Does anyone have experience with both the KBIT and WISC IV? I am trying to determine the reliability of the KBIT-2 (Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test). My 9yo son was assessed with a 134 composite on KBIT; The psychologist said the WISC is usually within around 4 points of the KBIT. Can anyone who has done both share their scores?, example:
KBIT = 134
WISC=130

I am trying to determine whether a full scale is necessary but the school may require it for G&T program.
Thanks!!

If you'd rather have data than anecdote, http://www.marshall.edu/etd/masters/york-jennifer-2006-ma.pdf Note that the sample size of 33 doesn't necessarily qualify this as data, though.

"Although the screening instrument, the K-BIT IQ composite and the comprehensive instrument, the WISC-IV FSIQ were highly correlated, these two tests did not yield similar scores when administered to the same student. The K-BIT provided a significantly higher score (9 points) than the WISC-IV FSIQ."

I can't tell sample size here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/7waldz3 (This is a Google Books version of "Essentials of assessment with brief intelligence tests;" the table is on page 24.)

Thanks AlexsMom! I've seen some of the correlation studies online but hoping to get some "real live" examples on the gifted forum as, like you said, the samples in the studies are generally small. If this study is in fact accurate, it sounds like my son's KBIT 134 would predict a WISC of 125. At least it's a starting point : )
Thanks!

Statistical analysis doesn't really lend itself to application to a single person, though.

Are you trying to make the case that your DS ought to be admitted to a program based on KBIT scores, rather than having to go to the effort and expense of the WISC? My anecdote there is "our test is the only one that counts."

I'm pretty positive they will not accept the KBIT alone, but I didn't want to waste the time and money on the WISC if there is a high probability that his FSIQ will be below the mark-catching my drift? Just seems painful to make him sit through three hours of testing if it is not going to get him into the program.... I know every child is different, just thought I might be able to get a better idea based on others experiences : ) It's been kind of a pain even going down this road...our public school system uses the Cogat alone for gifted screening and he missed the mark on that-I later found out he did not complete any subtests but answered all attempted questions correctly : ( wondering if it's worth it to pursue further with WISC. There is a chance that the school psychologist will do a full battery for him but I am not sure what instrument she would be using. Thanks again for your replies - I am new to this forum and still finding my way on all the testing/screening etc!

Was it the KBIT or the KBIT-2 he took? AFAICT, one issue with the KBIT is that it's an old test (normed in 1990); the KBIT-2 was normed in 2004. So there should be a smaller spread in scores between the KBIT-2 and the WISC-IV than between the original KBIT and the WISC-IV. (http://www.ecasd.k12.wi.us/student_services/assessments/KBIT-2.pdf says 1-3 points, which is consistent with the 4 points your tester's seen.)

The CogAt is timed for 3rd grade and up - it looks like he ran out of time, or didn't attempt questions he wasn't sure of?

Is your district's G&T program really good, or your DS really unhappy in his current placement, that it's important that he be in the program? Our program is sort of lacking - it got called out in the district's last operational audit as a pointless waste of time and resources. OTOH, the school has been very good about looking at each kid as a whole kid, regardless of test scores or identification. If you can get what your kid needs without testing, I personally would not do a third test.

My DS7 was tested for both KBIT II and WISC IV.

His score for KBIT is 142 and WISC IV 147 Full scale.

He took the KBIT-2. That is good info regarding the difference in norms-thanks for sharing!!

The G&T is a weekly pullout-not phenomenal, but it does broaden horizons once you're in (specialized summer camps, competitions, etc., etc.) I have not pursued it before this year because he's been fine in the standard classroom, (well, academically that is, he has always been the wild child of the class per se). I also wasn't crazy about him missing 2-3 hours of class-time weekly. This year however I am seeing a decline in his grades (still straight A's but barely A's, example grades will be 100,100, 95 ,97,50) I'll ask what is the 50 all about?? And he'll say, oh I just didn't get to it, or some other excuse, almost like he doesn't care.

