Well, dd is 29 months and *it* has arrived...yup the terrible two's are here. Oh my gosh, my child is completely different than she was just a short month ago. I hear "NO, I SAID RIGHT NOW!" at least 2 dozen times a day...and she yells it. Here's an example from today:

dd: "Mama, let's see if Toopy and Binoo are on tv."

me: "No, I think we have had enough tv for today. we'll watch more tomorrow, but let's go find something fun to play with now."

dd: "No, I want to watch tv...RIGHT NOW."

Me: "No, not right now. It is play time now."

dd: "NO, I said RIGHT NOW!"

I eventually distract her and we find something else that keeps her happy...but this is SO annoying to me. When and how did she become such a rude girl. dh and I don't speak like this...where did she learn it?

What we are struggling with, is how do we deal with this? Is she too young to be sent to her room? We tried this one day and it was a horrible day. Today we tried basically ignoring it and distracting her and it was a much better day, but I worry about spoiling her. We work so hard entertaining her...when is she going to start entertaining herself?

I don't know where I am going with this. I am just tired. Oh she has also decided she needs me in the middle of the night for extra cuddles. For the last 3 nights she has asked for cuddles (and once for popcorn?) at least 3 times during the night.

So lack of sleep on top of a rude, demanding, bossy (Daddy, put your guitar away now, it's not guitar time.) toddler is just not fun.

Thanks for listening...I don't think I'm going anywhere with this, just needed to vent!

Deep Breath ....

Read a couple posts down, "Does your toddler boss you around?"

Good Luck, it does get better. WIth DD8, the bossiness turned into complex negotiations when told "no". DD4 is still in the bossy stage but slowly is learning to say Please.

Hi Oneisenough. I think we have all either BTDT or are currently there. I found the books on Love and Logic very helpful. I think every kid goes through a phase where they determine where the line is between how much control they have and how firm mom and dad are going to stick to their guns. Unfortunately with high-spirited gifted kids, it gets complicated. Avoid power struggles at all costs. I found it helpful to have a timer at this age. We use the kitchen timer because it is really loud. I say, "We are going to do X activity for X amount of time. Let's go set the timer." Then when the time is up, it is a great tool to move on to the next activity. HTH Good luck!

It can get tiring and the way you react to it has a direct effect on the situation.

Here is the way I handle it:

1. Some days I am in such a good mood that it strikes me as funny and I can't help but laugh.

2. Other days I have no tolerance for it and her behavior gets things taken away which I know a lot of people think they are too young at this age but it really works, as long as you stick with it. But as far as sending them to their room ... I really think they are too young to get that method. Do you try timeouts? Sending them to the room is a form of timeout but maybe a spot on the floor away from the tv and toys where it won't be fun. You want them to view it as a punishment.

3. Other times I have a calmness about myself and sweetly remind her how to ask for things. "Is that how we ask for things?" She quickly changes her tune and does it right ... I have noticed that this method does not work that well without the building block of the above one. But both used together has broken a lot of DD habit on this one.

But hang in there... this too will pass... and if not she will be an interesting teenager won't she?

First of all, a word of sympathy. With two children 19-months apart, I've been there!

Now that dds are 4.5 and 3, I will tell you it has gotten much better. I have found 4, in particular, to be a very lovely age.

I agreed with Katelyn's Mom. If you have the energy, I find it helps to consistently ask her to repeat her demands in a nicer way (at our house we say, "Can you say that again using your manners?") Sometimes it's not even what they say -- but how they say it -- that really wears you down.

Dh is quite good at diffusing situations with humor ... tickle attacks, etc. But I find, being the primary caregiver, it is a greater benefit to me to set the rules and make sure they are followed. That seems to help in the long run.

I am reading an interesting book right now about creating moral intelligence in our children. And it says how we, ourselves, react to tense situations really teaches our children about self-control. I'm trying to remember that advice during the times I feel the steam coming out of my ears!

I feel your pain. My DD 21 months can be quite bossy, and just imagine when she gets to talk more and express herself better. We did start time outs with her and it does help. I don't use it a lot but it does help. When she is doing a behavior I also tell her that she needs to stop or she is going to time out. This usually stops it. If it doesnt, she goes to her crib for a minute. That is plenty of time for her. I bring her back and try again. Other things I do is I don't argue with her, if I say no once, that means no. I try to distract at times, but if that doesn't work and she lays on the floor and throws a tantrum, I move away from her (obviously making sure she is in a safe place). It doesn't last long, it's all about attention and control for her. Also, if she keeps changing her mind and being demanding I don't give in to it. Last night she wanted a cookie (because she had gotten one the night before for a treat). You should have heard the way she was saying "I. WANT. COOKIE!" It cracked me up the way she paused in between. Thankfully I don't laugh about it in front of her..but I do chuckle with DH at times when she doesn't see. Don't want to confuse her too much.

