OK, I knew DS4 was a little "off" in his cognitive vs social/emotional development, and recent events have just solidified it.

He took the PPVT, and scored... I don't have it in front of me right now, but he scored in the 99.7th percentile or something like that. I have no real desire or need to get him tested any further at this point (everyone at his preschool gets tested because they get grant funding and need to test the kiddos for that purpose), but I think it's a good indication that he is, at the very least, a pretty smart cookie. The adding and subtracting and fraction-getting and reading and writing... also good indications.

His "self-help" was all right, and probably will get better this summer (we do a lot of the dressing stuff because he's such a space cadet; if we waited for him to button his pants we'd get everyone to school/work/babysitter at somewhere around noon) when we have the time to just let him practice and do stuff for himself. And even if it doesn't improve a lot this summer, I'm fine with that. He's the stereotypical "absentminded smart kid." Probably gets it from me.

And then there's his social/emotional score. Granted, it was based on my observations and reporting, and I might be a bit of a "harsh grader," but he scored, ladies and gentlemen, in the 8th percentile for kids his age. The cutoff score for "OK" is the 7th percentile, so he's BARELY doing all right.

He still has trouble transitioning between activities, even with ten-five-one minute warnings, and clear expectations of how "leaving nicely" or "putting it away nicely" looks. He hits when he's angry... but only at home. We put him in time-out when he starts raging, mostly just to give everyone a break, he refuses to stay in time-out. We pick him up from preschool, he leaves happily (which is actually a big step... for the first half of the year we literally had to stuff him into his coat and carry him out kicking and screaming). Then he finds out what we're having for dinner, or what we're going to do or not do that evening, or something else... and it absolutely sets him off. We drive home with him kicking the seat back and wailing.

I know that people usually look at the "immature gifted kid" and see a kid who is gifted but then average in the social or emotional sense and therefore looks immature compared to his cognitive and/or academic abilities... but this is awful. He KNOWS that he'll get to play his computer game again. He knows that even though it's not the pot stickers he wanted, he also enjoys fried chicken and broccoli. And yet... the meltdowns continue.

Tell me it gets better? Or tell me to get him help? I dropped him off at preschool today in tears (me in tears, not him).

Oh, sweetie. I can just hear how stressed you are (and you sound just like me when DD was that age). I do think that a visit with a neuropsych might help, and your test numbers certainly should qualify you to ask for help. I wish we'd taken DD8 to a doctor at that age, instead of waiting until now.

I can tell you that it does get better, but it also gets worse. That is, the behavior gets more manageable, but the stakes also get higher, and tolerance of differences gets lower. At least, that's my experience. Good luck, and do keep us updated.

I CAN get better, you are where I was four years ago. Each year gets slightly better than the last, but they're never the same as the vast majority of their age peers. I think the goal is to keep them on a good track until they find their niche. So much easier said that done, of course!

Even the time-out situation sounds familiar! I used to get so irritated when a neighbor used to go on about our next-door neighbor's daughter who was sooo good, sooo perfect blah blah blah and how when she was a toddler, her mother used to tell her to sit on the bottom step to take a time out, the girl would go there, sit for the duration, and be "fixed" (this perfect girl is now off in college and from her online presence quite the party girl and not shy with her tweets!!)

This is my practical non-clinical advice (I don't want to advise about the testing etc., there are others who are more expert at that):

Concentrate on a good school fit, and don't force a bad fit over a long period of time. This has been super hard for us and ongoing.

Look into DYS when he's 5 or so, don't wait too long because the testing data will "expire".

Put ALOT of time/money/energy into his passions (I'm sure he has them) as they come and go and try to share with him, find other kids to be with who have some of these things in common. This is probably one of the most important things you can do for his intellectual development and self-esteem.

Try to connect him safely with lots of different adults in the world of his passions (for my DD it's pretty much settled into science, LEGOs/architecture, animals, and singing...) Museum classes are always a good bet to try, or any get-togethers with a local or regional gifted association. You'll learn to really see a tremendous difference in how people will talk to him and react to him in different environments.