This year He is actually begging to be a part of the pullout program and brings it up weekly. I've tried to talk it down to make him lose interest but it hasn't worked : ( It doesn't help that most of his best buds go to the program. All of this began when he got a perfect score on the state standardized test last spring in Math and near perfect on some other subtests. When he didn't pass the CoGat we were kind of scratching our heads, simply because of the discrepancy in achievement. It appears that he ran out of time on the CoGat. They hand score the Cogat tests in our school district, so we never received any formal scores, profiles, etc., just a notice of non-passing and a few numbers.

It definitely seems like he is hitting the ceiling achievement-wise this year-when we met with his teacher for p/t conferences she told us that "we really don't know his reading level, because the test we give only goes up to 9th grade level, so his reading level is somewhere at or above the 9th grade" He's motivated by goals, but once he hits them (usually early) he's not getting more goals from the teachers and he loses motivation.

He will enter middle school next year and they do not offer advanced classes until 7th grade, so I think the program would definitely be good for 5th and 6th grades, if nothing else to meet/be with peers. The school is much larger / crowded than his Elem. school and I worry about him slipping through the cracks. We've applied for a magnet but it's a lottery after you make the academic requirement. Keeping fingers crossed on that one. Wow I'm rambling! Sorry! I'll stop now : )

Purpleviolin thanks for sharing your scores- That is in line with what the original screener told us. How were your DS7's processing/memory scores? If we do decide to pursue the WISC IV, I'm a little worried that my DS9 might have issues with speed seeing as how he ran out of time on the CoGat.
Thanks again for your replies!

If your child has processing issues on the WISC-IV, the tester can calculate the GAI, which takes out the effect of processing speed and working memory. If slow processing really is an issue for your son, that would be good information to have, as if it is a real bottleneck, he might need a 504 plan and accommodations of extra time, decreased copywork, etc., so that the volume of work doesn't get overwhelming as he accelerates.

Excellent point aculady. I wasn't even thinking about the long-term effects of processing setbacks, and you are absolutely right-this could be great info to have. I will be sure to request the GAI if we do the WISC. The original KBIT screener recommended the WISC, due to the fact that we are trying to make school decisions for next year and the detailed info would be helpful. I think I am leaning more toward having it done as the pros of testing seem to outweigh the cons. I did get word from the school psychologist that they are going to do an IQ test, but I am not sure which one. Also, I am not sure of her level of experience with G&T. The psychologist who did the KBIT was outside of the school system to screen for a program for talented youth at a local university, so this tester dealt only with G&T kids. I am not even sure if the school will give me the results or even explain them - they seem to be so busy I can barely get anyone to return my phone calls! Wondering now if I should skip the school testing and go private with the original screener, who I definitely trust. Thanks again for the great insight!

Sometimes gifted kids do take longer than typical kids on assessments, but our school psych rarely gave a WISC that took longer than about an hour. On the other hand, I usually took at least two hours on the WIAT-II.

The kids usually kind of enjoy it because they get a better mix of too easy/too difficult/just right questions and much more one-on-one attention than they are used to getting in school.

You might want to find out if the school will accept private testing without their own testing - our school was willing to look at our private eval but still insisted on doing their own eval. I think before making a decision it's worth asking the school pscyhologist which IQ test she administers, and also verifying which tests are required and accepted with the gifted program coordinator (or whoever would be involved and know the answer). If you do have testing through the school they probably won't offer up the subtest scores etc, but you can absolutely request them and have to give them to you. What the school most likely won't give you is an in-depth analysis of what any observed scatter means, and the school psychologist will probably not explain what any of the subtests mean, so if you ever find yourself in a team meeting at school and want to emphasize a need based on a specific subtest score, you need to know for yourself how the subtest works and what the subtest results mean in the overall picture for your child.

You'll most likely get a much more thorough report and understanding of your child's scores from a private evaluator.

polarbear

Thanks for the tip Beckee- One hour is much less daunting than three!

Thanks for your advice polarbear. It sounds like keeping the ball rolling with the school psychologist is a good idea right now, then maybe schedule outside testing if needed. The reason I was thinking one or the other was because I've heard you can only test with the same instrument/test once per year. Did your private tester use a different test than the school? How much time was there in between tests? I will try to find out what test the school uses and let her know ahead of time I'd like a copy of the results if possible. They usually don't let parents know when they test-they simply pull the student out of class when the child gets to the top of their list. Thanks again for your replies- this has been a tough road to navigate and it is so nice to get input from others who have been through this!

