We got DGS6 tested and got the results today. The tester used WISC III instead of WISC IV and his scores are all over the map. I was told that the WISC III is not very reliable for 6yo? Is that true?

Tester wants to redo the test with Woodcock Johnson III both the cognitive and achievement. Does it test the same things, is it better for younger children? I researched the WISC IV and then found out she did III and feel a little lost. Also, she believes it (maybe vastly) underestimated his actual IQ due to very low processing speed. e.g. Similiarities score was 19, but information was 7. Picture Arrangement was 17, Coding was 7. His processing speed calculated at the 3rd percentile! But his overall perceptual reasoning was in the 82nd percentile with the low coding score figured in.

We are being referred for further testing for ASD, ADHD or dyslexia. She believes he has an LD of some type that is keeping us from accurately testing his IQ. He exhibited a very short attention span, but she was able to keep him on task fairly well. She also said he is very young and may be a late bloomer in terms of test taking.

So, my questions:
What does Woodcock Johnson test that WISC does not?
Where do we go from here? I went for answers and came back with more questions, and no real answers.

Leahchris

we just got both tests done. I must say I'm so glad that we did. Due to whatever goes on in my son's brain, his WISC scores are ALL over the place despite having an high FSIQ and PG subscore. The WJIII, which measures many areas showed that he is performing 90+percentiles in almost all areas, but what was valuable is seeing where is he IS NOT, so that we can address those areas. Despite not having any "labeled" LD, the two tests in conjunction revealed his "relative weaknesses" which I think will ultimately be very helpful.

This sounds very confusing, my initial response is that I would almost certainly retest, but not under any circumstances with the person who thought it was ok to use the WISC III in the first place - a test that is out of date enough that the WISC V is currently being normed. Although I would not be inclined to fully trust the results you have now, I would definitely consider the scatter and the other issues that may be at play and be very sure to find a 2E specialist this time around because it certainly sounds like he has strengths and weaknesses in there.

Hi Leahchris,

I am just wondering from this comment " I was told that the WISC III is not very reliable for 6yo" if you mean that they used the WPPSI III? That is a current Wechsler test (as is the WISC IV), but might have ceiling issues for a 6yo I believe (but it is less of an issue if they used the WPPSI III than them using the WISC III, which has MumOfThree said, is well and truly out of date).

If it is the WPPSI people might have different advice, that's all

Giftodd

Excellent point giftodd. Definitely worth clarifying if it was the WPPSI 3, which it is true is not great for a gifted 6 yr old.

Tester used the WISC-III. Really. I am meeting with the school psychologist hopefully today to see what the school can offer in terms of testing. Our local school does not have a good track record with special needs and a terrible track record with 2e kids. We are looking at our options.

Through our local university library I was able to get some useful information on the reliability of the scatter on the WISC-III test. The perceptual subtest scatter range was found in half of all the normed (gifted and non-gifted) testers. However, the Verbal Comprehension range was found in less than 3% of all the normed testers. So, it is clinically significant.

So, my next question is, with severe processing deficits, is the WJ-III abilities test going to be any more accurate? Does it have something similar to the GIA for the WISC-IV?

BTW, the reason the tester is not at all confident with the IQ score (barely below gifted) is that with his terrible processing he is still at the top kindergarten student in not only his class, but the school. He has learned to read and can do above-level math. She said he is compensating with his intelligence for his LD.

The wild scatter is definitely something I'd worry about. However, I wouldn't be too sure as to whether the scatter is valid. Given the Flynn effect and that the WISC-III is almost two versions outdated since they're moving onto the WISC-V in the next year, I believe, I wouldn't personally be too confident that the high scores aren't a bit inflated as well making the scatter perhaps lesser than it appears at face value.

I'm not familiar with the WJ-III cognitive, but am wondering if you've looked @ the SB-V b/c it isn't timed and might, thus, be better for a child with a processing speed deficit.

Were you told before the testing that the WISC-III would be used, and that it was a non-current test? If you weren't, I'd ask for my money back.

Ditto.

I'm curious, if the WISC III were used, would they have to wait a full year before the WISC IV (or V) can be administered?

I wouldn't discount the WISC III simply because it was an older test. These tests change very little from one version to the next, most changes you notice will be in questions designed to cater to a particular minority group to boost scores of certain groups.