Ignore all dirty, stern looks and comments from people who have absolutely no idea what it's like to live with and raise a child like this (this can include relatives, friends, neighbors as well as complete strangers).

Embrace any compliment or advice from people who've been there or can see his potential, even if it's just a blip of an encounter from a stranger.

Take time for yourself. Doesn't have to be a fancy ordeal, you just need to do your favorite relaxing thing and not have to worry about where your child is, how he's doing, etc. (this is why it's hard for me to regenerate/regroup during school hours).

Even though it's so hard to be on the receiving end of this intensity, he's a big-intellect kid in a little body and it really is hard for him. In my opinion, that intensity is there as part of the package to power him along in his journey, whatever it's meant to be.

Enjoy him and work on being his best champion and it will definitely pay off.

Seconding ElizabethN: I think a neuropsych workup is a good idea.

Meltdowns, difficulty with transitions and slowness in learning self-care can be aspects of autism spectrum disorders. I think it's worth seeing what you can find out, so you'll have a clearer path to solving these problems.

DeeDee

p.s. and watch his diet...sometimes the little passionate ones are more sensitive to food dyes, additives, etc. so if you haven't done this already read up on it and watch him closely if you take stuff out/add it, etc. That's why birthday parties were such a nightmare when she was little!!

Thanks so much, everyone. I'll look at a psych work-up once we're settled back in the Lower 48 (we'll be moving next month) and, like, have health insurance and stuff. We haven't even started packing or throwing our house/life into chaos for moving yet; I'm terrified of what that will bring out.

I've thought about ASD in the past, but he doesn't meet any of the *major* signs. ADD (inattentive) or ADHD seem to be possibilities; his self-care relative deficiency is mostly a case of "it takes too long to have him do it himself" or "he'll wander away with it half-done, or done poorly." For example, he probably CAN button buttons, or could if given more of a chance to do it, but if I asked him to button a shirt, we'd be there all morning. He *IS* fairly capable of brushing his teeth, but I still need to supervise and go over them again because he'll just lose focus and start frolicking in the sink or something rather than finishing his teeth.

bzylzy, your experience with time-outs sounds similar to mine. I see my friends give their kids time-outs, and the kid just walks over, sits for a minute, then comes back. I give Isaac a time-out and it involves physically hauling him, and then him getting up, making a nasty face, and saying, "See? I can get up!" Lather, rinse, repeat. I'm not entirely sure what I can offer up as a consequence at this point.

Funny thing is, at school, they rarely have a problem with him. Occasionally he has difficulty transitioning between activities, but not to the same degree.

Oh you poor thing. Your DS sounds a lot like my DS11 who is HG, ADHD and dysgraphic. I remember SO vividly a 6 month stretch back when he was about 4 when he absolutely refused to wash his hands for dinner. I had a little step stool, liquid soap and me stationed right beside him for dinner hadnwashing. I would say "Time to wash hands for dinner." and this horrible news produced a huge meltdown every day. For months. He also had trouble with transitions, bath time, teeth brushing, arrgh, arrgh.

It does get better but so slowly that you don't really notice until one day you think "Hey, what happened to the hand-washing tantrums?" I remember four as the pinnacle of difficulty-toddler type tantrums with preschool staying power.

Hang in there. It will get better but your son will likely always lag behind. A neuropsych eval is a great idea. Keep a close eye on the social side of school where your son will struggle. I have found that the crystal ball question that tells about how school is going socially is "who did you play with at recess?"

That's interesting about the school not having the same issues. I'd try to find out more to figure out why before you leave.

My DH and I have shook our heads many a time about consequences. Even when something does work, it usually only lasts about 2 weeks.