[quote=

Purpleviolin thanks for sharing your scores- That is in line with what the original screener told us. How were your DS7's processing/memory scores? If we do decide to pursue the WISC IV, I'm a little worried that my DS9 might have issues with speed seeing as how he ran out of time on the CoGat.
Thanks again for your replies! [/quote]

Sorry I have not been coming here recently. DS7 Has good memory score but much lower processing speed (109 Maybe), which made his GAI 157.

My dd took the KBIT-2 and WISC IV when she was 6. Her KBIT composite score was 131, and her WISC FSIQ score was 138 (140 with extended measures) and her GAI was 142 (or 146 with extended measures). It is really hard to predict from one test to another it seems.

Purpleviolin-thanks for the input!

Nutmeg-thanks for sharing your scores! It really does vary from test to test.

Hoping that the KBIT was an underestimate rather than overestimate.

He'll be testing with the school psychologist in the coming weeks; not sure which instrument, but hoping it goes well.

Thanks again for your replies!

I just found out that the school psychologist will give my ds9 the RIAS.
I am unfamiliar with this test; does anyone have any experience/ input on this particular test?

The RIAS is a favorite for schools, because it can be given in just 20 minutes or so. It only has four subtests, and they basically keep giving the kids questions until they hit some predetermined discontinue threshold.

It can lead to underestimation if the kid hits the discontinue threshold early, because they can be pretty low... like two consecutive incorrect answers.

Thanks for the info Dude : ) The school Psychologist tested him yesterday, so I am guessing I will get results in the next week or so. I'm a little nervous to get the results; hoping for the best-well, mainly hoping for consistency with his original screener-I'm tired of trying to solve mysteries when scores don't seem to add up!
Thanks again for your reply!

DD was tested with the RIAS and her results were a bit odd--96th-99th% on 3 subtests and 50th or so on the 4th. I do wonder what the deal was there but the scores were good enough to get her into the GT school she attends. I would have preferred a longer test, but it seems the RIAS is a decent instrument, anyway.

They use the RIAS here as well (I think the entire state does) and it ended up being an underestimate for my son. I believe thats because of training of the tester in the area of really gifted children and the fact that it's a super quick test with ceilings. The results from it did give us the extra push we needed to seek someone with more experience and knowledge on gifted children though! The school tester did not give much information other than that he qualified for the gifted program (what there is of one) and that he had really high scores.
I hope you are able to get some resolve with the two sets of scores and at least solve a piece of the mystery. Don't pace too much while waiting:)

ultramarina-that is very curious about the 4th subtest. I wonder if it was the discontinue threshold as "dude" mentioned above.

triplejmom-thanks for the feedback; sounds like trusting your instinct was right on in this case! Thankfully, I'm a little less stressed about the results as I just found out that my DS9 was accepted to the academic middle magnet school for next year. This is not a "gifted" school but there was an academic achievement requirement, followed by a lottery. This lessens my concern for him to be in the G&T pullout program as this will be a fairly rigorous school-I'm just hoping he can keep up the pace! Still waiting on the RIAS results but not as anxious now : ) Thanks again for your replies!

My son's RIAS scores were significantly higher than his WISC-IV scores, largely due to his WISC-IV scores being depressed by significant visual-motor disabilities and Asperger's syndrome. The RIAS did a much better job of capturing the level of "intellectual horsepower" and reasoning ability that we saw at home, due to the lack of motor output required, the clearer format of the visual items, and the lack of social comprehension questions, while the WISC did a better job of showing his areas of weakness and identifying what areas needed further assessment.

So I finally got word from the school psychologist that he does qualify for the gifted program, but she still hasn't given me the RIAS/test scores. He took the test nearly 3 weeks ago and after hearing nothing, I finally emailed her earlier this week to follow up-that's when I found out he qualified. He went to the pullout program for the first time this week, but I still haven't met with anyone to discuss any of his results, etc. This whole process has really been a constant tug of war it seems. I hate to badger them but it actually took 6 months just to have him tested! Wondering how long it will be before the IEP meeting will actually happen! I hope he enjoys the pullout program because this has really taken more effort than I had ever imagined and much more waiting than I had ever imagined! Has anyone else had this type of waiting/delay in testing and test results in the public school system? Wondering if this is typical lag time due to under-staffing and large student population.