Good luck, it will eventually pass I am pretty sure. DS4 wasn't quite this bad but he has his moments..but since he is older they are few and far between.

I had one child that a time-out had to be away from people (my extrovert), and one for whom it needed to be a tight embrace (my introvert). Not a hug, really, but a tight hold to let him get control of his overwhelming emotions. We started them as soon as emotions ran high, so earlier than 29 months, I'm sure.

In both cases, we treated it as a "time out from the opportunity to do what you're doing until you can control yourself." When self-control returned, the time out ended. Period. None of that "1 minute per year of age" stuff. To me, that's about punishment, and that's not positive discipline. I focused on the time out strictly as a tool for getting past the overwhelming emotions, which is why they were acting out. I wanted to reward self-control, since to me, that's the ultimate goal of a time out.

We rarely use time outs now, since even the 4.5yo is much more able to manage his emotions. If they are overwhelmed now, it's usually because they are hungry or tired. Then I give them a time out while I get a snack together.

Kriston, it sounds like you were rather satisfied with the results? Maybe this has been my problem all these years??? My kids all tend toward being introverted - in some cases to the extreme - and time outs really have never worked (not that I have stopped trying). Now ds2 (2y10m) has taken to having some of the biggest tantrums I've ever seen, and it's clearly a complete loss of control (last time he ended up stripping naked and trying to go outside when it was cold). I'm sure he'd yell and scream if I tried to hold him, and he's pretty strong (and I'm a little bit preggo and often holding the baby besides) so it's not a very appealing strategy at the moment but I suppose it's worth a try! Most of the time he's very good but once in awhile we run into trouble. Thanks for the introversion/extroversion tip!

Is it just me? I swear I am always finding myself nodding my head when I read Kriston's post. I completely agree with the purpose of timeout. We hardly ever use timeouts so when we do use it she sees it as punishment. I have to admit a few times it was to help calm her down but usually I can talk her down. When she does get a timeout it is more for when she completely disregarded rules and knows better. I can count how many times she has had a timeout. I have friends that live by supernanny and are always using the timeouts to the point that the child acts out even more than before the timeout starts. One friend's DD had a playdate with my DD and it was so over the top how many timeouts she gave her in that short time frame. More than my DD has ever gotten during her whole life! And it wasn't working, clearly.

But I fully believe timeouts have their place along as not over used and people know when the child no longer needs it and other methods should be considered. I see timeouts as the last result when other things are not working.

I watched some show on PBS (I think) when my first was just a newborn that talked about time outs as I described them and said that they should not be--never be!--punishment. (No idea who the guy was or what the show was called. It happened to be on when I was breastfeeding every day.) His theory made such sense to me. And, yes, for the most part, the time outs of this nature worked very, VERY well for us.

DS4--the extrovert--is also my *profoundly* OE kid, so he has ultimately needed more coping tools to learn self-control. Time outs still work, but he's old enough now that I want to move beyond them except in exceptional circumstances, you know? They never worked as well for him as they did for my older child, the introvert...

My very logical DS7 learned very early how to rein himself in. There for a while when he was around 2yo, he would tell me when he needed a time out, he'd crawl on my lap, I'd hold him tightly, and then when he'd gotten through it, he'd say he was okay and get up. It just felt like it was a very healthy and positive approach for him. He was very aware of how he felt and what he needed emotionally. Was that just how he was or how he was parented? A little of both, I'm guessing. He never had the tremendous OEs that many GT kids had, so that certainly helped.

But I really do find that focusing on the lack of control rather than on the behavior per se makes it easier to handle outbursts. When you realize that these kids are just completely overwhelmed by how they feel, it makes more sense. I certainly find it easier to be sympathetic--which I tend NOT to be!--when I think about it that way, and the tantrums tend to end faster when I approach it from the standpoint of "how can I help you get control?" rather than when I just get angry and frustrated about them.

Sadly, I reacted in the latter manner for more than I care to admit with DS4. He was a real challenge for me! It's all a learning experience, isn't it?