When my DD was tested at age 4.5 her visual-auditory learning age equivilant was ">19" and her language and reasoning ability is so advanced. Every day, many times over, you have to remind yourself of their chronological age. Limits and boundaries are really what they need, just like all kids, but the whats/hows are the hard part, and it's hard to find people to ask who can really help you (except here).

Good luck with the move. If it's exciting and you talk about geography and stuff, get out the maps, he might really enjoy it. Give him some jobs, my DD always loves being put to work.

Ooof! I've so been there...It does get better. My daughter still doesn't like transitions but she copes much better. 5 was probably the worst, but by 8 she's an angel (mostly!) Some things that worked for me...

* shove protein into child's mouth as soooooon as you get them into the car after pick-up; don't even allow them to talk until they've eaten something;
* dump time-outs and consider alternative discipline methods like 1-2-3 magic. This worked OK for us, but you've got to tap into the child's currency.
* break the cycle by interrupting the routine. Catching the bus for a week broke the habit of getting into the car after pick up and storming all the way home.
* increase physical exercise after school so that the child has a way of healthy processing all of their pent up frustration. School can be a very frustrating place to be! My daughter needs at least 2 hrs of exercise a day after school, sometimes more... Gymnastics/diving/acro/bike riding ... are all great for this.

And give yourself a break! This too shall pass...

I think it's peer pressure. He REALLY enjoys hanging out with the other kids, and being one of the youngest, he sort of idolizes everyone. All of them. They can bring him over by playing up all the fun that everyone is having. His teacher will say, "Isaac, I know you're having fun doing abc, but if you're not over here in by the time I'm done counting to ten, we'll start doing xyz without you." Unlike at home, his peers starting something without him is enough to suck him away from whatever is holding his attention.

We're moving back to a place where we already own a home, and a place we have gone to every summer of his life. He loves finding Alaska and Wisconsin on a map or globe and showing how you get from one to the other.

Yeah, we attempt the food thing, but have been lax lately. Time to get back on that train.

I think next year will be better. He's in a full-day preschool this year (for childcare purposes). Next year, he's attending 4k in Wisconsin, but it's a half day program. I'll be able to monitor how much he's eating at lunch (most days he wolfs down a few appealing items and then hurries off to play), and then make sure he sleeps. He HATES to nap, but really needs it. They have an hour "rest" time, but it's not really enough.

The physical activity thing is a valid point. They get a lot of large motor time at school, but more is never a bad idea. Now that spring has finally sprung, I can at least send him out into our little back "yard" (aka dirt patch) to dig a hole or something while we make dinner. Kid loves diggin' holes. We just got in the habit of NOT going outside because it was a long, seriously cold winter this year. I think we had one day above zero during the month of January.

I know the time-outs aren't working, and I do need to find something else. I mostly just want him to go sit on his bed because we both need a break... but getting him to stay there causes us both more frustration.

The being the younger kid at school makes alot of sense to me...my DD is like that also. She does try alot harder, and "proves" she is capable of having control over herself, when there are older kids.

I bet you'll have a fun summer and the 1/2 day 4K sounds good. I like the "shoving protein" thing, it's so true. I won't let DD go to school or anything "important" without that, and she really needs it for morning snack too.



Maybe if you feel more relaxed in the WI setting he'll feel better too. We can't help it, but sometimes the vibes we send out actually fuel the fire. I am very conscious of it, but sometimes life (and personal upbringing issues you have to deal with yourself!) gets in the way. But we do our best.

Today DD told me I was very beautiful and gave me a sweet kiss and a big long hug.

: - )

This paragraph, all of it. Thanks.

This sounds SO much like my Bear (now 5). I started looking into help for him just before he turned 3. I was faced with a whole lot of, "Yup, there's something wrong, but it's not bad enough or enough check marks on this list for us to help you." He has been tested for nearly everything in the book at this point and falls short of all of it by a check mark or two at the most.