The fact that he has scores all over the place could just be the result of him not taking the test seriously. You might consider taking him to be tested by someone else. If he was tested by a woman and scores were all over the place then you might find a male tester to try next time. Sometimes boys that act up and don't give it their all for a woman will do so for a man, or sometimes they work better for a woman than a man.

I have a learned a lot this week. DGS6 is a visual-spatial learner, and his processing speed is partly that and maybe an auditory processing thing. He is also being evaluated for a possible obstructive sleep apnea, which can cause all of his symptoms, including and especially the way below normal information score on the test.

I did not know bedwetting was associated strongly with ADHD, dyslexia and OSA in children. I happened upon an article by chance and now know this may be a strong clue as to why his scores are what they are.

herenow - Several testers have said they can administer the WISC-IV, but I think the SB5 is probably the best with his processing speed, but we may go ahead with the WJ-III. Nothing is for sure until we get the possible medical issues dealt with.

Thanks for all your replies.

The norms become inaccurate over time, which is a big reason that the norms have to be updated every so often; it's not done just to cater to minority groups as you suggest. The WISC-III is about to become two revs out of date. In addition it's likely that many programs wouldn't accept such an old test-- Davidson doesn't, for instance. The tester simply shouldn't be using such an outdated, outmoded test, especially if there wasn't full disclosure up front.

Our school won't accept the WISC-III either. They said they will need more testing to see if he qualifies for any services - gifted or LD. I did not pay a whole lot for the test, fortunately, but I guess I got what I paid for.

One good thing about all this, is that I learned what questions to ask DGS to find out what's going on his head. Like, "Can you hear all the noise on the playground at recess?" He said he has trouble hearing when it's noisy and then piped in, while playing a video game, "I can't hear my teacher call my name in class either!"

We were talking about what he sees when "his mind goes crazy" and he said all kinds of pictures run through his mind. I then learned a little later that when he sees the word 'cat' he sees a picture of a cat with the letters on it in his head.

So at least because of the testing and his school problems, I'm learning to communicate with him in new ways. He seemed relieved when he could tell me about the hearing and the "mind goes crazy." So there is almost always a silver lining in everything.

The reality is that the tests are redone for financial reasons more than anything else. The companies selling testing material increase revenue every time they put out a new revision because it forces all the people giving the test to invest in a whole new set of testing material which usually sets them back 1000-2000 dollars depending on which test they are updating.

And yes some places will only accept the latest and greatest test for admissions, but that fact doesn't invalidate the older test for helping to identify a problem that a child has.

The reality is that the WISC-III is a thoroughly outdated test. And regardless of your feelings about minorities and testing, the results are near-worthless for use in advocacy; the norms are now out of date so the figures are suspect (you might enjoy learning about the Flynn effect, while keeping in mind that the WISC-III is now over two decades old); and it's also simply not as accurate of a tool because it doesn't have any of the latest advances.

If anyone is still using the WISC-III today, it's only because they want to save a buck. I can't find a decent rationale like there is for the continuing scattered use of the SB-LM. The WISC-III is simply an old test that shouldn't be used; and like it or not, when a person undertakes to do psychological testing for money, there are going to be expenses.

Psych testers can do whatever they like to pass along the costs of doing business to their customers, but it's just not right to test the children of know-nothing clients with an old, outdated test and no warnings.

In a way I disagree with this. WISC IV is better for kids with serious variation between intellectual strengths and slow processing speed because a GAI can be calculated, and it can help explain to people what they are seeing. Of course if your local gifted program ONLY wants to talk about FSIQ and doesn't 'get' GAI, then it's worth it to do SB-V.

HTH
Grinity

The suggestion for doing the SB came from the folks at gifteddevelopment.com in Denver. It was a only a general discussion. We are hoping to have a consult with them later this month. There is a lot of paperwork involved and we want to get the medical questions answered first.

Grinity - Can we do a WISC-IV so soon after the WISC-III? I know it was suggested by a psychologist who specializes in gifted and 2E kids and she seems to think it is okay. She is also very expensive! But, we do what we have to for our kids.

Any thoughts?

Leahchris

If you go with the GDC, just verify what version of the SB they are using. They are one of the few well known testing centers for gifted kids that advocates continued use of the SB-LM. They do have some valid reasons, but it is controversial and you may run into the same advocacy issues you'll have with the WISC-III b/c there are those who feel that it is not as valid due to the outdatedness (is that a word -- lol!) of the test.

