So my DD6 just started first grade. I met with the gifted teacher at her school yesterday, and she took me through the 3 phases of identification for the gifted program. Phase 1 being identifying a need and providing differentiation in the classroom. Phase 2 is pulling her out of the classroom and offering enrichment as necessary and Phase 3 is IQ testing and identification of gifted and then the IEP is put into place. In our district b/c there are so many bright kids you must test in the 99th percentile on the WISC-III (score 140) in order to qualify. In the process they are also gathering tons of data from teachers, MAP testing, etc. (This all started last year, she's got a file of some poetry she wrote during center time last year in kindergarten, etc.)

So, my DD is in Phase 2 -- in kindergarten she was pulled out twice per week and will continue some sort of enrichment for this year but it hasn't been decided yet. She also gave me a parent survey they use for identification to fill out, and they have her 99% MAP scores from last spring as well.

I've never been in a huge hurry to test as long as her needs were being met, but to really dig in and get full services you do need to be identified. And the school psychologist really feels strongly you wait until age 8. Well, my DD is a late July birthday (youngest in the class, along with the smartest in the class, which makes it hard), and so 8 years old is 3rd grade for her which seems like a long time to wait -- and her gifted teacher agreed.

It sounds like she wants me to either request testing be done sooner or wait and see if her teacher makes the request. I am curious what you all think? At 6 years, 1 month, would it be helpful for me to even wait until January maybe in order to test? Because she needs such a high score to get services I am wondering if waiting will help her to achieve that?

The teacher said DD is a bit of an "outlier" in that it was the first time she was pulled in to help a child at the kindergarten level, so she could see testing early -- and given that DD is so young for her grade, I am stumped.

I want her to score well. She's one of those kids we've known was gifted since she was a baby, but honestly I can't imagine she'd really be a 140?? How do you know?? I mean, she knew her alphabet by sight at 16 months -- talking at 6.5 months. Reading sight words at 2, and full books at 3 years, 2 months, and started chapter books the summer she turned 4. She's also testing 99% on math MAPs even though we've never enriched math. I am just not sure.

I am sorry this is so long. Any advice on when to test? Now? In 6 months? Wait until 2nd grade? Wait until age 8? Thanks so much!!

You have nothing to loose by asking for the testing now. (Unless she has a sort of squirly personality, and is likely to 'mess with the tester's head just for the fun of it - in which case wait until she knows how to be serious at times.)

She'd be judged against other young 6 year olds when the score is calculated.

If she really is an outlier, and needs a gradeskip or several subject accelerations, I think that is easier when the peers and younger and more 'go with the flow.' I also think that kids who need to be skipped are usually (not always) happier socially with 'readiness-mates' as well.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Based on that description, I'd be surprised if her IQ were significantly lower than 140, although GooglePsychometrist indicates that the WISC-III has a time component, so if she's a slow-deep kid, that's a consideration. The WISC-III is an older test, so could be expected to overstate IQ compared to the latest revision, which works in your favor here.

I personally wouldn't expect waiting to either help or hurt.

Maybe double check with someone - the school has probably updated to using WISC - IV...
It is 'easier' to score 140 on WISC-III than it is on WISC-IV, so don't worry if they haven't
Good luck,
Grinity

My 9yo outlier had similar reading/language baby milestones. I'm really glad we had her tested at 6.

Schools are usually pretty conservative about testing and accommodations, so if they are suggesting testing... It sucks to have to negotiate accommodation for your dc when they are under duress. It takes forever and is nerve wracking for everyone.

Doing the testing while things are going well sounds wonderful. I would go for it!

Great point. There is a lot of wisdom in this. A lot.

Mr W's milestones are just a bit later than your DD. I know two kids whose milestones were a few months later than his and their FSIQs were > 140. So, I think you have a good shot to make the cutoff.