My DS3 has the most amazing temper tantrums, truly amazing! For a while I tried time-out, ignoring etc to no avail. Then one day for some reason it struck me as funny. He threw himself down, started stomping his feet and screaming. I laid down on the floor right next to him and started doing the same thing. Asked him if I was doing it right? Did I need to yell louder? He stopped mid scream, jumped up to his feet like I'd grown an extra head, then curled up next to me, patted my arm and told me it was ok. Since that day, his tantrums have been very small and very infrequent. Still don't know why it worked, but it did!

Oneisenough, I could have written your post nearly word for word.

Luckily I do find myself laughing about it all some days.

This month is particularly hard because my DH is working 6 days a week, sometimes 7 with travel out of town sprinkled in. That makes for a very thread bare me.

I was chuckling, reading over these posts, thinking evolution has it all figured out. Just at the time toddlers are needing more independence, their bossy demands and mood swings allow us to want to cut those apron strings and get as far away from them as possible. LOL

You helped him to behold himself!!

Sometimes Mr W shrieks too much and I shriek with him. He laughs at me and stops it for the day.

I'd use this one with caution -- my ds6, even as a 4-year-old, would have been mortally offended that I wasn't taking him seriously! He really *feels* his emotions -- I can't put it in a clearer way than that. Even if it's a melt-down over a seemingly minor thing, he still meant it at the time.

However, the holding thing ... snowgirl, if your little one is stripping down and going outside in the cold, then yes, I think physical limits are appropriate. Occasionally, when ds-the-3-or-4 was having an all-out fit, holding him tightly was the only way to get him to settle; he'd have thrashed around and really hurt himself, and the physical boundaries helped him calm down once he realized he wasn't going to win. Yes, he'd yell and scream and thrash, and he was strong, but it was at least keeping him safe. And physical safety is the first thing kids need to know -- even if it makes him unhappy, even if he hates me (briefly) for doing it, my very first job as a parent is to keep his body safe.

We also have a "No means no" policy. Even if I realize later that whatever I said "no" to probably wasn't worth the fight, I don't break lines -- the answer is what it is, and no bargaining, whining or wheedling is going to change that. If there *is* a choice, I try to make that clear from the beginning and not say no! It's taken some training of me to remember not to say "maybe" if the answer will be no, and to say no only when I really mean it, so I can effectively enforce it.

I don't get angry very often, since that usually inflames the disagreement rather than diffusing it. I think I can count the number of times I've really raised my voice at him on one hand (and he deserved it!). I try to save raised voices for saftey issues (running into the street, etc.), because if there's a lot of yelling kids don't know when the yelling really matters. He needs to know that if I yell, I'm frightened for his safety or some equally important reason.

Bottom line is, I'm the parent, and there are some decisions I make for him. If he doesn't like them -- well, that's really too bad. That's not to say I make all decisions for him, or even most. But if it's a health or safety or values issue, then he just has to deal with it -- "talking back" repeatedly will get a time-out at his age. It's not appropriate if it's been made clear that there will be no discussion on the topic.

When he was smaller, he'd get redirected. If he was going after a plug, we'd move and find something more fun to do together, and he'd forget. If he was gunning for a cookie, I'd offer a different, healthy snack. If he wanted it, great! If not, oh well. I'm not having a toddler dictate to me what he will and will not have, when.

But there are battles that aren't worth fighting -- he'd stay up in bed reading until 9:30 or 10 pm as a 3yo and my parents thought I was nuts for letting him "stay up" past 8:30. That one wasn't worth a fight to me, and if he was quiet in his room, I didn't have a problem with it.

Really, I think it comes down to the parent deciding which limits are worth enforcing, and which aren't. Ds6 is a very polite, well-behaved child (in public ) and I think it comes from being fairly consistent with him at home.

I love the redirecting but sadly it doesn't work with my DD. She has a mind like an elephant. She never forgets a thing to the point of shocking. We can go somewhere and never go back for months and she will tell me something that lets me know she remembers what the store is for or where things are in the store. So redirecting her from a plug or some other unsafe thing just doesn't work for her. However, lucky for me she gets that it is dangerous and leaves the outlets alone. B/c if she didn't I would really have my hands full.

Have others experienced this with their toddlers? I am wondering if the memory and determination thing is part of gifted or just that she is weird. I still ponder if she has a picture perfect memory. She will tell us about things that happen back before she was 16 months old. Just out of the blue she brings something up and it isn't something we talk about.

Mia, I completely agree with everything you wrote there!

The limits especially are VITAL. I always say that if your "no" doesn't mean NO, then a child doesn't believe that your "Yes" means yes...or that your "I love you" is true either. I think that's why kids crave limits and consistency. It's about trusting the parent. They really do want "no" to mean no!