Congratulations on getting your ds into the program!

FWIW you might have to request the scores to get them - our district doesn't give them to parents unless you ask.

polarbear

Thanks polarbear! The psych told me via email that I would get a copy of everything-but she also told me the the special ed teacher would coordinate a meeting, then when I contacted the special ed teacher she said the school psych would coordinate the meeting-kind of a "who's on first, what's on second" ordeal of sorts....so, I think I'll take your advice and go ahead and create a records request letter to be on the safe side. I'm just not sure if I need to submit to the school or the district office. Thanks again for the tip : )

So...here's the latest. I received an envelope from school today and was hoping it would be the RIAS scores, but it wasn't. It was an invitation to participate in the Duke TIP (Explore Test). I have heard of this test, but I thought it was given at the 8th grade level. My DS9 is in 4th grade. Does anyone have any experience with this test? Is it worth paying the $35 and however many hours of testing? After reading the pamphlet it kind of sounds to me like an undercover way for Duke to identify bright kids at a young age and track them so that they can recruit for college? Or is that just me? I did see one advantage: writing competitions. My DS9 has written a couple of short stories and this might be an advantage but other than that I'm confused as to what the benefits are (other than "recognition"). Can anyone speak to their own experiences with this particular test? I might start a new thread on this one. Thanks in advance!

You can use the search function to find previous info. on Explore. I absolutely thought it was well worth it for dd to take the Explore last year as a 4th grader--it made it clear that I had been underestimating her ability and was valuable information for me as a parent and for the school to have. I would hope it would be useful going forward as she transitions to public middle school in advocating for appropriate challenge--that remains to be seen--but I am glad she took it last year and she is scheduled to take it again in February. It won't be as useful this time in the English section, but I am interested in seeing her progress in the other areas of the test.

Slightly tangential: What kind of detail do you get back after Explore?

Would they tell you things like "great vocabulary, weakness in reading comprehension, makes computation errors but strong on math concepts" or do they just give scores for each of the four tests?

DeeDee

DeeDee,
Last year she did it through Belin Blank and got a multi-page (I think >5 pages) report on strengths, suggestions for the teacher, all kinds of info.--I can't really remember the details, but it was a lot. No idea what Duke does--she is taking it through Duke in Feb.

Thanks, good to know.

DeeDee

Duke TIP has a talent search program for 4th and 5th grade students as well as the more widely known 7th/8th grade talent search. TIP program kids get access to online classes with other gifted kids, reduced rates on Duke's Independent Learning materials, the chance to participate in the writing the contest you mentioned, and out-of level test scores that can help with appropriate placement decisions at school, among other things. Starting in 7th grade, TIP participants can attend in-person college-level summer programs with other gifted kids hosted either at Duke or a few sister institutions.

My DS15 has participated in Duke TIP since 7th grade, and really enjoys the chance to interact with other gifted kids who have similar interests. He keeps in touch online with a number of the kids he's taken classes with. I'd say the best parts of the program are the opportunity to access above-level learning and the opportunity to meet other kids who are more likely to be true peers.

First question is where do you live... a big city or rural area. I only ask that because I've scrutinized the KBIT and a good many of the questions on it are slanted to a child from an urban background.

Depending on the age and just how far he progressed on the riddles or verbal section he could have been hit with some riddles and words that were really what I would call targeted to certain people at the expense of others.

Does he know what an elevator is, what graffiti is, who Rosa Parks was... If he does then I wouldn't expect him to have been adversely scored... but if he isn't familiar with those then you can pretty much guarantee he missed 3 questions just because he wasn't raised in New York City.

Frankly I believe those types OF questions are put on the test for reasons beyond making the test accurate. The WISC-IV wouldn't have these types of problems.

My brother-in-law absolutely loved the Duke TIP program when he did it. I haven't heard anything bad about it from anyone.

I'm new to the site as of today, but wondered if you got a response on this? This is the reason I joined. I got the same brochure home with my son, 4th grade too, and didn't know if it was worth participating or not? If you could share your experience, I would reall appreciate. Thanks!