I'd get her tested. Then you can argue about facts with the school district and also gain some feedback from the psych and other parents with kids on the same scale.

why not test? DS tested a 150 at age 4.5 and tested again at age 8 or 9 at 160. does the 150 or 160 make a big diff on what the programs can do? no. Test now with the 140 and join DYS, there's a good enough reason to do it now! (BTW i only retested because we moved and the new gifted school needed current testing, less than 2 years old)

Hey guys -- this is me, KansasMom -- the original poster. I created a new user name when I thought that's why my threads weren't working -- sorry for the confusion. Thanks so much for all of this information -- it is invaluable!! I appreciate the encouragement for testing. I am not really open to a grade skip considering she is already the youngest in the class, and as it is our schools are quite good. I imagine they are teaching about a grade level above already, which is why the standards for gifted education are so high. I am glad to know you think that 140 could be a possibility. I am thinking I will let the school year get into full swing, and see what they have planned for her as far as enrichment goes, and then maybe ask for testing in a few months? I know they will do MAPs again in Sept. And maybe they will move forward with testing on their own?

I am going to start filling out the survey for the school -- I am so curious what types of things they are asking about!

Oh, and yes, I pulled out the paperwork and apparently it is the WISC-IV. So what is the obsession with age 8 if it really makes no difference? And can I trust the school psychologist to be a strong and reliable tester??

My DS is the same age as your DD, July of 2005. He recently took the WISC IV and had a blast taking it I would have guessed 140 to be an accurate IQ for my son, but it was much higher. You never know! I would request testing.

The obsession with age 8 is that IQ scores are more stable after that age, as older children are more likely to be capable of taking instructions from parents and testers to do their best seriously after that age, and are less likely to have as great a negative impact from an "off" day. Testing after age 8, when children have been in school for a few years, also wipes out some of the impact of differences in early reading and math exposure at very young ages, so it gives gifted children from deprived backgrounds who have not had early in-home experiences with these areas time to acquire more crystallized knowledge, whereas they might not test as high if they were tested as they first entered school.

Unfortunately, you can't rely on the school psychologist to be a strong and reliable tester. You might get lucky, you might not.

So interesting...fun there is another July '05 kiddo here! Do you mind if I ask what made you think 140 would be about the score he might get?? I am just so stumped about this and I guess a little nervous -- after knowing she was "different" her whole life, what if I was wrong all along? Does that ever happen? Would a kid be very precarious this way and yet have an average IQ? Or maybe a "mildly gifted" score? I do not think that me or my husband are gifted -- though I would for sure say we are bright and talented in art and writing -- so maybe?? My younger daughter does not have ANY of these early milestones, which is why it is even more obvious that DD6 is different?

My DS walked "early" at 10 months, but he didnt speak until 26 months. My IQ was tested as a child at 139, and my son is a lot like me. He has some "quirks" though so we thought probably low 140's. We did an short IQ test through the school and he scored >160. I was nervous when we did the assesment testing and the WISC IV that maybe the first test was just a fluke, but his GAI on the WISC IV was at 159. He is also my oldest so I really had nothing to compare him too. I just figured he liked to learn like some little kids liked to play games, lol.

My older son was identified as gifted through screening at the request of his kindergarten teacher. I wanted him to be "normal" (ha ha - I was still naive about the idea of a gifted kid being normal), so we pulled him out and put him in a academically driven private school. He returned to public school in mid-school, and I finally had to fight the school to get him tested for gifted after he began misbehaving in 7th grade and decided to mess with a teacher's head who told him he should've been smarter about something - he chose to get zeros on every assignment and test while still completing every question. The counselor thought he needed therapy; I knew he needed testing. It's hard to convince a school counselor to request gifted testing for a kid who is getting zeros in all of his classes. (He missed 2 questions on the screening test and went on to qualify as gifted in all three exceptionalities. The gifted classes and IEP saved us. He's now a freshman in college studying mechanical engineering.)

I tell you this long story so that you'll understand why I suggest you request the testing now. Get it on the books and have her tested when it's a positive thing.

Based on our experience, a very bright 8 year old doing the WISC IV may well find they've hit the ceilings on several of the subtests. WIth a very even profile it may not make a lot of overall difference to the final score. But if he has lows that aren't offset by the true height of the highs, the overall IQ score will be artificially lowered.

This means you're not getting a full picture of his abilities (and corresponding needs) and I've found it is almost impossible to explain to officialdom what the score means.

As a 6 year old, the liklihood of hitting ceilings is lower.