Just to emphasize the point, there are a couple of GT kids I know whose parents are utter pushovers. Nice people, but the kids run the show. It makes me crazy when they are at my house! And the fact is, the kids are much better behaved after an aftenoon with me because I don't put up with it. It tells me that their behavior is all about lack of limits. At my house, they know the limits, and they act much better than they do around their parents.

Your post also reminded me of something else that really worked for us on a tantrum, Mia.

If DS7 threw a toy (or otherwise misbehaved with it), I would take it away, as any parent would do. But the trick was that I took it away for a *very short time*--a matter of seconds for a 2yo!--and then gave it back. In essence, he was in time out from the opportnity to use that toy. But he learned to use it properly because I gave him another chance very soon afterward. If he threw the toy again, I took it away again, and then gave it back again. And so on. This didn't happen very many times before he realized that he'd have more fun if he followed instructions the first time. It provides lots of chances to learn in a very short span of time.

It worked on DS4 as well, though as always, it required more time and effort on my part because of his less logical and more volatile nature. But it did work.

FWIW...

Well, the trick with redirection is that you have to be firm and consistent about it -- if she keeps going back, keep saying, "No, that's not a toy. Let's find something else to do" and removing her and giving her something else interesting to do. She may get mad. But you have to do it over and over if she keeps going back or doing what she shouldn't be. It gets old fast, but she's *trying* to wear you down. Show her you won't be worn down!

Yup. Lots of chances to learn!

I guess we use it differently. I don't think time out used one minute per age can be very positive discipline if used effectively. I don't (or at least haven't to my knowledge) used time out for tantrums or behavior outbursts. well, at least not specific time outs. Now that DS4 is older I may send him up to his room until he is ready to be bearable to be around...no specific time limit on that one. Tantrums don't really happen too much, but with DS if they happen I just tell him that I will talk with him when he calms down, and then I usually leave the room. With DD21 months I just step away from her. She really doesn't do much, just stomps for a second and she is done. With DS4 when he does something completely unacceptable he sits for a couple minutes, but it is "___ quiet minutes" I do use one minute for age and that works for us. I use it for them to know a behavior is not acceptable. It defeats the purpose if they scream for their time out and then you say "times up, you can get up now" The way I use it, they are calm and then we do a 15 second recap and it's over (recap meaning...what happened, what could you do different next time,) With DD she is way to little. If I will use it for if she screams repeatedly...or something like that. She gets it because after a minute of time out she doesn't do it anymore. I also use time out from objects (ie: if you are banging your cup on the table, your cup takes a little time out). It all works well for us.

Maybe it's just how I've seen it used. No offense intended.

thank you all for these wonderful replies...lots to think about. I agree with those of you that question my sending her to her room. It didn't feel right and it didn't work AT ALL. what has worked so well that past couple of days is basically not making her rude comments a big deal. So in the store today she yelled once and I said to her "I don't yell at you, so please don't yell at me." And that was the end of it. At the till she asked for a book that she had been looking at in the cart. I told her that we were just looing at it in the store and it wasn't to take home. I told her we had a lot of other new books at home that we hadn't looked at a lot yet and I told her it was $15 which was too much money for that book (and it was!). Well, she said very rudely "no, I said I want this book and i want it right now." I was unloading the shopping cart while she was saying this, so I kind of brushed it off and said "C----, that is rude, and the answer is still no." and that was the end of that.

My question is...is my not making a big deal out of something like that basically spoiling her and not giving her boundaries? I know it was good that at least I didn't give in and buy the book, but what about talking more about the language and tone of voice she used?

What do you think?

Oh gosh, no -- I've always used a very matter-of-fact tone with stuff like that -- "Nope, no books today!" and move on. Making a big deal out of it makes it worse, imo -- showing her that you won't be rattled no matter what tone she uses will teach her that being rude doesn't help her get her way.

Carry on and calmly set those limits! There will be times when she has enormous fits over not getting the book -- hold tight and know that limits are good for her, and she's not experienced enough to set her own limits yet.

No offense taken : ) I didn't take it as personal just wanted to share what we do. You have a good point, I have clearly seen it misused as well. I also think it is sad when kids just think that they shouldn't do something because they may have to go to time out, and not that it is a wrong thing to do. Of course some of that is developmental. Little kids usually think of things in terms of how it affects them.

And I do tend to jump aboard the freight train of my own thought and just keep going. That doesn't mean what works for us will work for everyone--or anyone!--else! It may not always seem like it, but I *do* know that.

So thanks for sharing!

