The book itself (the original, not the workbook that we don't have) is a little too new-age for our tastes, and wastes a lot of pages restating things, but the methods do work whether you agree with all the ideas or not.

Another book I can recommend in a similar vein is "Beyond Time-Out: From Chaos to Calm", by Beth A. Grosshans and Janet H. Burton. It has ideas on how to remedy power imbalances within the family, which I suspect are more likely to happen with gifted kids, and why they occur, which may be enlightening even if you just go with the Nurtured Heart training methods.

I liked the last few posts. The word punishment is to strong a word. I consider my approach to be a combination of communication and consequence. Some young children do not respond to verbal communication, so I use physical communication. Think of the physical communication as steering the child's behavior. It does not have to be punishment.

If your struggling with verbal communication, then focus on only one word. The word I focus on is stop. This is the only word I expect my DD to respond to instantly. When she started to respond to the word stop, I then began teaching her to use it. I said I will tickle you until you say stop.

I like to think of the physical method of communication like steering a car. Steer to much and you end up in the ditch. Use increasely physical cues to deal with increasingly intense behavior. Think of this as communication.

In my case, I try as much as possible to be proactive. I practiced my reactions before the behavior even started. Once it started, I then practiced it with the child in calm times. Then I repeated the reaction during the behavior. I like to think of it like a fire drill. Learn to be calm before the real fire happens.

When a child does not listen to a request by me, then the next request the child makes of me is not responded to. Just some of what I try. Does not always work out the first time or the next hundred, but I keep trying. Just some thoughts.

The first thing I think you need to remember that no matter how smart he is, you're smarter AND wiser. And you have better impulse control than he does. You also have less frustration because you have control over almost everything in your life.

If he's advanced then you have an advantage over other parents in that he will understand you talking to him.

My 2 year old tried to be a runner. What I did was institute a strict rule that he must be holding my hand at all times if he was walking. If he wouldn't hold my hand, he would be carried or be put in the shopping cart or stroller. If I couldn't physically keep him in the shopping cart or my arms we would go straight to the car. Depending on how much he wanted to be out or at home I would either go home, or wait it out in the car.

I still have locks on our doors at home. I can't imagine allowing a two year old to have the option to walk out of the house. Same with letting him have access to his sibling's artworks and bags of flour. If you child-proof your house a lot of the issues will simply disappear.

I think all spanking him teaches him is that it's OK to hit people. It doesn't teach them internal self discipline and once they're bigger than you you'll be SOL for discipline. We prefer to use the far more manipulative and tailored method of natural consequences. For every problem you can't head off in advance, there is a logical consequence. Like, if you can't hold hands and stay near mom, you can't walk. If you smear your food all over the kitchen, then it's not edible and you'll be hungry by the next mealtime. If you don't wear a coat, you get cold.

If he's really into painting things he shouldn't, try and create opportunities for him to paint with interesting textures. Shaving cream or pudding in the bathtub is fun.

When he won't stay in bed you need to make coming out of bed really unrewarding. I have turned off all the lights in the house to make it boring for my kids. You probably will be able to just wordlessly and calmly take him back to bed and put him in, as many times as it takes. He'll fall asleep eventually, and with no interesting reward of mom losing it and shouting and hitting it won't be nearly as fun.

Then, I'd look at why he's not falling asleep. Is he not tired yet, or overtired? Is his pre-bed routine long enough or too long? Is his circadian rhythm off? Is he having TV in the evening that's waking him up? Is he too hungry by bedtime because dinner is early, or is dinner too late and he's overhungry and can't eat? Is he ready to drop a nap or should he still be napping? Is his nap too early or too late in the day?

It's true that often a two or three year olds can often only communicate their feelings using their teeth or their hands, but as adults we have a lot more tools at our disposal and violence is counterproductive. The worst thing one of my kids can do is hurt another person, so we reserve the worst consequence for it, as I imagine you do. Saying "don't hit!" followed closely by *BAM* is a hell of a confusing message for anyone, let alone a child.

I agree with Tallulah wholeheartedly.

My dad always tells me that it�s my fault that DS2 gets into things he shouldn�t be. A 2yo doesn�t understand it�s not OK to dump flour everywhere.

Granted, your boy may more physically active than other 2yos, so he gets into more troubles. Is he physically/mentally challenged on a daily basis? I notice DS2 misbehaves a lot more often when he is bored.

Good luck.

To spank or not to spank is so contriversial, there's even divided opinions in my own household. �Here's the law: http://www.woai.com/content/trouble...exas-law-say/04q17j51tUi4NURs5oHuqw.cspx

I've only raised one kid past the age of two, the other one is about to turn 6 months. �It might be different with four children. �I don't keep my eyes on my boy the whole time I'm in the store but we've always played call and answer games, right now it's "red robin" "yum", and "o, o reily's" "auto parts". �Seriously cheesy, especially when ds, dh, and I are doing these call & answer in a round on a car ride. �But if one of us starts this game the others always play which helps me keep an ear on him when I'm not looking. �So, there's my embarrassing secret.
We round-robin cheesy commercial jingles. It's all about making a human connection.