Thanks for all the input on the TIP. I've done some searching as well and it looks like the majority of benefits come at the 7th grade level and above (summer program). Also, I found out that the 4th/5th grade search allows for Explore testing in 5th or 6th grade (not 4th-although identification happens at 4th), and does not include summer camp options but does have some other benefits. So- he won't be testing this year but next. I am hoping that he will make the cut at the 7th grade level to do the summer programs. I'm assuming that there is a score requirement at 7th grade and above on the Explore test to participate in the summer camps/programs?

If you wanted Explore results to help with advocacy or placement you can do it through Belin-Blank in 4th grade.
edited to add: in 7th grade they take the SAT. I will probably have dd11 take the SAT next year in 6th grade for practice.

Good to know! Thanks deacongirl!

I've used the KBIT-2 for the past four years as an individual ceiling-off test as part of the identification process for our pull-out twice weekly gifted program--and was satisfied until last year.

These test is orally (language arts) & visually (patterns/inductive reasoning) administered. I'm questioning its use for some nominated children because a student may score high in the two language test areas, but still have substantial difficulty writing/ getting thoughts on paper--an area our district is currently emphasizing. I collect work samples as well and am increasing the number of samples this year. Most of those with writing difficulties, but verbal adeptness, are boys with a strongly visual learning style.

I learn a great deal about the student's motivation, zest for challenge and risk-taking, and problem-solving strategies from observing the child during the testing process.

Irene L.

Thanks for the feedback Irene. We just had our IEP meeting yesterday and I received his testing scores from the school psychologist.
Here they are:
RIAS:
Verbal: 125 (95%)
NonVerbal: 118 (88%)
Composite: 123 (94th %)

He was accepted into the G/T pullout program based on their point matrix.
Is it safe to say that these RIAS scores are the better estimate of cognition than the original KBIT-2? (Composite of 134) I was a little surprised by the large difference in the two. The KBIT was done by a private gifted psychologist, and the RIAS was done by the school psychologist. Someone had mentioned that the RIAS can underestimate ability, but I've also read in some studies that the RIAS tends to score higher than the WISC. What surprised me most was the WJ Achievement scores. His lowest score was in math, whereas Math was his highest achievement score on the state test (99 percentile). Maybe he ran out of time on the WJ? Here are those scores:
Reading: 93 percentile
Math: 77 Percentile
Academic Knowledge: 96 Percentile.

Could I gain anything from having the WISC done? Or is this testing sufficient based on his scores? I'm thinking that there isn't a need for the WISC at this point since he was admitted into the G/T program but not really sure.

I would say that a RIAS of 123 and a K-BIT of 134 is a rather significant spread... and since the RIAS does have a tendency to underestimate, I'd say that result is suspect.

I'd say that the question of whether you should pursue further testing depends on your goals. You already have two tests that identify your child as requiring gifted education services, and the school has agreed to provide them. So if that was the goal, I'd say mission accomplished.

Both tests are of the quick-screening variety, so if there's a reason you might need more data, then I'd push on to the WISC. Reasons might include the school not doing enough for him and using his RIAS score as justification, suspected learning disability, desire to qualify him for DYS, etc.

Hmmm. You bring up an interesting point. I did waive my right to a special education IEP program yesterday due to his RIAS scores. They said that these services are reserved for the higher scoring individuals that truly need an additional plan (She did not give a specific score range, but I'm assuming she was referring to the HG population). I am OK with this at this point. His teacher was present and she was in agreement that going to the pullout program would be sufficient for him at this time. This is his last year in elementary (4th grade) and he will go to an academic magnet middle next year, so I feel that he will be sufficiently challenged there. He has maintained a straight A average over the last three years, so I do not suspect a learning disability. Processing speed is the only thing that I have been concerned about, due to performance on timed tests, but I do not think it is hindering him enough to be a major issue at this point. He is however entering a new academic magnet middle school next year, so if there were a chance that there was any disability, etc., it would be good to know before we move into the more "rigorous" curriculum. I'm thinking we could cross that bridge when it comes though, so probably no need for the WISC at this time. Thanks for the feedback!