No, it sounds like you handled the book and screaming situation great. You have to pick your battles. At that age it is more about limits...when they get a little older you can work on tone of voice ; ) When they get older they can understand the concept of "I don't answer you unless you speak in an appropriate tone" (ie: don't scream at me, don't call names and make demands, don't whine about it, etc.) At a younger age that is kind of hard to get and hard for them to control as well.

Yup. I completely agree. There's a BIG difference between being calm and being a pushover. If she doesn't rattle you, that signals to her that you're in control of YOUR emotions, so your words and deeds match up.

I'd say calm and firm/unyielding is the ideal, actually. So pat yourself on the back!

We are always very matter of fact in our responses to our children. I refuse to get in a screaming match. My older kids get sent to their rooms for being disrespectful if they raise their voices, the discussion continues later when it can be just that, a discussion.

For my littles, if they don't like my answer an they throw themselves on the floor, that's ok. I'm quite capable of stepping over a tantrum. It doesn't take them long to figure out that it doesn't work.

My parents had a rule that the loudest one was always wrong. I haven't used it, but I think there's some wisdom there...

I agree that sometimes you have to use different parenting styles with different kids. A one size fits all approach doesn't always work with kids. I think it is good for parents to be able to show that they are frustrated and that sometimes they need a time out (or time away) too. It also shows kids that it is okay for them to take a time away from a situation when they get frustrated. Good modeling. My DS4 was being quite obnoxious on Saturday, I really tried to work with him but finally I just said "listen, I love you lots...but when you whine and complain about everything it makes it not fun to be around you...I would love to spend time with you, but not when you are so miserable...so please leave the room and feel free to come back whenever you are ready to have a nice day together." I had ignored him for a while, and I had encouraged him to not whine so much...but it just wasn't working. And after I tried that it seemed to work. I also try teaching him to use his words and ask him about what is going on...but it's hard for kids to figure out sometimes.

I still don't find yelling appropriate or helpful, but some reaction to explain how you feel at times I think can be helpful if done in the right way. It teaches them empathy and how their behaviors effect other people. Sometimes parents can take the ignoring behavior to the extreme. There are times when you need to address the behavior and how you feel about the behavior.

LOL. That's pretty good. It does have some truth for sure. I went to a training in the fall and there was a similar quote that I can't quite remember. It was something like "the first one to yell is the first one to run out of options."

Many of the kids that I get in my home aren't sure how to react unless they are being yelled at. It takes some time to convince them that you can work things out without all the noise. We are big talkers, even with the littles.

That's great! I think that it is really hard for some people not to yell when that is what they know (both kids and adults). I know everyone's temperament is different, and I really feel for those who that really struggle with this. Discussions are much more productive when voices aren't raised. I am thankful I don't have this issue. Maybe it's partly the field I am in, how I was raised, or just my overall temperament. But yelling isn't an issue for me.

I find it interesting Shari that when you take a child out of a home where they have been yelled at constantly (or not even yelled at, but just constant yelling), and you put them in an environment where that doesn't happen...how hard and confusing that is for them. Often times these kids will try to start arguments just to feel more comfortable. It makes things seem more real and it's all they know. That is wonderful that you are able to not give in and teach them other ways.

It's not as hard as you might think. They are entitled (at least in my house) to an opinion. Once they realize that someone is actually listening, they tend to let the yelling go.

Yup, that's what we do, too: talk first, decide second, then stand firm. It's open for discussion until it's decided. Then no more talk.

I say great job to you and that is not being a push over. DD use to try that with me. Forever I would give her something in the cart to play with but tell her we are not buying it. And on occasion she would argue that she wanted it, but I never gave in. Most of the time I would respond once and ignore the rest. Now when we go to the store and she gets something to look at she tells me that it is just for her to look at and we are not buying it and never argues the point. So keep doing what you are doing and she should come around to acceptance in no time.

Master of None, I think your points are very, very important.

LOL.

DW has been working on a contract for several weeks now. She told me tonight that:

"If someone from the other side leaves happy after a negotiation, then I left something on the table. The deal is best when neither side is happy."

Has some truth to it.

I'd have to agree.

Mr W is very intense some times. He can be very demanding and when he takes it into the car seat, it can be very frustrating to have him back talking and screeching while you are trying to drive.

Last weekend he was just over the top and I pulled over, turned around and glared at him, told him that I expected better of him, he was not being fair to me, and that when we arrived, he would have my undivided attention.

It worked!!!! I saw a guilty look on his face for the next 10 minutes and he was quiet until we got to the bookstore.

IMHO there is an emotional component to communicating and that can resonate with him.