Re how closely together one can take two different versions of the same test, opinions will probably differ, but I'd say that it is safer to err on the side of not testing on the WISC-III and WISC-IV (or V or whatever version) within one year. For instance, when I've tested kids on group tests (achievement or ability), the testing companies have generally held that I can't give one test (say the CogAT or ITBS) and then a different test (like the OLSAT or SAT-10) within a few months of one another b/c they are similar enough albeit not identical that the first test may serve as "prep" for the second making the second results less valid.

This has only come up when I've had a parent ask for a second test in quick succession b/c the first results weren't where they wanted them. That isn't what you're looking for, but I suspect that the same principle would apply.

Hopefully someone else will have some thoughts on that part of your question b/c I'm sure that opinions would vary.

I honestly don't knowwhat the exact rules areas far as retesting so soon. I agree that GDC is a great idea as long as they give SBV as the main test and maybe SBLM as an add on but I'm on of those who thinks SBLM is just too old to be enlightening in general. Your kid has so nuch scatter that you'll need a very experienced tester which is what you should get at GDC.

How long to you expect it to take to get the sleep apnea sorted out? When do you need the test results by?

Love and more love
Grinity

I honestly don't knowwhat the exact rules areas far as retesting so soon. I agree that GDC is a great idea as long as they give SBV as the main test and maybe SBLM as an add on but I'm on of those who thinks SBLM is just too old to be enlightening in general. Your kid has so nuch scatter that you'll need a very experienced tester which is what you should get at GDC.

How long to you expect it to take to get the sleep apnea sorted out? When do you need the test results by?

Love and more love
Grinity

We start the sleep apnea process on Monday. We hope to also get the hearing and vision screening done this week as he is on spring break. The audiologist at the Indian Health Services can screen for auditory processing issues.

The sleep apnea could be as simple as an x-ray of his throat and neck. In children it is usually caused by abnormally large adenoids or tonsils that are enlarged or hang down in the neck too far which can be seen with x-ray. If he has either of those they can make a clinical diagnosis without a long, traumatic sleep study. Then we have surgery and see it that works.

We don't have a deadline per se as the school will not do much this year, as he has a great teacher who is able to keep him focused much of the time. We are considering K12 homeschool through our state for next year, but we have to apply (if we want to do it free) by April 2nd. So, we are trying to get the medical questions answered by then.

Our school is trying really hard to help us. They have been great and very patient with DGS. They know he has some emotional issues to deal with, and are hoping for answers just as much as we are.

Leahchris

for sleep apnea, you can also just observe your child as they sleep. My son had severe sleep apnea at age 3 1/2 years- when he took a nap, he would quit breathing for 20-30 seconds. Yikes! I videotaped it to show the ENT. They took out his tonsils and adenoids, and that went away. Getting an audiology exam in the soundproof room is always a good idea, not a simple "screen."

jack'smom, We have a full audiology lab at the Indian Hospital. We just have to get the referral, which since IHS=socialized medicine can be difficult. But, I can outlast them and be a real "squeaky wheel" if I have to. We will go every day until we get it done!

I will try to videotape his sleep. He snores, sleeps in funny positions and has a serious bedwetting problem, which I didn't know until the end of last week was associated with the other conditions (ADHD, OSA and dyslexia). Over large adenoids run in our family and I, my daughter, and even my dad, all had to have ours out young for various reasons.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

leahchris

The latest update is that my DGS6 probably does not have sleep apnea. He will get his hearing checked on April 30 unless I can push to get him tested elsewhere. My DGS's dad, my DS, is now a full-time student and this week got DGS approved for Medicaid. So, we have more options.

Also, DGS appears to have a vision problem having to do with focusing. He has been referred to a local college of optometry for vision therapy. He has some kind of accommodative dysfunction and maybe a mild convergence issue. They said when DGS complains his "brain hurts" when reading, he really does have a headache. His eyes cannot change focus from far away to up close and near vision is compromised some.

The optometrist said several scores on the IQ test could be affected by this, such as block design, because he cannot switch focus quickly enough. So, we are waiting to see what the specialist says at the college.

FWIW, the optometrist felt the need to comment that DGS was "really smart." Not according to the WISC-III overall scores! It's frustrating to have a child with 17, 18, 19 in some areas, like abstract reasoning, and below average scores in other areas.