The tantrums were helped a lot by using the occupational therapy technique called the Wilbarger brushing protocol (if I remember the name correctly). He went from over an hour tantrums every day or two (on top of about ten fifteen minute ones every day) to one fifteen minute one about once a week and only about 5 short ones a day.

Once he is comfortable in a group setting he behaves well there, but then loses it at home, often for MUCH longer than he was in the group setting. As far as I've managed to figure out it is because he is subconsciously anxious and worried about getting along with people, adjusting to new experiences, etc. Once he is at home, he is "safe" and all the stress can come out.

He NEEDS to eat regularly or it's all over.

This is the kid I used to have to pin down to brush his teeth. Then he'd just fuss. Finally just a month or so ago he is brushing on his own, rinsing and spitting. Getting dressed was the same thing. It just seems to take him longer to mature in some areas than other.

Sounds very familiar. In some ways, our 19 month-old who barely talks (but understands EVERYTHING) is more emotionally mature than Isaac is. It's mind-boggling sometimes.

Last night was a better night. This morning was a better morning. Tomorrow is my last day of work. I'm hoping we can decompress and relax over the summer.

You said four, right? It will probably get a lot better. I recall our ped, who admittedly didn't see the way dd13 behaved at home, telling me that, if they were still throwing huge tantrums at five, they'd suggest looking into it further. Up until then, it was expected.

In our house, tantrums looked like:

* it took two strong adults to get dd buckled into her car seat b/c she was arching her back and screaming hysterically
* the neighbors thought that I was abusing the kid b/c she screamed so loud and for hours at a time (and often this happened multiple times/day)
* I felt like there was no warning; she's just blow up over things that were intense to her emotionally or when things just got to be too much

Other parents told me to watch for clues of when she was getting tired or burned out but there weren't any. She's just flip and be inconsolable. She bit me, tried to choke me, screamed that she was going to pee on the floor and then do it... (some of this was getting better by your ds' age and she was lovely at preschool, just difficult like this for me).

At 13.5, she is a truly wonderful kid. She's been a truly wonderful kid for quite some time actually. She's also very mature and is usually assumed to be quite a bit older than her age. I don't think that it is only b/c she is grade skipped and placed with older kids that others think that she is older, though. She just comes across like an adult in talking to her except with dh, with whom she is still a real pain.

eta: in reading other parts of the thread, I did want to say that the only reason we could surmise as to why our dd was so much more challenging at home than preschool was a safety issue in her mind. She felt safe enough with me to know that I wasn't going to beat her for acting like that. Around strangers, she was on her good behavior and then just let down her emotional barriers at home.

I did like the book, Raising Your Spirited Child, when she was younger too. It's been a long time, but I recall that it had good advice for challenging, intense kids. I didn't realize that gifted was part of the picture at the time.

My little one also sounds similar, specially the with other people she is well behaved but walk into the house it all changes. The one thing that I have done that kind of works, is to time out me or the cat, or the toy rather than the kid.

Cricket- our two older ones sound so similar and some of our journey.. I too in the beginning had no idea of gifted and the surviving until they are five... and she now is treated as older by all partly due to looks and partly due to her conversational abilities.

You're welcome, smacca. (insert smiling emote that I haven't figured out how to do yet)

Too bad we all don't live on the same street.

My DD was intense from birth. Eventually they can channel it, all going well. That's part of why we're all here on this forum, to learn from each other how to do it.

Cricket2, my dd did that seat thing. And I'm so glad to hear how she's turning out.

For a multi-month stretch, maybe when DD was 4 (older than a toddler but not in K yet) I had to sit in the back seat with her, after an episode where she took off her seatbelt on an interstate, and we had to pull over and I had to get back there etc. etc. After that, for months, I was so nervous when I was alone with her, me driving, and didn't go very far for a good long while. She did it about 3 times in all during a rip-roaring intense tantrum that appeared to come out of nowhere.

She outgrew it, stage completely vanished, but those months were soooo tough.

Of course I really do believe in guardian angels!