This is a very real issues with Outlier-ish-ly Gifted kids.
Also she's happy now - there is no gaureentee she'll be as happy in 4 months - that's just life.
Also she'll have fun and enjoy it.
Also - can't she take it again at 8 if she needs to?
Also - Read up on acceleration. DH and I also had that same idea, if we pick a great district with great education then even a bright kid will get their needs met. NOT

Recommend '5 Levels of Giftedness' by Deb Ruf
and a free download - http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/nation_deceived/

So the answer - for us - was that 'Gifted' comes in many shades and levels. And gifted kids have a variety or personalities. We were lucky in that my son's personality was such that he felt that he deserved to learn new things every day and he was going to 'make waves' until that happened. I'm so grateful that he happened to be born that way - as I already assumed that school isn't for learning until High School at the earliest, and that like me, kids had to be molded into dealing with the needs of the many. Ok, I called it 'being a good classroom citizen, doesn't that sound better?

But anyway, other kids with other personalities react in other ways.
Some, like my DH, aren't very interested in what other kids are doing and find a way to challenge themselves and make the most of any academic situation, and are basically fine.

Others, who are more high in 'EQ' (emotional IQ scale) just find ways to blend in, underachieve, and get so used to everything coming to them easily, that when the work finally starts to get hard, and it doesn't come 'instantly' then they give up and conclude that everyone was wrong about their smartness. That's the scary one, and young females are - in my observation - particularly vulnerable to falling into this category.

No matter what you decide, be ready - the school is 'aware' that among your local batch of bright and gifted kids, she's an outlier. She may be much better off with agemates, she may be better off with kids (gulp) one, 2,3 or more years older. Time will tell. Flexibility is key. You've found a corner of the internet where the far right end of the bell curve tail is explored and 'outlier' kids are the norm. Doesn't it always depend on the denominator?

My son is 15 now, has a July birthday, our public school system has many bright kids but many fewer gifted and highly gifted ones. Even at the local private school that attracts the local 'bright/college bound/Doctor's kids' crowd - he needed a skip in the elementary years to get traction enough to learn how to learn. He's also got ADD, so for high school we deceled to allow him time for those organizational skills to develop. Flexibility has been key. But he's happy now, and working hard, and has friends, and doing well academically, and (usually) a good classroom citizen! ((pinching self and warding off evil eye))
Golly it's hard to say the good stuff without feeling like the other foot is going to drop....
((shrugs and more shrugs))

Grinity

I also say test now, if she doesn't get 140, retest her in a year or two.

Testing has been no biggie for my DS, he was tested twice last year (WPPSI & SB-V) and enjoyed it both times.

All very good points -- this is so super helpful! I need to get to the place where testing is "no big deal" you know? I do have one of those kids who is not very forthcoming about her knowledge - she was shy to read in front of people when she first started and she isn't loud and showy in class. In fact, she could really care less who she impresses, and I don't think she sees her intelligence as a "tool" for success at all. I think to her it is simply an part of who she is and she's learned to completely blend in, and so unless you knew you'd almost never know. Of course until you actually pay attention. So, she will get lost in the shuffle if I don't insist on more for her and she will eventually be hit upside the head when something is actually hard for her and she will dumb down herself in order to fit in and it ia kind of sad that at age 6 I already feel like so many good years of learning have not been used to their full potential.

I am sure you are right -- maybe I'll finish the parent survey and when I turn it in say that I've done something thinking and I'd like to move forward with testing. Why let more years go by?

Yippee! Great that she is good at blending in - and one wishes that a careful observer would see the difference, so lucky you are in a district with trained careful observers - honestly, in most places, most 'mere mortal' types won't see it now matter how carefully they look.

Remember the old addage 'when you believe it, you'll see it!' I think that is a built-in function of the human mind. We see it,so we project that others are 'like us' enough to see it too. But even we parents of gifties spend a lot of energy in denial - both that average others are 'like us' and that our kids a 'just being cute' when they act so far away from age expectations.

It is what it is - I'm grateful that you happen to be located in a school district with excellent trained observers and that you are getting in there at a young enough age to make a huge difference.

Fill out that paper-work, and make a copy of it, just incase you are filling out DYS paperwork soon-soon. ((wink))
Grinity

Sometimes it's a bit strange how these wildly dissimilar kids come up with such similar patterns of reacting to the classic challenges of bening outliers. It isn't that I know your DD personally, it's that I know 'what anyone facing her challenges in her situation might do.' Speaking as a female, there is a lot of biological pressure to fitting in! I'm one of those people who believes that for most of us, we are built so that the biologically smart thing is also what feels good. Maybe males reproduce better if they make a habit of standing out, showing off, and not fitting in, but I doubt those stratagies help females nurture children succesfully except in rare circumstances.