Look for my new thread "education = discipline IMO" for the remainder of this thought.

I disagree with the idea of distracting children from bad behavior during these various cycles where behavior often becomes intense. To me, this is a critical learning stage and must be seen as an opportunity.

Sure, I agree two year olds can't understand complex behaviors, but they are capable of learning basic behaviors. This is often the time when a child first experiments with heights, falls and realizes there is a consequence. Don't let them experience this from a small height and they may just walk off a cliff one day.

I know the parents of a girl who at 18 years of age on her first day outside the safe community she grew up in walked right in front of a car without looking. Maybe I am wrong, but I think these early cycles of intense behavior are there for a reason. They begin early when the consequences are of less risk, so we learn safe behavior before we are big enough for the consequences to be severe.

The girl I mentioned was intelligent academically. This is why I don't believe academic teaching is a replacement for behavioral teaching. Unfortunately, no one will ever know how far she would have gone academically.

This prob. doesn't help the OP--b/c my dd4 sounds like her child--but with dd10, a bag of smarties and constant positive reinforcement for a few days stopped the running away in parking lots problem.

Yes to what Jamie is saying-- I see it as an opportunity to teach executive function; age-appropriately, of course, and understanding that impulsivity is NORMAL at this age...

so I didn't call this "time out" and I didn't call it a "naughty spot"-- frankly, I didn't give it a cute name at all.

I simply placed DD there (or told her to go there), "until you have control of yourself again," which was always at my discretion. I didn't tend to use a timer, since IMO that turns this from discipline into punishment.

Sometimes "I'm still too angry right now because of what you did" was reason enough for an extra few minutes of reflection for her. I definitely learned early not to hide my emotional responses to her. That was a sure ticket to escalation, because she NEEDED to know that her behavior frightened/irritated/embarrassed us when it was inappropriate or dangerous.



Some of this probably depends upon temperment, however. My DD was very socially oriented, but she was never as physically brazen/impulsive as the OP's child. Then again, I think she may have been responding to our obvious emotional responses to that kind of behavior. I also intervened physically when I had to get her to stop something and listen to me. A single swat or tap on the shoulder was a signal to her that whatever she was in the middle of was WAY out of bounds, and that it often meant DANGER.

We let her see when she did something that frightened us, and then we explained WHY it was frightening. I wouldn't recommend that for most toddlers, since my experience suggests that most of them don't have the cognitive capacity for that kind of cause-and-effect reasoning, but DD certainly seemed to.

Agreed. Agreed. Couldn't agree more. Learned it from the nurtured heart approach. Not only do I practice my reaction proactively I have began to train ds how he should react and we practice proactively when there's not a problem. The most useful technique TNH teaches. I think cognitive behavior therapy teaches it also. Learn how to react. Teach your kids how to react- not just by modeling. By role-playing. Teach them an appropriate kid reaction just as much as you prepare your own appropriate parent reaction. Like another poster said all this is only good for the next few years. Everything changes. Tip: it's not being FAKE to learn how to present yourself. Somehow that's true.

Age 2 is rough on the parents. I remember my DD trying to dart across a packed parking lot and my quick reflexes of grabbing hold of her. It was also the first time I was really scared for her and made it clear (emotionally and with words). She really understood that her mommy was upset and why I was so upset. She never did it again and always waited patiently by the van until I took her hand. She would also make comments about how dangerous it would be for her to run out in the street or parking lot.

Also, as far as attitude, we were headed in the same direction and something clicked inside of me about why. DD was ready to take on more responsibilities and because we were still treating her like a baby she was lashing out at us. Once we recognized this and gave her more to do her attitude changed. This isn't to say we didn't have some outbursts here and there but I also made a point of explaining in detail why it wasn't acceptable. I know experts claim children at this age aren't ready and can't grasp the whys of the issue but I found that my DD absolutely could. By treating her with respect and talking to her in a more mature way and by providing options for her to choose instead of what she was wanting that caused the tantrum; she was more willing to accept what was right and wrong.

I whole heartedly agree with this. DD has a lot of separation anxiety and for once we were able to use that to our advantage. We explained to her if she runs away from us in a parking lot or at a grocery store or where ever that someone could take her away from us. She was really calm about it, asked a few questions and then never tried to run away like that again (the final straw was at the airport a couple of months ago when she ran down the corridor leading to the airplane BEFORE boarding had started!!).

We try to explain things to her as clearly and directly as possible. If she doesn't brush her teeth the germs are going to "eat" her teeth, if she doesn't take a bath her butt will stinky (ok, she mostly thinks this is funny), if she doesn't put away her toys they can get broken etc. It's not a perfect system but it has helped significantly.