I did find out from the tester that he asked for a break pretty quickly in the first test - block design - one of the ones the optometrist said would be hard with his vision issues!

Thanks for reading and sorry for the long post!

leahchris, this doesn't help with your son's issues but I wanted to say I loved reading the parts about his "mind going crazy" and the picture of the cat thing. I shared with my DD and she said "my mind goes crazy too!" and she seemed amazed that there is another kid "out there" like this. It helped us talk a little about this subject that we've never had words to use.

Thanks!

DD has that issue where her hearing is very good, but if it's too noisy (or echoing) it's like she doesn't hear anything. They said when she was tested in K there isn't much to be done for her, she has learned to tolerate it over time. School is always an issue for lunch, PE, and outdoor recess. Has your son always had trouble with certain noises?

Anyway good luck.

bzylzy, my DS has a very good friend with the same auditory deficit your daughter has. She has learned sign language and communicates with that in noisy situations. My son is currently learning ASL so they can communicate better in noisy situations like noisy college student church services. I guess her whole family learned to sign and it takes some of the anxiety out of those situations.

Also, I don't know how long DGS has complained about the hearing. He is my grandson and hasn't lived with me his whole life. Also, it seems to be getting worse lately. So , we will wait to see what the audiologist says.

bzylzy, my dd10 had the same types of issues when she was very little - in her case, I think maybe her hearing was so extremely sharp that she heard just everything. She used to be very scared when we went to new places that were loud - lots of people, that kind of thing. At home we had a hard time getting her attention if there was much going on with anyone else in the house. When she started kindergarten she complained a lot about how hard it was to hear the teacher talk because of all the other noises she heard in the classroom.

Anyway, fwiw, if any of that sounds like your dd, our dd went through a listening therapy program at our local children's hospital, and it helped her SO much!

polarbear

Hmmm, very interesting about the sign language idea. That might be a very good idea, because even now she sort of regresses and will do things like point and shake her head, etc., looking like a very frustrated toddler. Maybe if she could just have the sign language to do, it would be socially acceptableand allow her to communicate what she needs when she's in these environments. I'll look into that. Thanks!

I asked her OT about auditory therapy but she didn't know much, she said I should think of ways to desensitize her, but DH is worrid by that since DD has such a good ear for music. I think there is an auditory department at the children's hospital, and there is a therapy program at a place nearby that is like a complex for all sorts of services (it started out a long time ago as an orphanage and unwed mother's home but they have tons of services now for all sorts of things).

The thing that freaks me out the most is how she'll get left behind when there is a loud bunch...the "herd" moves on and she's just left there in her own world when she doesn't hear a command. Even her teacher left her outside on the playground last year, locked out of the school. DD still blames herself when it was the teacher who was irresponsible. There has been too much negative attention on her poor "listening skills" even though we've spoken to the school about her issues.

I'll tack it on again to any findings we present from our private testing coming up in May. The kindergarten testing is old now so it's time to get something updated.

Thanks much guys.

leahchris my DD also has vision issues, but maybe not that switching focus thing, just plain old "convergence insufficiency". When she was little there would be the comment here and there about autism because if people came within a certain range she'd turn her head away rather than look straight at them. When she was a little older, she'd start saying things like people have four eyes. It wasn't until last year when this all made sense, because from about 6-8 inches in she sees double. The two "experts" she's been too disagree on things so we've not done therapy yet until we get more info. she recently got glasses for distance though and that helps.

It's hard to have a smart kiddo or g-kiddo with the dips. I have been looking at DD's old tests to revisit them and try and make sense of them, since we were rather ignorant back then and didn't have very good interpretations. Some of her WJII subtests have differences of up to 67 points from each other! It can be quite the journey as you're finding out.

bzylzy, did your DD say when or under what circumstances her "mind goes crazy?" She is a little older than DGS and they sound quite a bit alike. He tells me his mind goes crazy, but not when or what they are doing when it does. I know its a long shot, but trying to understand these asynchronous kids is a challenge. (The school wants to call him delayed or asynchronous in order to delay services for his gifted or potential LDs.)

hi leahchris. I will send you a PM to answer your question. I decided not to post it here, as some people don't really understand the bright 2E kid and I don't want DD's ideas judged.