And that also explains why we moms have to fight our own personalities to advocate successfully. It just isn't easy to say 'hey, my kid needs something different that what's working for all the other kids. Let's step out of the box and do something different!'
See what I mean?
Grinity

I was lucky that her kindergarten teacher's daughter was a gifted kid so that helped, too. Though it is quite shocking I am sure when you sit down with a new kindergartener to do a simple reading screening and she gets through the fifth grade level and the teacher doesn't have anymore books b/c elementary school only goes to 5th grade. : ) Even still her kindie teacher had the "old" mindset that you could not possibly know if a kid were gifted until 3rd grade. I am guessing that is when her daughter was identified. And since she is grown now that would have been many monons ago.

Grinity -- what is the DYS paperwork? And is there an IQ cut off for that? I do think that I have gotten used to some of DDs abilities so it isn't as "scary" as it once was and therefore I tend to think maybe her learning curve has leveled out? I have always been told though to just let a kid be a kid and leave her alone, and just so many mixed messages in general that make me doubt myself and my assessment of her. You know?

Gosh, this is just so awesome to get a pep talk if nothing else!

Srry -
DYS info:http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/
DYS qualifying scores:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx

They are 4 points higher than your local school district, but more generous in that a child needs to be high in only Verbal, Performance or GAI to qualify if they have supporting achievement scores.

Great thing about DYS is that they understand that one needen't be gifted 'across the board' to have special educational needs.

I totally know, and still go though this myself!
Part of it is because people always thing of themselves as normal and project their reality onto other regularly - and most unusually gifted kids have unusually gifted parents.

The reason for the mixed messages, I think, is that our kids are rare. So what works well for most families isn't nescessarily going to work for us. And the things that work for families like us isn't going to be talked about at the local school pickup line.

It's really admirable that your teacher tested all the way up to 5th grade. I keep reading stories here of teachers who tested up to a full grade above current and stopped because 'well, we aren't going to do anything about it anyway so why bother?'

Up until recently, most of the focus on 'gifted' has been on 'gifted' as a single group - with perhaps some focus on females, gay, 2nd language, poor backround, or gifted plus LD/ADHD. There hasn't been much attention to the effect of 'levels of giftedness' and the difference that makes, so usually folks will see your gifted kid and start reeling off advice for the local average gifted kid. As if starting Kindy reading at all, vs. 5th grade, vs. 9th grade, vs. college textbook didn't matter at all. Now you are going to think I'm fibbing, because isn't this obvious? But when one considers the shape of the tail on the bell curve, one sees that 2/3rd of kids will be right up against any cut off line one chooses to draw. and the rest will be quite skewed towards the fat numerous middle, rather than out on the spindly end.

BTW that reminds me - see if the tester knows about 'extended scoring' (It was published in 2008, therefore it's still 'new' and often overlooked)

- when the WISC IV was first developed they did their best to (LOL) 'solve the problem' of high LOG kids by erasing their existience and making 160 the hard upper limit. Thankfully this issue has been raised and solved with something called 'extended scoring' - let the tester know that such thing exists, and that you want it used if it's indicated for your dd.

http://www.pearsonassessments.com/N...C-8E4A114F7E1F/0/WISCIV_TechReport_7.pdf

here's the link

Smiles,
Grinity

http://www.pearsonassessments.com/N...C-8E4A114F7E1F/0/WISCIV_TechReport_7.pdf

So, I did reach out to a mom of a friend of my three year old DD who I know has a 2nd grade boy who has been identified in our district (not the same school) and we're going over there for dinner on Fri nite so I can hear more about her experience. I believe he was tested in first grade. So that will be good to hear about.

It is interesting b/c we did have a private (Jewish Day School) option that we seriously considered. It would have been Hebrew immersion which I believe she would have LOVED as well as testing right off the bat in kindergarten, but even still I was not convinced her gifted ed options were as meaty, if that makes sense? It is one gifted teacher rather than one for every school and an entire program lead by the district. You know? So it would have been quite one-sided from this one teacher's perspective. And she had K-12 grade as well. So, it is our fall-back, but I am hoping public will be the better bet for us.