ETA: I missed your comment about bedtime at first but I'm just wondering if you have a consistent routine? DD was horrible to get to bed for the first 2 years of her life but we've fallen into a strict routine now that has helped. We also sing her to sleep every night (the trick was finding the right song that puts her to sleep) and now she falls to sleep relatively quickly every night.

Thanks all of you for your info. and advice. I reserved the book Grinity and some of you recommended, from the library.

I think the number one reason for his behavior is an attention need, and i know that need is more in tense with gifted children. I homeschool the older 2 and so often he is left out. I spent a good amount of time doing different activites with him today, involving him in cooking and cleaning. He was much better today. Only had 1 real issue all day that i can think of, dumped the baby powder out all over for Dad.
I bet the biggest thing i can do to improve behavior is to find more activites for us to do together , and involve him more spend time, that and make sure he gets enough sleep.
Also the behavior didn't start till after DS 3mo was born. So that's gotta show it's and attention thing.
I still need to check out the links. I'm a super busy Momma. Took me so many time today to try to read through all your great posts.

And with four kids to raise- you go super-Mamma! You deserve supportive advice. Speaking of super-Mamma, Grinnity has also let us in on an e-mail service by flylady dot com, which sends many too many e-mails daily to your in-box but you don't have to read them all, just takes a few seconds to delete on your busy days. She sells cleaning products and teaches a rhythm to "blessing your family with a clean house" but she's super inspirational in teaching a different way of doing it so that you're never a martyr. That's been so key. You don't want to be a martyr. Nobody likes a martyr. She'll teach you how not to be. I don't think anybody showed me how not to be and it's been quite useful.

Thanks
I love fly lady. Haven't done it lately, but do on and off. Need to get going with it again, it would help me.

This is exactly how I would describe my daughter. I have no clue if she is truly gifted. Of course I think she is, she's my kid! She's not 3 so actual testing is out of the question but compared to others her age and older she is a little advanced but because of these emotions, so much more difficult. How are you dealing & and handling your child? Help!!!!

We used to play sleeping games, too.

Now, we tell Mr W that he hurts our feelings when he does this. It works much better than anything else we can say.

He is so sensitive that once we tell him something like this, he will burst into tears and tell us "It will be ok." and then we have to spend 10 minutes calming HIM down.

So we use it sparingly.

He is a very light sleeper and recently had issues sleeping in his room, so I slept in there and sure enough, the heater in the attic makes loud noises and his ceiling fan has developed a bad bearing.

That's actually a great point. DD won't sleep in a room with ANY shadows. We have some blinds that prevent pretty much all light from getting in but if we forget to put them down she'll freak out about the shadows. Everything has to be absolutely just so or we're in for trouble!

Hmph. Just read this thread now. I'm scared of the terrible twos. Guess that's why I've been ignoring it, really

DS has been having such a "golden era" with behavior. And he's about to turn two...

On sleeping rooms... at one point, DS woke up screaming "red" over and over. After quite a wild goose chase, he calmed down enought to go and stand pointing at an alarm clock in another room with BLUE numbers. Making the switch about halved his nighttime wake-ups, permanantly (not that it's no longer a problem, he was waking every 20 min at the time)

Anyway, that was about -2 cents, right?
-Mich
(who should not really be allowed to post publicly as self-therapy.)

So I have two kids, DD13 who at two was hard but one could reason with her. There was a kid in our play group who the mother could not reason with. I thought ohhh its that mother shes not doing blah blah... Anyways I get to put my foot in my mouth cuz now I have a DD2 who does not reason.... She runs off. I never thought I would do it...but I have a leash for her. I use it when we are in airports or other busy places and I can not keep my focus on her. She ran once in an airport...crawled under the bathroom door... I also have the rules that she has to hold my hand etc. but the leash gives me that little bit of security in places where attention can be drawn away.

The other day we were at a party. I got to see the Nurtured Heart theory in action. There was a sensitive 2 year old who we know. My DD2 kept taking a toy out of her hand to watch the 2 year old's reaction. It was so obvious what she was doing. She had no interest in the toy itself but the two year's old reaction was definitely her toy. I guess I will keep reading the book.

Honey, if you are waking up with him, even if it's every 40 minutes, you most certianly allowed to post as self-therapy. It is public, but that's why we use usernames!

((wink))
Grinity

LOLROTF - Thank Goodness I found you in time! Can you imagine if you found about about NHA at age 12 instead of age 2?
Remember, that as advanced as these kids are in many ways, it's hard at age 2 to realize that other kids have souls. Espeically by watching how mechanistically most ND 2 year olds behave.
I think this is around the time I had to start saying: "We don't break our friends."
Love and More Love,
Grinity

Ohhh my 12 and playing the emotional response game would be pretty nasty. One of the things I am curious about is if this relates to LOG at all? I am curious how my kids are going to compare. Granted I do not even know if my youngest is Gifted...but I imagine from the things she is doing that she will be. I am kind of dreading the whole school thing, but I do feel a bit more prepared than with the first.